truth about Pocket 6k dynamic range

[SteveV4D]

So I assume this means the Pocket 6K has bette rdynamic range than the 4K.  Im pretty impressed with the DR of the Pocket 4K.  It holds up very well with the BRAW codec.

I'm looking to get the 6K, once regular work returns.  

[SteveV4D]

4 hours ago, IronFilm said:

The URSA series still has their place on set for "better workflow" than a Pocket camera. 

Plus just simply to make the producer/client feel like they're "getting their money's worth". (not so much the case with a pocket....)

Rigged up, my Pocket 4K doesn't look all that small. Once I've added the battery pack, top handle, cage, lens hood, hard drive attachment and a long shotgun mic connected to the camera, it has quite a big presence.  I could add an external screen to. 

That said, I'd see the advantage an URSA would have for more high end work.  But its pretty heavy I recall from trying one out last year.  My back prefers the Pocket.

[thebrothersthre3]

23 hours ago, androidlad said:

If this was truth, then there would be accompanying empirical evidence to support it.

For now, it's only your subjective opinion.

Also in BRAW, 6K scored 11.8 stops and URSA Mini G2 scored 12.1.

I tested the Ursa with CDNG which scored 12.6 and 13 with NR. I used NR in my test.

 

12 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Why do you think that? I know of people who purchased new URSAs during the last couple of years. 

As for the P6K, I thought they're using an identical sensor to the P4K but just a bigger cut of it? So a 4K crop of the P6K should be identical to the P4K?

Nah it's a different sensor entirely. I'm assuming its similar to the XT3 / A6300 sensor. 

41 minutes ago, SteveV4D said:

So I assume this means the Pocket 6K has bette rdynamic range than the 4K.  Im pretty impressed with the DR of the Pocket 4K.  It holds up very well with the BRAW codec.

I'm looking to get the 6K, once regular work returns.  

Yeah the P4K definitely is great. Better than an A6300/GH5S/XT3

[thebrothersthre3]

22 hours ago, JordanWright said:

Could you link these videos and I’d love to see your tests! 

I think an issue is that some companies are very liberal about the DR numbers On there cameras. I recently saw someone share a DR chart of the BMMCC that looked very similar to the Helium/Komodo chart that Red released, which have wildly different ratings (13-16+)
 

Your findings comparing the 4.6k and the 6K are interesting, I wonder if the higher resolution is helping the low end quite a bit. I do wonder how my 4K compares aswell. 

Gonna link them later today or tomorrow, I'm out of town RN. They are pretty conclusive tho IMO 

[thebrothersthre3]

18 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

Like this?

 

Yeah it just doesn't hold up in real life, not sure whats up with the inaccurate measurements 

17 hours ago, HockeyFan12 said:

I think that particular thumbnail is from a low light comparison, but that's a very useful channel.

To my eye;

4.6K G2: 

https://vimeo.com/408639496

Highlights hold to about +4.5. Shadows go deep but get green and unusable around -4 or -4.5.

EVA1:

https://vimeo.com/399691355

Highlights hold almost to +5. Shadows go deep but heavy noise. Nice color linearity, but maybe good to -3.5?

https://vimeo.com/400031418

Amira clips around +5.5, maybe a bit better. Great color linearity but noisy, but nice noise texture. Good to -4.5 but noisy? So would measure much worse but it looks good. Subjective.

S1H:

https://vimeo.com/404396461

Pretty similar to EVA1, much more banding. Difficult to judge shadows because banding, noise texture, etc. is all more subjective than results on a wedge chart.

P6K:

https://vimeo.com/408524414

This was at 400 ISO. So it looks like +4 or +4.5 and -2 or -3 if you can tolerate some banding. But at 800 ISO that would be +5 or +5.5 and -1 or -2 but that's from banding, not noise. So if you don't underexpose and rate at 800 ISO I can see this being surprisingly close to an Alexa unless you need to dig into the shadows.

S1 has great highlight detail, not so good shadows:

https://vimeo.com/399496111Every result is fantastic. An embarrassment of riches on the market today. I don't entirely trust the methodology though.

