The New Panasonic G100 “vlogging” Camera to launch June 24th

[DAEMANO]

On 6/27/2020 at 2:45 PM, Andrew Reid said:

This video literally repulses me

The way she dodges the crop factor specs is just one of the horrible things in it (5:20)

Johnny being the other!

Maybe she doesn't answer because as a professional reviewer Johnny should do some research before asking a dumb question. All competing cameras in this class have a horrible 4k crop with or without stabilization (in the case of the XT-200, there is no 4k stabilization at all.) The G100's 4k crop is far better than the M50's (see below.) The reason for this is probably straight up physics. 

From DPReview below are the competitors in this space - Interchangeable Lens Cameras with stabilization and greater than 1" sensor (either a 4/3rds or APS-C sensors) + 1" sensor, fixed lens cameras because someone will inevitably bring it up (even though 1" sensor cameras compete more closely with cell phones that larger sensor ILCs.)

4K Crop vs full width

Panasonic G100 (4/3 sensor, ILC)

EIS Off: 1.26x
EIS Std: 1.37x
EIS High: 1.79x

Canon EOS M50 (APS-C sensor, ILC)

IS Off: 1.55x
IS Std: 1.73x
IS High: 2.22x

Fujifilm XT-200 (APS-C sensor, ILC)

No Image Stabilization of any kind (digital gimball) available in 4k: so 1.00x

"Digital Gimbal differs from conventional electronic stabilization by using the camera's gyro sensor to smooth out exceptionally shaky video. This feature is only for Full HD because there is a decent-sized crop from the total sensor area, but it works pretty well, as you'll see in the video section of the review. Note that only a few lenses are compatible with the digital gimbal feature at this time: the XC 15-45mm, XC 16-50mm, XF 16mm F2.8 and XF 18mm F2."

Sony ZV-1 (1" sensor, fixed lens)

IS Off: 1.08
IS Std: 1.08
IS High: 1.19

Canon G7 mk III (1"sensor, fixed lens)

IS Off: 1.00
IS Std: 1.11x
IS High: 1.43x

1080p Crop vs full width

Panasonic G100 (4/3 sensor, ILC)

EIS Off: 1.00x
EIS Std: 1.09x
EIS High: 1.43x

Canon EOS M50 (APS-C sensor, ILC)

IS Off: 1.00x
IS Std: 1.11x
IS High: 1.43x

Fujifilm XT-200 (APS-C sensor, ILC)

No data published by DPReview just a mention about how bad the 1080p crop is, anyone care to find it?

"Digital gimbal is a powerful electronic image stabilization system that works at 1080/30p and below, and is designed for situations with extreme shake, like when you're walking. There's a substantial crop, but the results are really impressive, as you can see below. There's a step down midway near the end of the sequence, which you barely notice with the gimbal effect on. Something else worth a mention in this demo is some noticeable rolling shutter. The X-T200 has a regular digital image stabilization mode that can be used for 4K, but we wouldn't recommend it due to the very noticeable 'jello' distortion."

Sony ZV-1 (1" sensor, fixed lens)

IS Off: 1.00x
IS Std: 1.00x
IS High: 1.09x

Canon G7 mk III (1"sensor, fixed lens)

IS Off: 1.00x
IS Std: 1.11x
IS High: 1.43x

[thebrothersthre3]

Camera conspiracies is great, though I've been following him since his vegan days in Thailand. He's just a silly every day guy with a very quirky sense of humor. He's very honest and non corporate which is endearing. 

I really don't know why someone can't make an ideal vlogging camera. Panasonic is pretty much just phase detect AF away from doing it. Though I agree something like the GH5S with IBIS and better AF would be pretty ideal. 

[IronFilm]

14 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

I don't even mean to encourage them to just take a GX85 and add a flip screen and mic, because that'd have been bullshit too, but it'd still be much better than what they did with the G100. 

Absolutely, that would have been a better camera! And they could probably have priced it more aggressively too than the G100? 

[Andrew Reid]

11 hours ago, DAEMANO said:

All competing cameras in this class have a horrible 4k crop with or without stabilization (in the case of the XT-200, there is no 4k stabilization at all.)

You don't need to keep using bolt font to make your point.

