Olympus sells Imaging Business

[Super8]

5 hours ago, kye said:

@Super8 Is there anything you can show us where specifically the GH5 have plastic skin tones or where you can't get the same look?

I keep asking because there are people who I have spoken to at length and whom I respect that believe that there is a difference, but I can never get enough information about what they're looking at in order to be able to see it myself.  It's easy to point to a video shot in glorious light with a cast and crew that are on their game and say that a different setup can't do that, because the only evidence against that statement would be a video exactly the same but shot on a different camera, and at sunset and with the light and breeze just-so it's not possible to replicate.  My questions is about what specifically can't be matched.  I am literally interested in someone pointing at part of a still frame of a video and saying 'see this thing here..  FF doesn't do that' or 'see that there..  MFT doesn't do that', or 'see how this thing moves here...  and now see on the other one how it's different...  if you can't see it then watch for the way that X does Y'

One resource that I found very interesting was this: https://www.yedlin.net/NerdyFilmTechStuff/MatchLensBlur.html  The basic idea that you can match blur on different crop factors isn't the headline here, it's that Steve Yedlin is saying it (he'd know!) and is probably the most thorough analysis I've yet found.  

He doesn't talk about availability of lenses, but he definitely discredits the people that straight-out suggest that you can't get shallow DoF on a smaller sensor.  He also doesn't talk about if there's a 'look' inherent in various sensor sizes, but he rules a whole bunch of variables out.

I'll be the first person to admit that wider lenses with wider apertures that are sharp wide-open aren't available for MFT, and maybe that's the 'look' that you're referring to, but that would only apply to shots where there needs to be a larger aperture - MFT can easily match a FF 50mm at F4 for example, so in that particular shot it can't be the lack of lenses contributing to it.

I'mm also be the first to admit I haven't got any glorious images to post that will "prove" the GH5 does hold up, but even if you gave me an Alexa I think I still couldn't do that - the weak link in both setups would be my skills in post!

I'm also half-suspecting that it's actually not the camera at all, but everything else.  What I mean is that film-making is a very deep and very difficult thing to do and get spectacular results, and by the time that you're good enough to do all the other stuff right you are spending so much money anyway that of course you just rent an Alexa for the shoot.  So in a way I question if it's not that it's not possible to do on smaller sensor cameras, maybe just that it isn't done on smaller cameras.

You're saying you can see the look, I want to also be able to see it.

I'll try and find some samples to answer your questions above.

Here's a comparison with his first example.

You get the same view and perspective.  the right side starts to not match up, not the guy but the bookshelf and table, basket.

[Marcio Kabke Pinheiro]

On 6/27/2020 at 11:30 AM, BTM_Pix said:

Well if JIP are in fact a bunch of cowboys then they couldn't have a more aptly named President & CEO.

 

 

Horseback Hide Me?

If I have to guess that this name was related to cameras, would say that was the leader of the G100 development.

[IronFilm]

On 6/29/2020 at 6:25 AM, Super8 said:

The GH5 crop / lens factor is all over the You Tube.  

I make sure my DP's use the right lens.

Then how come...  they are unable to do something as simple as selecting close to the right lens for a shot, as you said so yourself earlier: 

On 6/28/2020 at 3:43 AM, Super8 said:

The GH5 DP's never seem to be in step with the right lens for the shot. To me this is because they don't fully account for the crop factor MFT effect. 

If a DoP doesn't have a basic grasp on sensor size, then they shouldn't really be a professional DoP

[IronFilm]

Olympus isn't dead to me yet! I just purchased an Olympus lens yesterday:

Is my first ever Olympus lens too. (if you don't count my Olympus bodycap lens)

[newfoundmass]

On 6/28/2020 at 6:52 PM, Super8 said:

When?  This is crazy fanboy talk. 

Of course any independent film can be called a feature film.  That doesn't help your argument.

The run and gun statement doesn't work for the P4K does it? Big an bulky when rigged out and no AF.

