SIGMA FP with ProRes RAW and BRAW !

[FHDcrew]

3 hours ago, Llaasseerr said:

I'm of the opinion that ProRes Raw quality is very good. Obviously it would be great if Sigma could apply lossless or lossy compression to the internal DNG recordings the same way BMD were able to pre-RED drama. It would also be great if Sigma could take a cue from Atomos about how they managed to implement log + LUT monitoring.

Good to hear. My thinking is the hope to shoot Prores raw on my Nikon Z6, then convert to uncompressed CDNG using RAW Convertor for Mac. Do you think the grading experience and flexibility will be similar to say uncompressed CDNG on the sigma FP?  I know Prores RAW on the Z6 is line skipped but I doubt that’s much of a real-world issue aside from increased noise at high ISO. Plus I doubt the moire issues will even be very visible on much of my footage. 

[Llaasseerr]

On 8/22/2022 at 7:17 PM, FHDcrew said:

Good to hear. My thinking is the hope to shoot Prores raw on my Nikon Z6, then convert to uncompressed CDNG using RAW Convertor for Mac. Do you think the grading experience and flexibility will be similar to say uncompressed CDNG on the sigma FP?  I know Prores RAW on the Z6 is line skipped but I doubt that’s much of a real-world issue aside from increased noise at high ISO. Plus I doubt the moire issues will even be very visible on much of my footage. 

I do think that there are times RAW Convertor (sp?) can be inaccurate, so it may be worth trying a demo and comparing to a Prores 4444 log export for accuracy. As far as grading experience and flexibility, there's no real difference between Prores Raw and DNG. 

Overall, if you export to Prores 4444 log, you will have the same experience as grading linear raw. You can get the same temperature, exposure and white balance controls with Resolve as the raw controls as long as you're correctly applying them.

 

[FHDcrew]

27 minutes ago, Llaasseerr said:

I do think that there are times RAW Convertor (sp?) can be inaccurate, so it may be worth trying a demo and comparing to a Prores 4444 log export for accuracy. As far as grading experience and flexibility, there's no real difference between Prores Raw and DNG. 

Overall, if you export to Prores 4444 log, you will have the same experience as grading linear raw. You can get the same temperature, exposure and white balance controls with Resolve as the raw controls as long as you're correctly applying them.

 

Cool. How should I go about obtaining these proper controls?

[FHDcrew]

I mean as far as Davinci resolve. Do I use the global HDR slider, matching the color space/gamma settings to my log curve of choice?  And then how do I adjust the white balance accurately?

[OleB]

That small project of mine is really interesting for me. Trying to match Barry Lyndon is extremely difficult. The fp is too clean even in ISO 3200 compared to the original footage.

Next thing I have noticed is how soft the image is due to the 0.7 lens they have used. Nothing I could replicate with my 50mm 2.1. 

So am now trying to get closer with added film grain, blur and some sort of focus effect.

[Llaasseerr]

On 8/23/2022 at 9:25 PM, FHDcrew said:

I mean as far as Davinci resolve. Do I use the global HDR slider, matching the color space/gamma settings to my log curve of choice?  And then how do I adjust the white balance accurately?

Right, for exposure as you say use the exp slider in the global bit in the HDR panel and in the ... wing menu set the color space and gamma. Then under the hood it does the transform in linear gamma. The color space doesn't matter for a global exposure adjustment, but you might as well set it anyway. Also the units for the slider are in stops.

For doing a color temperature change in Kelvins, use the Chromatic Adaptation effect and set the source as the current temperature and the target to where you want to go. And again you set the gamma and color space so it does the operation in linear and knows the primaries which is important compared to the global exposure operation. So if it's not raw then it's just the temperature that was baked into the image, which might be in metadata if you check with exiftool or something like MediaInfo.app. Or if you just noted down what you recorded it at.

You can also do tint there, which I assume will also match the raw tab.

[OleB]

Hi all,

about to finish the historical clip. As said, will link it here for your interest.

Meanwhile I have also taken some shots of my little daughter and used that material to give you an idea of how the two LUTs I have posted for you are looking like.

Have not altered anything in the material except for adding the LUTs to show what that camera is capable of. (Shot with my Sirui 50mm 1.6x anamorphic lens wide open, in ISO 400, only natural light, closed some curtains for a little bit of lighting control)

Panasonic Rec709 LUT:

ARRI Classic Rec709 LUT:

 

For me I am personally in love with the rendering of the skin tones and overall colors of the ARRI Classic LUT. Don't ask me how they do it, but the skins are somewhat creamy, whilst the Panasonic approach seems to introduce more contrast.

All in all if you take the ARRI LUT and opt for shooting ISO 800 you will get as well a very nice highlight rolloff. Cannot repeat myself more, love this camera now and what it is cable of doing. 🙂 

[Anaconda_]

Does anyone know of a pistol grip with working start / stop for the FP? I feel like it'd be a great camera to use that way, with the LVF-11. 

[BTM_Pix]

33 minutes ago, Anaconda_ said:

Does anyone know of a pistol grip with working start / stop for the FP? I feel like it'd be a great camera to use that way, with the LVF-11. 