This is one of the most knowledgable forums on the internet when it comes to 4K video and mirrorless.

The Fuji X-A7 is in the same class and doesn't have a horrible 4K crop. Oversampling from 6K, S35 sensor size. Flip screen for vlogging and cheaper than G100.

The stabilisation with the Fuji 18-55mm F2.8-4 is very good too.

11 hours ago, DAEMANO said:

From DPReview below are the competitors in this space

Read the forum rules about DPReview links please and don't post more.

11 hours ago, DAEMANO said:

Panasonic G100 (4/3 sensor, ILC)

Canon EOS M50 (APS-C sensor, ILC)

Fujifilm XT-200 (APS-C sensor, ILC)

None of these cameras exactly set the world on fire.

Barely even worth defending.

[SteveV4D]

11 hours ago, DAEMANO said:

 All competing cameras in this class have a horrible 4k crop with or without stabilization (in the case of the XT-200, there is no 4k stabilization at all.) 

4K Crop vs full width

Panasonic G100 (4/3 sensor, ILC)

EIS Off: 1.26x
EIS Std: 1.37x
EIS High: 1.79x

Canon EOS M50 (APS-C sensor, ILC)

IS Off: 1.55x
IS Std: 1.73x
IS High: 2.22x

Fujifilm XT-200 (APS-C sensor, ILC)

No Image Stabilization of any kind (digital gimball) available in 4k: so 1.00x

 

 

 

If you look at the review for the EOS M50, it is critical of the crop of the 4K.  And being a larger sensor, although the crop is bigger, the field of view will probably be slightly wider than the G100.

Either way, its not a defence of the G100 to bring up specs of another camera thats been critiqued also for its heavy 4K crop. 😄

And the Fuji doesn't have a horrible 4K crop without stabilsation, going by the figures you posted.

[Video Hummus]

M50 was still a huge success, why? It has decent AF. Panasonic should be throwing everything they have to either fix their DfD to make it reliable and less noticeable as possible or buy/acquire (or whatever is going on) PDAF. I’m sure they would sell many more cameras...

I have a feeling after R5 and especially after R6 if Canon can deliver decent 4K 10-bit with acceptable RS then Panasonic is even more irrelevant in the market.

I love my Panasonic cameras. They get a lot right to the point where you can overlook the AF performance, but even I would not buy a S series camera if there is something like an R6 that gives me what Panasonic has + reliable AF.

8 minutes ago, SteveV4D said:

And being a larger sensor, although the crop is bigger, the field of view will probably be slightly wider than the G100.

M50 is 1.6x base crop. 

[SteveV4D]

2 minutes ago, Video Hummus said:

 

M50 is 1.6x base crop. 

Fair enough.  I thought 1.5.  I was really looking at unstabilised; even at 1.6, it might be ever so slightly wider.  When stabilised, the G100 has the edge.  But only just.

At the end of the day though, doesn’t matter too much, I doubt anyone would buy these cameras for 4K.  Almost makes you wonder why add it in the first place.

[BTM_Pix]

I hope their pizzas don't come out as half baked as their camera did.

[Andrew Reid]

2 hours ago, Video Hummus said:

M50 was still a huge success, why? It has decent AF. Panasonic should be throwing everything they have to either fix their DfD to make it reliable and less noticeable as possible or buy/acquire (or whatever is going on) PDAF. I’m sure they would sell many more cameras...

I have a feeling after R5 and especially after R6 if Canon can deliver decent 4K 10-bit with acceptable RS then Panasonic is even more irrelevant in the market.

I love my Panasonic cameras. They get a lot right to the point where you can overlook the AF performance, but even I would not buy a S series camera if there is something like an R6 that gives me what Panasonic has + reliable AF.

M50 is 1.6x base crop. 

The M50 is 2.7x crop like Super 16mm in 4K.

The cut the 8MP window out of a 24MP sensor.

Panasonic cut the 8MP window out of a 20MP sensor on the G100.

It is about 2.8x crop in 4K. It used to be 2.3x when they cut 8MP out of 16MP on the GH4 and older 16 megapixel sensors.

Panasonic solves this issue ages ago and so have competitors.

The cheaper-than-G100 Olympus E-M10 Mark III does not do this 4K crop out - full width.

