Sony A7S III

[JurijTurnsek]

We all know Sony has all the ingredients to make a killer body if they just add a fan and not intentionally cripple it. Hopefully, COVID-19 and R5 lit a fire under their (management's) ass. But I remain highly skeptical - this interview reads more like "don't jump ship to R5, please!".

[hoodlum]

43 minutes ago, JurijTurnsek said:

We all know Sony has all the ingredients to make a killer body if they just add a fan and not intentionally cripple it. Hopefully, COVID-19 and R5 lit a fire under their (management's) ass. But I remain highly skeptical - this interview reads more like "don't jump ship to R5, please!".

I do wonder if this interview was in response to the Olympus announcement along with the Canon coming announcements.  If you believe the rumor site that initially leaked the Olympus closing then Sony has begun to start re-evaluating their camera business.  It depends on how long Sony believe the losses will continue.  Sony has been know to leave businesses quickly if they don't see a quick turnaround.

http://personal-view.com/talks/discussion/24019/sony-will-be-sony-group-could-move-cameras-division-into-separate-company

 

[zerocool22]

Autofocus will prolly also be much faster on the R5 then on a A7S III. (when you are adapting EF lenses that is, which is one of the struggles of using adapters, I hear the sigma mc-11 is a bit better then metabones, but not sure if it only applies for sigma lenses or also canon L glass). For video I don't care that much, but for a hybrid camera for photography it is nice to just hand your camera to somebody and let the autofocus do their thing. The times I gave my camera with manual focus to my wife or strangers I always get out of focus shots back even at f5.6. 

[Video Hummus]

43 minutes ago, hoodlum said:

Sony has been know to leave businesses quickly if they don't see a quick turnaround.

I think it’s just a structural move. It makes it easier to sell ofF camera division if they feel the need or to not hide camera loses in a huge division that they want to show shareholders profit in.

I would be highly surprised they would pull out completely. They may scale back though. Maybe the weak sauce ASPC updates where part of this trend of nominal investment refreshes as the market tumbles and re-adjusts.

They are now the market leader, really. If anything Panasonic is more likely to put out a press release and cease production of LUMIX like they did their TVs.

[Super8]

10 hours ago, Trek of Joy said:

Man the level of disappointment is going to be at an all-time high when the mythical a7s3 is released. A vague comment about things being new and unspecific stuff about raw to stoke the flames. Looks like 4k60p 10-bit internal with raw through HDMI like the Z6/S1h. It'll have Sony's new AF system, hopefully a flippy screen and a competent touchscreen like Canon's, and maybe dual UHS-II cards, but with Sony's recent track record I wouldn't bet on it. Sony fanboys keep calling the R5 a "paper camera" to try and downplay how they've done what Sony claims is coming - completely exceed expectations. Now something with no actual information gets people excited for something that's vaporware at this point. SMH.

My expectations are low based on the last few years of Sony's 8-bit releases, shitty LCD's, UHS-1 slots in 42mp cameras that shoot 10fps, and more - so the new camera really doesn't have to offer much improvement in order to exceed expectations. 

Chris

We will see.  I will go with Sony or Canon depending on which camera is better.  Maybe neither one if they are just spec cameras.  The proof will be in image quality.

Sony will have to jump in the 10bit world and 4K 60p crop is what we might get.  I think release dates will be 2 years apart with lots of firmware updates to keep people from jumping to a new brand. 

 

[joema]

18 hours ago, Django said:

I'm talking about electronic vari-ND.. and if the pocket-sized Ricoh GR & XT100 can do it, there must be a way to include it in a MILC.

I think the Ricoh GR is limited to 2 stops and the XT100 is limited to 3 stops. This is likely because there's no physical space in the camera to move the ND element out of the light path when disabled. This is due to the large sensor size and small camera body. I don't know the specs but a 2-3 stop variable ND can probably get closer to 0 stops attenuation when disabled. A more practical 6 stop variable ND can't go to zero attenuation but will have at least 1 stop on the low end. Nobody wants to give away 1 stop in low light conditions.

A boxy camera like the FS5 has a flat front which allows an internal mechanism to vertically slide the variable ND out of the light path when disabled. A typical mirrorless camera doesn't have this space.

I agree an internal electronic variable ND would be a highly valuable feature. Sony has the technology. If the A7SIII features, price and video orientation are  similar to the S1H, maybe somehow they could do it. Some time ago Dave Dugdale drew a rough cutaway diagram of a theoretical large-sensor mirrorless camera which he thought could house a variable ND with an in-camera mechanism to move it out of the light path. I can't remember what video that was in.

[Andrew Reid]

2 hours ago, joema said:

I think the Ricoh GR is limited to 2 stops and the XT100 is limited to 3 stops. This is likely because there's no physical space in the camera to move the ND element out of the light path when disabled. This is due to the large sensor size and small camera body. I don't know the specs but a 2-3 stop variable ND can probably get closer to 0 stops attenuation when disabled. A more practical 6 stop variable ND can't go to zero attenuation but will have at least 1 stop on the low end. Nobody wants to give away 1 stop in low light conditions.