It's sad that advice is thrown around the EOS and people spend thousands on gear and get investors involved because someone said "The power of the GH5/S, the Pocket 4K, etc. is that you CAN use it for a feature and get great results."

Have some standards and support the DP's that suggest using cine cameras when they're called for.  I little homework and investment in time would get you much better results that are great.

It's not fan boy talk at all. Go on the Frugal Filmmaker Facebook group and ask how many have shot features on the GH5. Heck, the user escapes me right now, but I recall someone here posting a trailer for their feature shot on a GH5 and it was beautiful. It was even mostly shot at night! 

In a world where DV camcorders and iPhones have been used to shoot features with wide releases, it's asinine to act as though a GH5 couldn't be used to great effect. It's the art and artists, not the camera that matters. 

[fuzzynormal]

42 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

I just purchased an Olympus lens yesterday

I shot one of my documentaries mostly with that lens.  Unfortunately I thought I was filming with a field of view FF-equivalent of 45mm.  Boy, was I wrong!

Seriously though, it's a purty lens.  Don't like the AF or focus-by-wire aspect of it as I'm partial to old manual glass, but it certainly rendered really nice images.

Olympus is dead, long live Olympus!

[noone]

46 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

Olympus isn't dead to me yet! I just purchased an Olympus lens yesterday:

Is my first ever Olympus lens too. (if you don't count my Olympus bodycap lens)

It is a very nice little lens.     I wish i still had mine for when (if) I find an old first gen EM1 a little down the track.

[newfoundmass]

Is it just the Olympus zooms that have the manual focus clutch? My 7-14 has it and I LOVE it. I wish Panasonic would implement it on all their lenses. 

[leslie]

48 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

Olympus isn't dead to me yet! I just purchased an Olympus lens yesterday:
Is my first ever Olympus lens too. (if you don't count my Olympus bodycap lens)

good luck with the new lens, i have one on the way as well but not olympus. Like fuzzynormal i also like the older mf lenses

bodycap lenses count, i know this because i have the 15mm besides its not really dead until its no longer breathing (exempli gratia, humans) or is broken and can no longer function as intended (exempli gratia, machines). I think its sad that people have already written olympus off, however the cameras and lenses will work for years to come. If you have olympus and like it, i wouldn't suggest getting skittish just yet and jumping ships.

[noone]

8 minutes ago, leslie said:

good luck with the new lens, i have one on the way as well but not olympus. Like fuzzynormal i also like the older mf lenses

bodycap lenses count, i know this because i have the 15mm besides its not really dead until its no longer breathing (exempli gratia, humans) or is broken and can no longer function as intended (exempli gratia, machines). I think its sad that people have already written olympus off, however the cameras and lenses will work for years to come. If you have olympus and like it, i wouldn't suggest getting skittish just yet and jumping ships.

I want to get another 15mm Oly body cap lens but to use again on my A7s with clearzoom.    The "lens" was a lot of fun and I prefer it on the A7s than i did on a GX7 (though it was fun on that too).

[fuzzynormal]

13 minutes ago, noone said:

I prefer it on the A7s than i did on a GX7

Had the GX7 as well.  Sadly lost it.  Great video camera.  Wanted to buy another one used.  Found out that one could buy a new/refurbished/warrantied Olympus EM10III for less than this 7 year old LUMIX cam. (!) Olympus is going to be trove of value for videographers over the next few years.  I'm not scared off by the recent news; kind of excited about it for mainly that reason.  

[noone]

27 minutes ago, fuzzynormal said:

Had the GX7 as well.  Sadly lost it.  Great video camera.  Wanted to buy another one used.  Found out that one could buy a new/refurbished/warrantied Olympus EM10III for less than this 7 year old LUMIX cam. (!) Olympus is going to be trove of value for videographers over the next few years.  I'm not scared off by the recent news; kind of excited about it for mainly that reason.  

I loved the GX7 as a daytime camera and that tilting EVF is what made it for me (the field sequential EVF was not an issue for me but i know some people don't like it).