Sigma's official trigger input cable is called the CR-41 and connects to the mic port with a split input to still allow to connect a mic.

Its about €50 and could be used by grafting it onto a pistol grip.

However, JJC do a compatible version that comes out to a cable rather than a switch and its about €18.

JJC also do a pistol grip for around €22 that you can then plug that cable into to complete the process.

The good thing about the pistol grip is that you can then use other compatible cables for different cameras so it isn't tied to just one brand.

[BTM_Pix]

Incidentally, JJC also do a bundle kit with the same cable to provide a wireless solution for the FP for about €34 so it might be worth paying the extra €16 to get that facility as well.

[Anaconda_]

Awesome, thank you!

[j_one]

So what's everyone's take on the FP/FP-L after all the firmware updates, BRAW and Prores Raw unlocks, etc?

I viewed these cameras as a neat party trick: apparently Venice-level color and detail rendering and raw data at the cost of sensor readout/DR and ergonomics.

My guess was, this camera shines in a studio setting where you can meticulously dial in exposure from controlled lighting to make up for sensor DR. It can also work great for drone, gimbal, and crash cam purposes. Think Blackmagic Micro Studio 4k. It cuts in well with Venice and RED footage better than one might think, in a controlled setting.

But, shoot in a high dynamic range scene and your footage may look no different than stuff coming from an LX100. Something is going to clip sooner than you'd like, requiring more grip work.

I was hoping for this or the FP-L to be the next true OG Pocket replacement, but instead I ended up categorizing it with how I view 5D Mark III magic lantern: The perfect camera for me, untouchable color and motion rendering at this price point, at the cost of sensor sensitivity that is more headache than it's worth for anything related to professional work.

 

 

Do the Vlog or Arri Log C color-managed workflows that came from the firmware updates improve latitude or highlight- rolloff?

Also, and finally, which crop modes of both cameras are full sensor readouts?

I think I'm settling on either a used EVA-1 or a Pocket 6k for my next investment (both cameras with generous amounts of sensor DR for any scene), but I thought I'd stop here to see if I'm dismissing sigma too quickly. I really do love their image rendering and product ethos.

[OleB]

12 hours ago, j_one said:

Do the Vlog or Arri Log C color-managed workflows that came from the firmware updates improve latitude or highlight- rolloff?

Suggest that you go through the previous pages of this thread. Usually the complains in regards to DR latitude and highlight rolloff are coming from people who are not understanding how this camera works. Especially the part about ISO 100-800 being same base ISO but with different digital gain levels, thus showing different previews while monitoring and highlight rolloff handling.

This camera is tricky and needs a lot studying, but once you figured out it is capable of producing top notch quality images. Meanwhile there is even a way (via Atomos Ninja V) to have a predictable workflow based on V-log and appropriate LUTs.

To give you some examples about the ISO handling and rolloff.

ISO 100 recorded and left untouched (put through ARRI Rec709 LUT workflow as mentioned earlier in this thread) = bad highlight rolloff

 

ISO 100 pushed to 800 (3 stops to restore shadows as per Sigma guidance), now there is plenty of DR and a nice highlight rolloff

ISO 800 recorded and left untouched in post despite the LUT, for me the best of both worlds and matches what I saw in reality pretty closely

There is also an extensive white paper from Sigma stating exactly what ISO to use and when. 
 

Can only recommend to invest the time to learn the gear inside out. (and that applies most likely every other cinema camera out there as well)

[TomTheDP]

9 hours ago, OleB said:

Suggest that you go through the previous pages of this thread. Usually the complains in regards to DR latitude and highlight rolloff are coming from people who are not understanding how this camera works. Especially the part about ISO 100-800 being same base ISO but with different digital gain levels, thus showing different previews while monitoring and highlight rolloff handling.

This camera is tricky and needs a lot studying, but once you figured out it is capable of producing top notch quality images. Meanwhile there is even a way (via Atomos Ninja V) to have a predictable workflow based on V-log and appropriate LUTs.

To give you some examples about the ISO handling and rolloff.

ISO 100 recorded and left untouched (put through ARRI Rec709 LUT workflow as mentioned earlier in this thread) = bad highlight rolloff

 

ISO 100 pushed to 800 (3 stops to restore shadows as per Sigma guidance), now there is plenty of DR and a nice highlight rolloff

ISO 800 recorded and left untouched in post despite the LUT, for me the best of both worlds and matches what I saw in reality pretty closely

There is also an extensive white paper from Sigma stating exactly what ISO to use and when. 
 

Can only recommend to invest the time to learn the gear inside out. (and that applies most likely every other cinema camera out there as well)

I was switching to 100 iso to actually see my highlight information than back to 800 to see my shadows and then recording in 800. 

Now with 3200 iso you are kind of just winging it, but you are probably also usually shooting at 3200 in lower light situations where blown highlights are not as critical or to be expected with say a street lamp. 

[OleB]

Hi all,

I want to come back on the topic of ISO behavior of the fp. Have tested the camera further over the last weeks and found something interesting.