 

Weird thing I was getting less noise in the shadows against the URSA at 800 ISO 

[HockeyFan12]

2 hours ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

Yeah it just doesn't hold up in real life, not sure whats up with the inaccurate measurements 

Weird thing I was getting less noise in the shadows against the URSA at 800 ISO 

Trust your eyes, not the internet. And now that I look at it again the 6K actually looks pretty clean to me and with much better color linearity and the 4.6k and especially EVA1 look really really noisy, just with less banding, but maybe the noise covers the banding?

I've never seen objectionable banding with the 6K in real world scenarios. Anyway the dynamic range numbers don't tell the full story and imo highlight dynamic range (and the texture, not quantity of shadow noise) is what matters most. P6K excels at both. Definitely don't trust an online test and don't trust some random person's interpretation of it! Your firsthand experience is infinitely more valuable.

[thebrothersthre3]

4 hours ago, HockeyFan12 said:

Trust your eyes, not the internet. And now that I look at it again the 6K actually looks pretty clean to me and with much better color linearity and the 4.6k and especially EVA1 look really really noisy, just with less banding, but maybe the noise covers the banding?

I've never seen objectionable banding with the 6K in real world scenarios. Anyway the dynamic range numbers don't tell the full story and imo highlight dynamic range (and the texture, not quantity of shadow noise) is what matters most. P6K excels at both. Definitely don't trust an online test and don't trust some random person's interpretation of it! Your firsthand experience is infinitely more valuable.

The vertical lines on the 4.6k ruin it in the deep shadows. Maybe the G2 doesn't share that issue though.

[IronFilm]

12 hours ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

Nah it's a different sensor entirely. I'm assuming its similar to the XT3 / A6300 sensor. 

I wonder if/when they'll put this S35 6K sensor in the URSA Mini Pro G3

[SteveV4D]

I wonder if BM will make the next URSA fullframe.  It would help it to distinguish it from other cameras like the C200, FS7 and EVA.  And of course, be a step up from the Pocket 6K.  

[Mr. Freeze]

They definitely need to deliver something that makes it a new flagship, making it the next evolution for the Ursa aswell as destinguish itself from the Pocket 6K and its features. 

I use the Pocket 4K, but obviously the 6K is a fantastic camera. 

The question is, how they proceed in making changes/new featues.

Will they go Fullframe or stay with Super 35? Or will they offer two options?

They´ll have at least 6k Recording, but will they go 8K to step up the Pocket 6Ks Resolution?

They´ll probably integrate the ND or another version of it, something I need in a lot of situations with my Pocket 4K.

I really like the USB-C for recording, but I think the integration of an external drive could be optimized. I really liked the SSD-Option in the BMCC, and the SSD Recorder on the URSA.

So maybe something similar for m.2 drives or SSD could be great.

I´d like to see some external control via WLAN, not just for basic settings but for controling focus points, focus programing etc.

We´ll see if they announce some news this year for a 2021 relesase.

[Andrew Reid]

Rather than go full frame as has been rumoured (let alone 8K), I think Blackmagic should bring back the old BMCC 2.5K sensor for a $999 model and do an updated Pocket 6K with same S35 sensor, but mirrorless L-mount or E-mount.

Then they should go to work on the body and make a proper camera, not a potato, and sell for $2000.

Minimum standard:

Build quality to at least Panasonic GH5 or X-T4 level
Large built in EVF like the competition
Fully articulated screen, even if they have to make it smaller
IBIS would be ideal
Fix the battery life. it's completely unacceptable on the single Canon battery
PDAF would be nice

Then we have all the makings of a giant killer.

[Mr. Freeze]

Some great points here, Andrew!

Yeah, that 2.5k Sensor was/is awesome. Great for 1080p or 2K Output, but capable of being upscaled to UHD aswell. Bringing it back in a new camerabody with upgraded software and interface wouldn´t be a bad idea. I would prefer other mount-options but nevertheless.

An EVF is cool, but not a requirement, at least for me.