[Marcio Kabke Pinheiro]

13 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Olympus isn't dead to me yet! I just purchased an Olympus lens yesterday:

Is my first ever Olympus lens too. (if you don't count my Olympus bodycap lens)

One of the best lens in value terms ever.

When I browse my photos and stop in a picture that gets my attention, 95% of the time the picture was taken with the Panasonic 20mm 1.7, Oly 45mm 1.8 or the Oly 75mm 1.8. There are some magic in these lenses.

[IronFilm]

On 6/29/2020 at 10:52 AM, Super8 said:

The run and gun statement doesn't work for the P4K does it? Big an bulky when rigged out and no AF.

Depends on what is meant by "run and gun", some people think it means running around at a wedding filming like a maniac (and yes, you can use a P4K for that! And people do. Although I'd rather take a GH5) and it could also mean a small crew of just five people going at a fast pace knocking out a dozen pages a day (and yes, the P4K can be great for that too). Or "run and gun" could mean many other things to the user. 

[IronFilm]

On 6/28/2020 at 5:09 AM, Super8 said:

That's your opinion.

Crop factor on the GH5 / MFT is a real issue if you look at from DP's perspective.   And depth of field is one part of the issue.  You can control depth of field but the shooters using a 50mm with the GH5 crop factor think they're shooting with a 50mm just by moving back and re-framing the shot.

If you don't understand lens selection and how it affect the shot then don't get mad at me and call me a troll.  GH5 / MFT footage and be called out a mile away based on the inherent generic look it produces.

I've been on my own gigs with the BMP4K and it's MFT sensor and we always have issue trying to get the look we want vs Super 35 and FF on the same shoot.  And after the fact no amount of color grading can separate the subject from the background to make up for shooting with the wrong lens on a MFT body.

Seems you @Super8 have a real obsession with super shallow DoF. 

Some of us went through that fad back during the early 5D HDSLR days many years ago, then left that phase behind when we grew up. 

But if you want to obsessively focus on this narrow aspect, then may I introduce to you the right lenses to use wide open with your GH5/P4K:

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/products/Mirrorless-Lenses/ci/17912/phd/4291123839/cp/15293%2B15492%2B17912?filters=fct_lens-mount_3442%3Amicro-four-thirds
 

[Super8]

15 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Then how come...  they are unable to do something as simple as selecting close to the right lens for a shot, as you said so yourself earlier:

My DP's get the shot I want because I prepare them and I'm the director or I've been my own DP.   My comment wasn't about my DP's or myself. 

Quote

If a DoP doesn't have a basic grasp on sensor size, then they shouldn't really be a professional DoP

Sensor size issue with M43 is. an issue that has to be dealt with.  You might take a look at all the GH5 speed booster debates and why they use them.

 

[Super8]

48 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

Some of us went through that fad back during the early 5D HDSLR days many years ago, then left that phase behind when we grew up. 
 

Olympus was kinda a big deal to bring M43 to market.  Olympus just went under and the thread is about that. 

I don't have a GH5, never have and I don't have a P4K.   I did use the P4K and P6K on a few gigs.   People need to be informed about M43 is all.  The GH5 was a good camera 3 years ago. Should it be recommended to buy and invest in? I don't think so but that's MHO.

Hope that clears everything up for you.

48 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

But if you want to obsessively focus on this narrow aspect, then may I introduce to you the right lenses to use wide open with your GH5/P4K:

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/products/Mirrorless-Lenses/ci/17912/phd/4291123839/cp/15293%2B15492%2B17912?filters=fct_lens-mount_3442%3Amicro-four-thirds
 

You're a sound guy.  Not sure you have a dog in this hunt do you?

 

Quote

Seems you @Super8 have a real obsession with super shallow DoF. 

What is super shallow DoF?   Super35 has been standard for a while.  M43 goes the other way and FF is in transition.  You might want to go back and see if I tried to make the DoF argument with M43 and FF because I haven't.  