The Fuji X-A7 is also dirt cheap and can do full 6K oversampling, no crop in 4K.

Both are better options for bloggers than the G100 and superior in a technical sense too.

So Panasonic's marketing team should not be making excuses and pseudo-reps on this forum should know better than to try and mislead us quite frankly.

I have a lot of goodwill to Panasonic because it is well know what they did for enthusiast filmmaking and 4K on a budget. GH2, one of the all time classics. GH4, first 4K mirrorless. Today, the focus seems to be more on pros with S1H and GH5S, but still the S1 with VLOG 10bit upgrade is a total bargain for the image quality.

When Panasonic put out totally misguided and lame marketing (like the Cinema5D video for instance where she cannot even be honest about the crop factor in 4K) they lose a LOT of goodwill with people like you and me.

As a commentator and Panasonic user I cannot ignore such serious mistakes or gloss over them.

Regarding the Canon M50.

Yes, the M50 does seem to come high up the Amazon sales chart and the reason is this:

• Brand.
• It captures Canon users who can't afford the EOS RP - the mini "APS-C EOS RP" for cheap
• Overall value for money (specs for price).
• Vlogger crowd like the autofocus and 'good enough' feature set.
• Cheap kit lens
• For cash strapped enthusiasts, Chinese lenses on Amazon
• A lot of people can't justify $2000 for something better or even $1200+ for a Fuji X-T3 or Canon Rp.

Problem for Panasonic? The specs and features and brand and marketing are all perceived as superior to the G100.

M50 is not really an enthusiast camera, it is one of those VERY rare unicorns in 2020 - a successful consumer point & shoot with mass-market appeal. There is nothing particularly unique about it technologically, or in terms of ideas, innovation and design.

I also think successes with cheap cameras are harder and harder to come by - sometimes are complete fluke.

Perhaps only a brand like Canon or Sony can still pull it off. I don't know.

But if the G100 is a sales success I'll eat my hat.

Look at Nikon Z50. Superior technically to the M50 and also cheap but hardly selling at all from what I can tell!

[Video Hummus]

47 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

Look at Nikon Z50. Superior technically to the M50 and also cheap but hardly selling at all from what I can tell!

I forgot about the Z50. LOL

Like you said, Canon the brand name is pretty powerful. They could sit on theirs hands for years and still sell lukewarm cameras. Oh, wait...

[DAEMANO]

57 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

But if the G100 is a sales success I'll eat my hat.

 

IIRC Panasonic's best selling cameras in Japan are their GF line. The G100 improves on that line in every way. Get the ketchup on standby.  

[DAEMANO]

4 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

The Fuji X-A7 is in the same class and doesn't have a horrible 4K crop. Oversampling from 6K, S35 sensor size. Flip screen for vlogging and cheaper than G100.

The stabilisation with the Fuji 18-55mm F2.8-4 is very good too.

The XA-7 was introduced at MSRP $699, street price 6 months later is $499. Let's not play that game. We all know the G100 will likely do exactly the same thing.

Also, the XA-7 doesn't have a viewfinder and no Electronic Stab whatsoever. So not even trying EIS is a feature? I still see even a cropped EIS system as a benefit because I'm not always talking in front of the camera.

Undoubtedly if Panasonic dropped the viewfinder the pricing would have been less out the door. Including a good sized viewfinder was a decision made for photographers.

It will be a fine travel companion for those invested in the lens system even if it's doesn't introduce tons of bleeding edge tech. The new mic system and viewfinder are good though.

Look, I get it, Panasonic probably shouldn't have pushed the vlogging angle so hard, but the G100 is not a crap camera. It's the spiritual successor to a camera many people love (GM5). Agreed that Panasonic's marketing angle here was not the best, but looking at the image samples starting to make their way online now show that the G100 IQ will compare nicely to even the G9 which means it also stacks up well against the competition.

https://www.imaging-resource.com/IMCOMP/COMPS01.HTM

https://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/panasonic-g100/panasonic-g100GALLERY.HTM

[noone]

16 hours ago, DAEMANO said:

Maybe she doesn't answer because as a professional reviewer Johnny should do some research before asking a dumb question. All competing cameras in this class have a horrible 4k crop with or without stabilization (in the case of the XT-200, there is no 4k stabilization at all.) The G100's 4k crop is far better than the M50's (see below.) The reason for this is probably straight up physics. 