If the screen has to be articulated, it has to be a really solid construction concept. 

IBIS can be great, but it depends on the implementation and whether there are any downsides on imagequality/processing power as a result of it.

Battery life has to be improved a lot. This is really a PITA. Sure, Sony batteries on with an adapter works, but isn´t practical. 

DPAF is something I personally haven´t worked with. I like the manual focusing for the stuff I do, but I know how important it is for some of the potential users. Still, not a requirement for me personally.

As for higher framerates, I like the 120 fps of the Pocket 4K, but the imagequality suffers. I think HFR shouln´t be a nice gimmick, it should deliver the best quality as possible without going overboard.

 

[Andrew Reid]

That's another reason why it would be great to have a modern S35 2.5K or 2.8K sensor... 240fps without a crop or pixel binning... in BRAW.

They really missed a trick going straight from 1080p to 4K. In fact the entire industry did!

Not everybody needs 4K, even now.

What we DO need is a cinematic image better than 1080p.

When 8K comes with the EOS R5, it'll be interesting to see if people are still using it after 1 week.

[Mr. Freeze]

I´m all in with a 2.8k Sensor.

But still, I think UHD is a nice middleground in the resolution race, even though, great 1080p is enough in a lot of areas.

It isn´t too much to ask for that in a new camera in 2020 or 2021, but nevertheless, 1080p from a really good 2.8k Sensor could be interesting for some if the camera delivers the expected image quality .

I really like the BMD color science, the codecs the cameras offer (Prores and BRAW), the Software etc. but they need to improve other areas, battery life being on of them.

[MeanRevert]

Watch everyone’s post be wrong here as Blackmagic announces a new camera dedicated to vlogging..

[Mr. Freeze]

1 hour ago, MeanRevert said:

Watch everyone’s post be wrong here as Blackmagic announces a new camera dedicated to vlogging..

Probably with the glorious h.264  codec and 8bit... highly unlikely. 

But sure, you´ll never know. 😉

[Andrew Reid]

Isn't Sony just cannibalising their A6400 with the "vlogging" RX100 clone?

Seems stupid.

Panasonic are probably hurting sales of the GH5, G90 and more besides with the GX9-clone for vloggers.

[anonim]

8 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

Then they should go to work on the body and make a proper camera, not a potato, and sell for $2000.

Minimum standard:

Build quality to at least Panasonic GH5 or X-T4 level
Large built in EVF like the competition
Fully articulated screen, even if they have to make it smaller
IBIS would be ideal
Fix the battery life. it's completely unacceptable on the single Canon battery
PDAF would be nice

Then we have all the makings of a giant killer.

So, mostly marriage with deceased/resurrected Olympus bride.. of course, with signature inscription "BM Best man Andrew Reid"!

[thebrothersthre3]

Yeah the Pocket camera idea could work with a better battery life and tilt screen. I’d prefer a smaller Ursa body though with the Pocket 6k sensor. Phase detect AF would be huge though I don’t see it happening. I’m guessing an URSA LF will be the next BM camera though. I don’t mind lower res camera but 6k full frame seems to be the way forward. I’d love if the Pocket 6k could do full sensor 4k RAW tho 

[rawshooter]

On 6/27/2020 at 1:37 PM, Andrew Reid said:

Rather than go full frame as has been rumoured (let alone 8K), I think Blackmagic should bring back the old BMCC 2.5K sensor for a $999 model and do an updated Pocket 6K with same S35 sensor, but mirrorless L-mount or E-mount.

That would be my dream camera - I still have my BMCC 2.5K, and prefer its image over that of any other camera I own, including the Sigma fp. IMHO, the image of BM camera's declined with each new camera generation after the original BMCC, and now - with the Pocket 4K/6K - is just the generic Sony photo camera sensor look that practically all sub-RED/Arri/Venice cameras do have.

But unfortunately, a Pocket with the 2.5K sensor won't happen because that old Fairchild 2.5K sensor needed massive cooling. Most of the insides of the large and heavy BMCC 2.5K consist of the cooling heatpipe construction for the sensor unit....