[Super8]

57 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

Depends on what is meant by "run and gun", some people think it means running around at a wedding filming like a maniac (and yes, you can use a P4K for that! And people do. Although I'd rather take a GH5) and it could also mean a small crew of just five people going at a fast pace knocking out a dozen pages a day (and yes, the P4K can be great for that too). Or "run and gun" could mean many other things to the user. 

You can't pull focus on the P4K without rigging it up or having a focus puller., no IBIS so more rigging.  After that it's not a run n gun camera.  Yes the GH5 is a great run n gun if you can control focus.

Given the callout for small compact M43 set up I don't think our conversation means anything different.  Grasping for straws.

[SteveV4D]

22 minutes ago, Super8 said:

 

I don't have a GH5, never have and I don't have a P4K.   I did use the P4K and P6K on a few gigs.   People need to be informed about M43 is all.  The GH5 was a good camera 3 years ago. Should it be recommended to buy and invest in? I don't think so but that's MHO.

 

People don't need to be informed of MFT; only you.  I've been shooting MFT since 2012, GH2, GH3, Gh4, GX85, G85, GH5 and Pocket 4K.  I don't need to be lectured on the strengths and weaknesses of either these cameras or MFT in general.  Trust me, I know.  They all have their weaknesses, but used correctly, their strengths too.  Knowing these strengths, doesn't make me a fanboy; just an experienced user who knows how to get the best from my own gear.

In both cases, with the Pocket 6K issues you recently spoke of, and the GH5, it sounds like you were employing people who didn't really appreciate the weaknesses of the camera before using them on a Professional shoot.  However, many are aware.  I was on Facebook today where stills from an upcoming web drama series was shared by the cameraman asked to use the Pocket 6K for the very first time; he had the good sense, after researching the camera first, to use IR Filters for the shoot.  This was something your guys failed to do, leaving you with blacks looking a tad red.  Its not hard then to see why you would also have potential issues when using the GH5, if you're not familiar with MFT.

You can't start using a MFT camera and expect it to behave like a S35 or Fullframe.  If you need that look, you should stick to using S35 or fullframe cameras.  Anyone using MFT understands the compromises and is happy to work around them, rather than whine and complain about the limitations.     In the same way, Sony fullframe users had to contend with overheating, Canon users dealing with limited video features or rolling shutter.  Each camera brings its own problems that must be worked around.

 

50 minutes ago, Super8 said:

Sensor size issue with M43 is. an issue that has to be dealt with.  You might take a look at all the GH5 speed booster debates and why they use them.

 

Of course its an issue, no one denies it.  But as you say, there are ways around it.  I use to use voigtlander lenses a lot before I went down the speedbooster route.   However speedboosters are perhaps more about getting extra stops of lowlight.  For me though, it was a chance to use the Sigma 18 to 35 mm lens everyone kept raving about, with the speedbooster helping to widen the 18mm that is designed for S35 rather than MFT.  Before that I used a wide variety of primes from 12mm to 75mm, with low apertures.  I only really went down the speedbooster when I got the Pocket December 2018, so its only a recent thing for me.

Of course, if MFT was so great, we wouldn't be here debating its one day loss to the Photo and Video industry.  As technology allows us to put the features once reserved for MFT into Fullframe, the need for MFT begins to die.  You say the GH5 has lost is sparkle since its release in 2017, but it was only the latest in a long line of cameras.  You should really instead look back to the day the GH2 was released to see what this line of MFT cameras have given to video users. 

In a few years time, maybe we shall all be shooting fullframe as the cost and features on them continue to make it practical for all of us.  Unless Panasonic gives us a GH6 soon, I can see many Professional Video MFT users ditching this format, leaving it in the realm of newbies with cameras like the awful G100 .

[newfoundmass]

1 hour ago, Super8 said:

You're a sound guy.  Not sure you have a dog in this hunt do you?

He's on a camera forum.