SIGMA FP with ProRes RAW and BRAW !

[Cliff Totten]

This is a 4k, APS-C windowed raw readout? Full width sensor readout would generate 5.9k raw sensor data.

[rawshooter]

1 minute ago, Cliff Totten said:

This is a 4k, APS-C windowed raw readout? Full width sensor readout would generate 5.9k raw sensor data.

Either 4K, APS-C-windowed, or 6K lineskipped to 4K-Pseudo-RAW (similar to how MagicLantern records scaled-down RAW video on Canon cameras).

Unfortunately, the BRAW and ProRes RAW external recording options didn't give us full sensor resolution.

[Andrew Reid]

Still better than no RAW at all from Sony.

2 hours ago, Lars Steenhoff said:

It was the product planner from sigma who said it

It will be researched for the next camera.

I can't find his quote anywhere though.

I saw the product planner saying LOG was coming.

Not the quote from him saying they cancelled it.

Feel free to screen shot it for us.

[Lars Steenhoff]

I started at the time code when he mentions it

 

 

[Andrew Reid]

OK fair enough then!

A bit odd to announce it and then unannounced. But I guess they'll have to save something for the Fp 2.

Imagine that for a moment - an Fp 2 with 10bit LOG, IBIS, EVF, articulated screen.

In the meantime since they have fixed the fluctuating black gamma I'll look at doing Pro LOG for the Sigma Fp and some LUTs. Will have to see how it performs though so no promises.

[Llaasseerr]

This is a pretty interesting upgrade. I'd still like to see them add true 24p and also internal raw DCI-2k like the X-T3 does.

I'm also very interested in what the output looks like when you capture the director's viewfinder mode. Can we do Super 16? Anamorphic 35mm? Does it have a big black area around it?

As for the omission of a log profile, here's my take. For me, this would be most useful for monitoring with your dailies LUT while recording raw since currently there does not appear to be an accurate way to monitor raw. The Digital Bolex handles this brilliantly and simply by outputting log over HDMI. If you hook up an external monitor that accepts 3D LUTs then the log can be transformed to your final Rec709 look. That is also because they published their log spec, so you can do the transform accurately. Same idea as an Arri LogC to Rec709 LUT. This workflow means your on-set LUT matches what you will see in Resolve when viewing your raw dailies footage.

Ideally you could capture raw but view some kind of Sigma log on the camera screen, and crucially, also add your own log to rec709 transform LUT on top. That way you don't need an external monitor at all.

If the new HDR mode can be output over HDMI while recording internal raw, then if the HDR is a known spec like HLG then with the addition of a LUT it can be used to monitor the raw image, and it can also be used in place of a log profile.

Another option is if you can display log versions for ProRes or BMD raw captures and you can put your own LUT on top of the log image. I'm not sure of the capabilities of the recorders though.

I don't think the new 'none' mode is going to help much, but if Sigma released details explaining exactly what is captured in this mode, then we can make our own decisions. It certainly doesn't look like linear 1.0 gamma since it's not dark enough, and it most likely is clipping highlight information above 1.0.

Edit: does this output some kind of 8 bit ProRes raw over HDMI? This was mentioned on another site. If this is some kind of log signal so it fits in 8 bits then again it can be used for monitoring.

 

 

[Andrew Reid]

I agree. Well, real RAW sensor data is RAW sensor data so it can be converted and displayed as LOG format footage on the recorder. Will have to see what the Ninja V is capable of doing with it and whether LUTs work.

Your last question - are you referring to the output of the Fp HDMI port for ProRes RAW recording or something else? The Sigma Fp outputs 12bit RAW data over HDMI. ProRes RAW codec compression is not done by the camera of course - that's the job of the Ninja V, so there isn't 8bit ProRes RAW over HDMI. In fact there is no such thing as ProRes RAW over HDMI as it doesn't originate in the camera. It is RAW sensor data over HDMI and ProRes RAW in your external recorder. It's just easier to phrase it like the former, ProRes RAW via HDMI.

