SIGMA FP with ProRes RAW and BRAW !

[Llaasseerr]

I found something interesting yesterday. When you set the fp to output raw when you have a connected monitor over HDMI that is not the Ninja V, it displays the b+w mosaic sensor image. You can clearly see all the highlights and where they're clipping because it's underexposed. Obviously if you have a Ninja V connected, it can display the image as Vlog which is more clear, but I thought this was interesting.

 

[OleB]

@llasseerr Have run a couple more tests and am pretty happy with the consistency by now. But one thing could improve the workflow a tad more. Have the feeling that the Atomos is as well not using the correct gamut, so could the step which I have described with the Panasonic LUTs reduced to one LUT? Am talking about the 2 step conversion from RAW gamut to V gamut and afterwards V gamut to Rec709.

That is certainly way beyond my skill level, so if you have an idea if that is achievable to have that step in one LUT to upload onto the Ninja that would be awesome. Cheers

[Llaasseerr]

On 7/24/2022 at 5:38 AM, OleB said:

@llasseerr Have run a couple more tests and am pretty happy with the consistency by now. But one thing could improve the workflow a tad more. Have the feeling that the Atomos is as well not using the correct gamut, so could the step which I have described with the Panasonic LUTs reduced to one LUT? Am talking about the 2 step conversion from RAW gamut to V gamut and afterwards V gamut to Rec709.

That is certainly way beyond my skill level, so if you have an idea if that is achievable to have that step in one LUT to upload onto the Ninja that would be awesome. Cheers

Unless there's an error in their matrix transform, the "intermediate gamut" metadata tag being added into the raw stream by the Ninja V already displays the raw image in Vgamut. So under the hood it's already transforming from Sigma RAW gamut to Vgamut. So then all you need to do is apply the single Vlog/Vgamut to Rec709 LUT on the Ninja V.

The two step transform is only an issue in FCPX. It's possible that the gamut transform LUT in FCPX is incorrect because it was supplied by Panasonic for their cameras. Having said that, I realize now that the S5 has the same sensor as the fp, so it's not too bad a choice for Atomos to co-opt Panavision's color science as a workaround for the lack of an equivalent from Sigma.

If you suspect there may be an error on Atomos' part, what might be worth trying is using Play Pro to transform PRR to Vlog/Vgamut, then apply the standard Rec709 LUT. Then use the Ninja V as output from your computer via HDMI and seeing if it visually matches the way the Ninja displays the PRR clips.

 

 

[webrunner5]

 Not sure if this has been shown yet?
 

 

[OleB]

3 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

 Not sure if this has been shown yet?
 

 

Really eager to see if this might be the Foveon sensor which is (finally) coming, or indeed something even more into the cinema direction. 😁

[Llaasseerr]

On 7/27/2022 at 3:06 AM, OleB said:

Really eager to see if this might be the Foveon sensor which is (finally) coming, or indeed something even more into the cinema direction. 😁

Yeah, would absolutely love to see a Foveon sensor cinema camera! My takeaway from watching the interview was that the sensor might be ready by end of year, but not necessarily the camera. Hopefully I'm wrong though, and they do bring something out sooner rather than later.

[Owlgreen]

I'm in need of an external monitor for my fp, so I'm considering to pay a bit more and get a Ninja V or Video Assist 12G. I use Davinci Resolve exclusively now, so should this alone rule out the Ninja V for me? Is there any practical workflow to convert ProRes Raw to some other form to use in Resolve? What about the non-raw codecs in these recorders? Is it possible to record from the fp in ProRes 422 HQ and still maintain roughly the same headroom and legroom of the cDNG files? Thanks for your help.

[FHDcrew]

If you own a Mac, for around $75 you can convert Prores raw to either compressed or uncompressed CDNG. If you don’t own a Mac you can buy a cheap one. From very limited testing (I tried 1 a7siii Prores raw file) a 2014 Mac mini with a measly 1.4ghz dual core i5, integrated graphics, an SSD, and 4GB ram can slowly but surely get the job done. So if you are on windows you could probably get a way with a cheap Intel Mac and converting your files there, then moving things over to your windows PC to edit in Resolve. 

[OleB]

2 hours ago, Owlgreen said:

I'm in need of an external monitor for my fp, so I'm considering to pay a bit more and get a Ninja V or Video Assist 12G. I use Davinci Resolve exclusively now, so should this alone rule out the Ninja V for me? Is there any practical workflow to convert ProRes Raw to some other form to use in Resolve? What about the non-raw codecs in these recorders? Is it possible to record from the fp in ProRes 422 HQ and still maintain roughly the same headroom and legroom of the cDNG files? Thanks for your help.

If you are recording non RAW out of the fp, it is limited to 8bit 4:2:2, which you could record in ProRes HQ on the Ninja. However because the fp does not have any flavor of log build in, I personally would rule that out. Suggest to go the RAW way therefore either Ninja V or Video Assist. In that RAW workflow it is possible to use LOG and a LUT to convert that correctly now, because (at least the Ninja V) is treating the RAW out of the fp as Panasonic V-log.

That is a matter of your personal feelings towards Blackmagic or FCPX. I have invested much more time in FCPX and did not wanted to start all over with DaVinci Resolve. So I went the Ninja V route.

 

[Owlgreen]

Thanks for the information. Braw would be much easy for me to deal with. Shame the VA12Gs never seem to be heavily discounted, unlike the Ninja V. Ninja V also seems to support raw recording on a far wider array of cameras. 