Think I understand now how the camera works in detail. 

Between ISO 100 and 800 the camera is working in CINE EI mode, with a native ISO 500 following the same rating logic as they have rated ISO 3200 (about 5.42 stops above and 7.04 stops below 18% grey). That means the clipping point is as well the same. Do not understand why they have chosen to declare ISO 100 as the 1st native ISO for video mode. Rather untypical for a cine camera.

When checking the false colors on the Ninja V in native (V-Log) you can see the clipping point jump up and down accordingly while selecting the ISO values mentioned above. 

That means your native selections for ISO should be 500 and 3200 if you do not want to use Cine EI. Nothing else. Just imageing the camera has to be loaded with film stock. You can choose a lower or higher sensitivity. Than compensate too much light with a ND filter, to little by letting in more light. 

ISO values 1000 to 2500 are achieved with analogue gain and will sacrifice image quality. Same applies for all values as from ISO 6400 and above. 

However if you want to use the benefits of Cine EI you can use this knowledge to your advantage as well.

Lower the preview ISO below 1st base ISO 500 you will get more dynamic range shifted to shadows, shift it upwards to ISO 800 you will receive more highlight details (good for rolloff on a bright day). With the 2nd base ISO 3200 you have the option to get some more highlight headroom (to be precise 2/3 of a stop) if you go up to ISO 5000.

Have attached the chart provided by Sigma for visual reference. 

That mixture of using a CINE EI and (analogue gain) ISO is rather special. Some cameras give you the option to use either or, but no camera I know is doing the same as the fp.

Hope this will proof to be a value for some of you to squeeze the best quality out of the fp. 🙂 

[OleB]

Sorry, one thing I missed to point out is that we are talking about a rather technical rating standpoint. It is up to the operator to rate the camera now with this knowledge in mind as you personally prefer.  You could also say that you always want to have as much highlight headroom available as possible and therefore rate the camera 1st ISO 800 and 2nd ISO 5000. Would be even more ARRI'ish ... at least the 1st channel. Or you decide to go for an as clean as possible image sacrificing highlights and make it ISO 100/3200.

[kye]

Just catching up on this thread, and the only thing I can think to say is Damn!  Those images from @OleB are just wonderful.

Great subject / lighting / lens of course, but the sensor in this thing truly does not disappoint!

[OleB]

7 hours ago, kye said:

Just catching up on this thread, and the only thing I can think to say is Damn!  Those images from @OleB are just wonderful.

Great subject / lighting / lens of course, but the sensor in this thing truly does not disappoint!

Thank you Kye 🙂 Totally agree that the sensor is a gem, and with the knowledge provided above you get a consistent workflow as well. 

[OleB]

12 hours ago, kye said:

Just catching up on this thread, and the only thing I can think to say is Damn!  Those images from @OleB are just wonderful.

Great subject / lighting / lens of course, but the sensor in this thing truly does not disappoint!

Let me send you one more pic as a prove of concept. ISO 800, ARRI Rec709 conversion LUT and only a little bit more contrast added. Nothing else done in post. Lens used: Sirui 50mm T2.9 1.6x anamorphic plus my usual 1/4 pro mist filter.

At least for my taste the colors and the highlight rendering is spectacular and leaves nothing to be desired. 🙂

[kye]

53 minutes ago, OleB said:

Let me send you one more pic as a prove of concept. ISO 800, ARRI Rec709 conversion LUT and only a little bit more contrast added. Nothing else done in post. Lens used: Sirui 50mm T2.9 1.6x anamorphic plus my usual 1/4 pro mist filter.

At least for my taste the colors and the highlight rendering is spectacular and leaves nothing to be desired. 🙂

Very nice.  Obviously it's ungraded (a colourist would do lots more work) but it really reminds me of the image from a high-end cinema camera.  I don't know what it is about this image, and the other images from the FP, but they seem to have that subtle rendering of colours and dynamic range that high-end cameras have.  
It's obviously uncompressed, but these days that's less of a differentiating factor, especially with >4K RAW captures.

I had a long discussion on the colourist forums about if the Alexa files have any tweaks built into their files, and someone posted a latitude test which showed that between clipping and the noise floor, normalising the luminance of each under/over image was a perfect match for the the properly exposed one.  This shows that the RAW output is purely logarithmic.  If it wasn't purely log (e.g. if it tinted the shadows or desaturated highlights etc) then you wouldn't get the same image when over/under exposing and normalising on post.

What that said to me was that the magic of the Alexa is either in their LUT (and can therefore be accessed by anyone) or is a factor of the sensor being a very high quality capture of what was in the scene.  I think it's probably both.  I mention this because I think that the FP is also an unusually high-quality sensor that also delivers a very high-quality capture of what was in the scene.  I think it was earlier in this thread that I posted some tests of the FP that showed it was able to capture a very wide gamut, IIRC similar to the Sony Venice.

On paper the FP is really not the right camera for me, but the image is so compelling that I can't eliminate it from my short-list for my next camera, whenever I end up doing an upgrade.  In terms of image quality, I really think that the FP could be the last camera you'd ever need to buy.