[Cliff Totten]

3 hours ago, rawshooter said:

Either 4K, APS-C-windowed, or 6K lineskipped to 4K-Pseudo-RAW (similar to how MagicLantern records scaled-down RAW video on Canon cameras).

Unfortunately, the BRAW and ProRes RAW external recording options didn't give us full sensor resolution.

Hmmm....the Lumix S1H will give full pixel readout and full sensor width in raw. Same sensor?

[rawshooter]

6 minutes ago, Cliff Totten said:

Hmmm....the Lumix S1H will give full pixel readout and full sensor width in raw. Same sensor?

Yeah, same sensor, but likely different licensing deals with Sony (the sensor manufacturer)...

[Llaasseerr]

1 hour ago, Andrew Reid said:

I agree. Well, real RAW sensor data is RAW sensor data so it can be converted and displayed as LOG format footage on the recorder. Will have to see what the Ninja V is capable of doing with it and whether LUTs work.

Your last question - are you referring to the output of the Fp HDMI port for ProRes RAW recording or something else? The Sigma Fp outputs 12bit RAW data over HDMI. ProRes RAW codec compression is not done by the camera of course - that's the job of the Ninja V, so there isn't 8bit ProRes RAW over HDMI. In fact there is no such thing as ProRes RAW over HDMI as it doesn't originate in the camera. It is RAW sensor data over HDMI and ProRes RAW in your external recorder. It's just easier to phrase it like the former, ProRes RAW via HDMI.

Right, that doesn't make sense on re-reading. The article seemed to be saying there was an option to capture 8 bit 4:2:2 ProRes from the incoming raw stream, instead of writing as ProRes Raw proper. It could be a mistake on their part. I haven't actually used a Ninja V before, but if there was an 8 bit compressed option I thought maybe it will be some kind of log version.

Maybe some sort of dump to disk of the debayer that you are looking at while monitoring?

 

[Video Hummus]

Still not compelling, in my opinion, until there is a ninja star type of device for this compressed RAW external recording. Just not worth the effort, for me that is, over a solid high bitrate 10-bit 422.

I wonder if S1H will see BRAW support in the future? They share a sensor with the fp, no?

[hijodeibn]

anyone can tell us if there is an improvement in autofocus?, compared to DPAF?

[Chris Whitten]

Some people are just down on the FP. That's fine. Obviously people have varying needs and some are just not taken with this camera. It often does read like a statement of fact however. I bought mine slightly used, obviously from a disgruntled early adopter.

I have shot numerous short films using CDNG, 10 bit. Apart from a couple of minor bugs before the last firmware update (early spring). I have not seen any lines or artefacts. It is super easy to import into Davinci Resolve (drag and drop the folders). It is also very easy to grade, despite some disappearing down a rabbit hole of stats and codecs. 

It is a slow camera for stills work. The loupe is bulky, but essential for me as I'm a reading glasses wearer. The screen is a blurred fade in daylight if I try and use it without the loupe.

Agreed, the ISO is one click to the QS menu. I generally decide what my ISO should be for a project and use shutter speed and aperture to expose my pictures from there. back in the day you had to determine the ISO as you loaded a 30 shot film. At least now it's auto-ISO, or a one click menu change.

I do not have any L mount lenses (yet). Last week I shot one of my favourite raw stills ever. I processed it in Capture One. Again, super easy. I just adjusted the levels, added a little contrast and it looked fantastic. I forgot to add any saturation before I exported it, but the colours look lovely (slightly pastel).

I have a Leica Q stills camera, and a BMD Pocket 4K, and for me the Sigma FP matches both in end result. I am enjoying using it easily as much as those two cameras.

I only keep the Pocket 4K for Braw. If there was a very small unit I could record Braw to from the FP I would sell my Pocket 4K.

[Chris Whitten]

13 hours ago, rawshooter said:

But you are aware of the fact that BRAW can only be recorded externally by the newest model of the BM Video Assist, with firmware yet to be released? 