From DPReview below are the competitors in this space - Interchangeable Lens Cameras with stabilization and greater than 1" sensor (either a 4/3rds or APS-C sensors) + 1" sensor, fixed lens cameras because someone will inevitably bring it up (even though 1" sensor cameras compete more closely with cell phones that larger sensor ILCs.)

4K Crop vs full width

Panasonic G100 (4/3 sensor, ILC)

EIS Off: 1.26x
EIS Std: 1.37x
EIS High: 1.79x

 

Sony ZV-1 (1" sensor, fixed lens)

IS Off: 1.08
IS Std: 1.08
IS High: 1.19

 

1080p Crop vs full width

Panasonic G100 (4/3 sensor, ILC)

EIS Off: 1.00x
EIS Std: 1.09x
EIS High: 1.43x

 

Sony ZV-1 (1" sensor, fixed lens)

IS Off: 1.00x
IS Std: 1.00x
IS High: 1.09x

 

Or maybe he asked in light of the OTHER recent camera specifically aimed at vloggers?

You seem to dismiss the ZV1 but its crop is smaller WITH IS high than the G100 with it OFF in 4k and the same in IS high as the G100 in standard for 1080.

Care to list the bitrates in your next post?

1 inch sensors SHOULD compete more closely with phones (well not really) but in this case it betters the G100 in many ways and THAT is why it is a fail to me.

Oh and back to your saying it was the successor to the GM1 and GM5, (which Panasonic said isn't) this camera is LARGER than the ZV1 while both the GM1 and GM5 are SMALLER (without a lens) than the ZV1 .    Put it this way, I have an old Canon G10 high end P&S and it is not really pants pocketable (it will fit but with a large lump) and the G100 is larger in every dimension without a lens than it while the ZV1 as well as the GM1 and GM5 without lens WILL fit.

[newfoundmass]

1 hour ago, DAEMANO said:

It will be a fine travel companion for those invested in the lens system even if it's doesn't introduce tons of bleeding edge tech. The new mic system and viewfinder are good though.

Look, I get it, Panasonic probably shouldn't have pushed the vlogging angle so hard, but the G100 is not a crap camera.

What about it makes it a better travel camera than the GX85 or the GX9? Megapixels? Weight? C'mon. 

The G100: when 210 grams is just too heavy for you! Here's a camera that weighs less, costs more, and has fewer features!

[noone]

33 minutes ago, newfoundmass said:

What about it makes it a better travel camera than the GX85 or the GX9? Megapixels? Weight? C'mon. 

The G100: when 210 grams is just too heavy for you! Here's a camera that weighs less, costs more, and has fewer features!

Funny thing is the difference in weight between my FF camera and the G100 is LESS than the difference between the G100 and the GM1 or GM5  that he claims it succeeds.

[DAEMANO]

57 minutes ago, newfoundmass said:

What about it makes it a better travel camera than the GX85 or the GX9? Megapixels? Weight? C'mon. 

The G100: when 210 grams is just too heavy for you! Here's a camera that weighs less, costs more, and has fewer features!

Being a G9, GX85, G7, and G6 owner, I'll answer your concerns in their order and explain in good faith. 

1) Costs will come down

2) Fewer features than my GX85 in some places, and better features in others - This is a bigger deal than it might seem for me (Better Viewfinder , fully articulating screen, 20 MP sensor, and less weight/size - Worse stabilization (which I kind of don't need in most daytime shooting, 4k Crop (the 1080p footage I've seen looks great, so less of a worry))

3) Weight/size

With my gear the G100 improved sensor size, reduced physical size and weight all work together in tight spaces. So even though my GX85 is small, when day hiking or travelling every millimeter and ounce counts. Not so much on weight (although this does matter), but more because of size and ability to orient with other lenses in a small bag. If hiking for wildlife shooting I can currently fit my Lumix 12-60mm daytime zoom, 42mm f1.7 (with macro-ish capability), and 14-140 mm travel zoom in the bag. At the long end, I crop (externally in post or internally with Ex.TelCon) if I need framing beyond 140mm FOV. Still that doesn't add detail into the image.