[Llaasseerr]

One thing i haven't tried yet is recording both internal (to an SSD) raw and simultaneously trying to output Prores raw to the Ninja V for monitoring. I read somewhere it was possible. What would be the point of that? Well if you could monitor on the Ninja V in Vlog with a LUT, but record internally to DNG, you could edit the DNG directly in Resolve. Also, you get highlight recovery with DNG so you get a bit more dynamic range.

Having said that, obviously Prores raw is pretty nice. I personally use Assimilate Play Pro which was bundled with the Ninja V for a while to transcode to log Prores 4444 in order to use it in Resolve. I'm fine with the extra ingest/transcode step, but I know a lot of people aren't.

Obviously using the BM monitor is more convenient for going into Resolve, but I don't know if it has any kind of color managed setup or highlight monitoring like the Ninja V offers.

[Llaasseerr]

On 7/29/2022 at 8:45 AM, FHDcrew said:

If you own a Mac, for around $75 you can convert Prores raw to either compressed or uncompressed CDNG. If you don’t own a Mac you can buy a cheap one. From very limited testing (I tried 1 a7siii Prores raw file) a 2014 Mac mini with a measly 1.4ghz dual core i5, integrated graphics, an SSD, and 4GB ram can slowly but surely get the job done. So if you are on windows you could probably get a way with a cheap Intel Mac and converting your files there, then moving things over to your windows PC to edit in Resolve. 

Just a heads up that I tested this software and I found it didn't do an accurate conversion from PRR to DNG, at least with PRR from Sony cams. I think most users won't mind that slight shift though, but if you want a pretty tightly managed color pipeline then I found it doesn't cut it. 

[FHDcrew]

2 hours ago, Llaasseerr said:

Just a heads up that I tested this software and I found it didn't do an accurate conversion from PRR to DNG, at least with PRR from Sony cams. I think most users won't mind that slight shift though, but if you want a pretty tightly managed color pipeline then I found it doesn't cut it. 

Ok. If you have access to premiere, import Prores raw into there. Do your log conversion and edit any RAW medidata such as white balance. Then export each individual clip out as Prores 4444 12 bit, preserving everything for Davinci resolve (except RAW sliders). 

[Llaasseerr]

4 hours ago, FHDcrew said:

Ok. If you have access to premiere, import Prores raw into there. Do your log conversion and edit any RAW medidata such as white balance. Then export each individual clip out as Prores 4444 12 bit, preserving everything for Davinci resolve (except RAW sliders). 

That is likely to be a fair solution for many people. I'm not sure about Premiere's working gamut management outside of 709 though.

I mentioned I use Play Pro for conversion in the way you describe (to log master), which is guaranteed to be accurate with their color conversion. It's affordable, but it does have an obtuse flame-style interface which may put some people off.

[OleB]

Hi all,

I have taken all the knowledge from this thread and my past experience and compiled it into LUTs. Llaasseerr was so kind to provide the V-log to ARRI log-C transformation earlier in this thread.

So in the following dropbox you will find two LUTs which are convertingV-log to either Arri Rec709 or Panasonic Rec709 from ProRes RAW. Only thing you have to do in advance is select the RAW to LOG conversion in FCPX to Panasonic V-Log. Next you have to apply only one of these LUTs which is doing the work for you. Whichever you prefer more. 🙂

And yes, they also work in the Ninja V to monitor and meter the exposure. Some banding is present, but that seems to be a technical limitation of the fp, as Atomos stated in their release manual. Now the result is matching exactly in the NLE and while recording.

Hope this will be of value for you guys.

For me a little dream came true, Sigma fp to pocket ARRI Alexa... 🙂 

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/h82hwjk12kvck4d/AAC9wmF8ezXhSVo4YBxNgwRla?dl=0

 

 

[FHDcrew]

How do you guys find Prores RAW on the Sigma compared to CDNG?

[OleB]

3 hours ago, FHDcrew said:

How do you guys find Prores RAW on the Sigma compared to CDNG?

Well the PRR way gives you the option of monitoring and color correcting V-log footage. CDNG does not. 

Quality wise I am the wrong person to ask, but seems that both formats are extremely capable in regards to grading. So guess that is more a question of which working way you prefer. 🙂 

[FHDcrew]

14 minutes ago, OleB said:

Well the PRR way gives you the option of monitoring and color correcting V-log footage. CDNG does not. 

Quality wise I am the wrong person to ask, but seems that both formats are extremely capable in regards to grading. So guess that is more a question of which working way you prefer. 🙂 

Nice. I’m thinking of getting the Prores RAW upgrade for the Nikon Z6. Then I will use Raw Convertor to convert it to cinema dng. I was curious if the quality between PRR and CDNG is comparable, so I’m glad to hear it’s a yes. 

[OleB]

I must say I love this little camera. Especially since the LUTs are now workable. Have attached you a couple of pictures, am currently recreating a scene together with my wife and child. Guess some of you will recognize the movie? 🙂 

Lit by candles only. Lens used DZO Vespid 50mm at T2.1 and fp set to ISO 3200. 

Once it is ready I will post a link here as well so that you can judge the image quality. But do not expect great acting, we are both not even bad actors, more like no actors at all. 😄 
 

[Llaasseerr]

On 8/17/2022 at 1:38 PM, OleB said:

Well the PRR way gives you the option of monitoring and color correcting V-log footage. CDNG does not. 

Quality wise I am the wrong person to ask, but seems that both formats are extremely capable in regards to grading. So guess that is more a question of which working way you prefer. 🙂 

I'm of the opinion that ProRes Raw quality is very good. Obviously it would be great if Sigma could apply lossless or lossy compression to the internal DNG recordings the same way BMD were able to pre-RED drama. It would also be great if Sigma could take a cue from Atomos about how they managed to implement log + LUT monitoring.