Yes. 

[BTM_Pix]

11 hours ago, hijodeibn said:

anyone can tell us if there is an improvement in autofocus?, compared to DPAF?

From a quick test on mine yesterday, I'd say the answers to your questions are "subtle, if at all" and "not even remotely close".

I love this camera but the AF is never going to give the likes of Canon or Sony any sleepless nights but AF is less important to me with the fp so I turn a blind eye to it.

Which, coincidentally, what the camera itself appears to do when trying to use face detect mode !

 

[Andrew Reid]

I turn a blind eye to the AF as well. You should give it an AI eye add on

Apparently according to Kazuto 30% of Fp sales were body only, indicating that manual focus lenses and adapters will be getting a lot of use on it!

Autofocus, IBIS, built in EVF and tilt screen... Blackmagic Pocket 6K lacks them all! And so does the Fp. It’ll not be the A7 III replacement for the specs sheep. But just look at the images. 12bit BRAW 4K vs 8bit Sony XAVC!

I may get the viewfinder loupe for it. And gorilla pod for handheld work. You can argue it would look less weird than IBIS if used nicely this way.

[Andrew Reid]

4 hours ago, Chris Whitten said:

Some people are just down on the FP. That's fine. Obviously people have varying needs and some are just not taken with this camera. It often does read like a statement of fact however. I bought mine slightly used, obviously from a disgruntled early adopter.

I have shot numerous short films using CDNG, 10 bit. Apart from a couple of minor bugs before the last firmware update (early spring). I have not seen any lines or artefacts. It is super easy to import into Davinci Resolve (drag and drop the folders). It is also very easy to grade, despite some disappearing down a rabbit hole of stats and codecs. 

It is a slow camera for stills work. The loupe is bulky, but essential for me as I'm a reading glasses wearer. The screen is a blurred fade in daylight if I try and use it without the loupe.

Agreed, the ISO is one click to the QS menu. I generally decide what my ISO should be for a project and use shutter speed and aperture to expose my pictures from there. back in the day you had to determine the ISO as you loaded a 30 shot film. At least now it's auto-ISO, or a one click menu change.

I do not have any L mount lenses (yet). Last week I shot one of my favourite raw stills ever. I processed it in Capture One. Again, super easy. I just adjusted the levels, added a little contrast and it looked fantastic. I forgot to add any saturation before I exported it, but the colours look lovely (slightly pastel).

I have a Leica Q stills camera, and a BMD Pocket 4K, and for me the Sigma FP matches both in end result. I am enjoying using it easily as much as those two cameras.

I only keep the Pocket 4K for Braw. If there was a very small unit I could record Braw to from the FP I would sell my Pocket 4K.

It would be great if Blackmagic put an BRAW FPGA in a small Ninja Star alike module, but have it powered via USB C rather than a brick of a battery.

Actually scrub that.

Put the chip in an USB C SSD, and have it convert the uncompressed 12bit RAW before it gets written to the drive.

NvME size if possible.

[Anaconda_]

Does anyone know if Sigma and BMD have been in talks for Braw? I would have imagined Sigma would release this update along side BMDs VA update. But that didn't happen, leading me to consider the possibility that Sigma have surprised BMD and named Braw as a way to grab some hype. 

Does the Ninja also need an update to capture ProResRaw from the FP? Or can it already wrap any raw signal?

 

 

 

[BTM_Pix]

39 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

I turn a blind eye to the AF as well. You should give it an AI eye add on

 

I shall certainly be scrutinising that SDK when it comes out next week.

[Lars Steenhoff]

47 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

I may get the viewfinder loupe for it. And gorilla pod for handheld work. You can argue it would look less weird than IBIS if used nicely this way.

https://kinotehnik.com/product/lcdvf-bm5-optical-viewfinder/

I use the Kinotehnik optical viewfinder on the smallhd focus oled, its not supposed to work but I made it work.

So now I have a 1080p OLED evf

It is suported to work on the blackmagic 5" 12g