Instead, with the smaller G100 body, I could instead pack the same 12-60mm daytime zoom, Oly 60mm f2.8 macro, and larger Lumix 100-300mm zoom then crop even more with the extra 4MP on the sensor if I needed reach beyond 300mm. All of these add crop x2 so you can imagine carrying 24-600+ mm with full macro capabilities for wildlife at rest is really special. All of this will easily fit inside a 6L Peak Everyday sling bag and maybe will allow me to drop down to a 3L bag. For what I do, this camera might be just enough to make that kind of difference. 

 

[DAEMANO]

18 minutes ago, noone said:

Funny thing is the difference in weight between my FF camera and the G100 is LESS than the difference between the G100 and the GM1 or GM5  that he claims it succeeds.

We all know Sony has makes some absolutely tiny FF cameras and leads in this department (even if those bodies are ergonomically challenged.)

We all also know that crop sensor ILCs size advantage has always been at the telephoto end. My 100-300 (200-600mm FOV equivalent) lens weighs 520g and is 74mm x 126mm. I can comfortably carry and shoot with this all day. Up one side of a mountain and down the back. Please post the dimensions of your FF 200-600mm telephoto lens.

Thanks. 

[SteveV4D]

7 minutes ago, DAEMANO said:

 

With my gear the G100 improved sensor size, reduced physical size and weight all work together in tight spaces. So even though my GX85 is small, when day hiking or travelling every millimeter and ounce counts. Not so much on weight (although this does matter), but more because of size and ability to orient with other lenses in a small bag. If hiking for wildlife shooting I can currently fit my Lumix 12-60mm daytime zoom, 42mm f1.7 (with macro-ish capability), and 14-140 mm travel zoom in the bag. At the long end, I crop (externally in post or internally with Ex.TelCon) if I need framing beyond 140mm FOV. Still that doesn't add detail into the image.

Instead, with the smaller G100 body, I could instead pack the same 12-60mm daytime zoom, Oly 60mm f2.8 macro, and larger Lumix 100-300mm zoom then crop even more with the extra 4MP on the sensor if I needed reach beyond 300mm. All of these add crop x2 so you can imagine carrying 24-600+ mm with full macro capabilities for wildlife at rest is really special. All of this will easily fit inside a 6L Peak Everyday sling bag and maybe will allow me to drop down to a 3L bag. For what I do, this camera might be just enough to make that kind of difference. 

 

Wonderful; we just need another thousand or more of customers who have this exact and unusual set of circumstances and this camera will be a hit.. 😄

[SteveV4D]

2 minutes ago, DAEMANO said:

We all know Sony has makes some absolutely tiny FF cameras and leads in this department (even if those bodies are ergonomically challenged.)

We all also know that crop sensor ILCs size advantage has always been at the telephoto end. My 100-300 (200-600mm FOV equivalent) lens weighs 520g and is 74mm x 126mm. I can comfortably carry and shoot with this all day. Up one side of a mountain and down the back. Please post the dimensions of your FF 200-600mm telephoto lens.

Thanks. 

Again  the advantage you speak of is MFT and its lenses, not unique to this camera.  Its great that you think its a good purchase and will add value to your gear.  That doesn't take away from the fact that the G100 suffers from a lack of features that would make the camera more successful if implemented.  

Why add vlog, which is a professional profile, yet deny IBIS, more useful than vlog, given theb8 bit codec.  Why even bother with 4K at all, if you have to cripple it so much because you don't have IBIS.  Why give a new and improved mic system, if you've screwed up other aspects of video recording.  

There are a tonne of inconsistencies with this camera.  Making it a mess of features.

[DAEMANO]

5 minutes ago, SteveV4D said:

Wonderful; we just need another thousand or more of customers who have this exact and unusual set of circumstances and this camera will be a hit.. 😄

Like I mentioned before, the GF series (their smallest ILC), less capable but nearly as expensive as this are Panasonic's biggest selling line in Japan.

Worldwide. the GM5, Panasonic's smallest ILC ever (introduced in 2014) are so beloved, they sell for $500 used and get snatched off of Ebay almost immediately. 

What you choose to do with this information is up top you. I really don't care.