A boxy camera like the FS5 has a flat front which allows an internal mechanism to vertically slide the variable ND out of the light path when disabled. A typical mirrorless camera doesn't have this space.

I agree an internal electronic variable ND would be a highly valuable feature. Sony has the technology. If the A7SIII features, price and video orientation are  similar to the S1H, maybe somehow they could do it. Some time ago Dave Dugdale drew a rough cutaway diagram of a theoretical large-sensor mirrorless camera which he thought could house a variable ND with an in-camera mechanism to move it out of the light path. I can't remember what video that was in.

Good post

I think the leaf shutter compacts like X100 need a 2 or 3 stop ND for exposures in bright light at F2. The Sony RX1 had a maximum mechanical leaf shutter speed of 1/2000 but no ND in that and I found it tricky to avoid overexposure in sunlight. On some cameras e-shutter kicks in to give you 1/8000 but then you get rolling shutter.

The FS5 variable eND I don't remember moving out of the way but I could be wrong on that. I think the sensor stack just goes clear. If you move glass out of the way it changes the focus and image quality, doesn't it? I could be wrong about that.

The easiest "slide out the way" solution for me would be to have a slot-in ND filter over the sensor that inserts into the camera like a memory card behind a door. This way you can quickly take it out or put it in without messing with filter rings or adapters.

The ideal solution would be an eND that goes clear.

The other solution would be variable ND in the lens adapter but it wouldn't sell very many native mirrorless mount lenses. Canon's for example only works with EF lenses!

[JoshuaVerwers]

On 6/29/2020 at 11:35 AM, Andrew Reid said:

Pro Color 5 - Coming Soon

 

This is exciting. I bought Pro Color 4, earlier this year, hoping it worked on my a6600, so I'm excited to hear this is coming. 

It's also going to be interesting to see what all is actually in these new Sony and Canon cameras. I think we are the ones who really benefit from direct competition like this. 

[Video Hummus]

13 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

The easiest "slide out the way" solution for me would be to have a slot-in ND filter over the sensor that inserts into the camera like a memory card behind a door.

They need to make these: https://stcoptics.com/en/clip_filter/

but with lens mount contacts and a eVND that allow pass through but also somehow is powered off the pins. Probably not possible without building a lens mount with this in mind.

I think current eVND use a fair mount of power. 

[Snowfun]

To what extent might “iso” merge with an  electronic variable ND function? I’m thinking out aloud here but it seems to me that sensor technology doesn’t need to advance much further to enable that option. Of course, ND restricts the amount of light reaching the sensor whereas “iso” determines what the sensor does with it so there is a key difference. But in terms of the end result might they not be effectively the same (assuming DR and latitude etc remain constant which I presume current sensor technology doesn’t achieve)? 

[joema]

On 7/1/2020 at 10:00 AM, Andrew Reid said:

The FS5 variable eND I don't remember moving out of the way but I could be wrong on that. I think the sensor stack just goes clear. If you move glass out of the way it changes the focus and image quality, doesn't it? I could be wrong about that.

The easiest "slide out the way" solution for me would be to have a slot-in ND filter over the sensor that inserts into the camera like a memory card behind a door. This way you can quickly take it out or put it in without messing with filter rings or adapters.

The ideal solution would be an eND that goes clear.

The other solution would be variable ND in the lens adapter but it wouldn't sell very many native mirrorless mount lenses. Canon's for example only works with EF lenses!

See attached for Sony internal eND mechanism. You are right there are various approaches, just none really good that fit a typical large-sensor, small mirrorless camera. This is a very important area, but it's a significant development and manufacturing cost who's benefit (from customer standpoint) is isolated mostly to upper-end, hard-core video-centric cameras like the S1H or A7SIII. It's not impossible, just really hard. Maybe someone will eventually do it. The Dave Dugdale drawing (which I can't find) was kind of like a reflex mirror rather than vertical/horizontal sliding. It may have required similar volume to a mirror box, which would be costly. For a typical short-flange mirrorless design, I can't see physically where the retracted eND element would fit.

[joema]

On 7/2/2020 at 4:17 AM, Snowfun said:

To what extent might “iso” merge with an  electronic variable ND function? I’m thinking out aloud here but it seems to me that sensor technology doesn’t need to advance much further to enable that option. Of course, ND restricts the amount of light reaching the sensor whereas “iso” determines what the sensor does with it so there is a key difference. But in terms of the end result might they not be effectively the same (assuming DR and latitude etc remain constant which I presume current sensor technology doesn’t achieve)? 

Excellent point, and that would be the other possible pathway to pursue. It avoids the mechanical and form factor issues. Maybe someone knowledgeable about sensor development could comment. Given a high development priority, what are the practical limits on low ISO? Of course ISOs are mainly digital so going far below the native ISO would have negative image impact. In theory you could have triple native ISO, with one super low to satisfy the "pseudo ND" requirement, and the other two native ISOs for normal range.  But that would likely require six stops below normal range and a separate chain of analog amplifiers per pixel. You wouldn't want any hitch in image quality as it rises from (say) ISO 4 or 8 up to normal levels.  I just sounds difficult and expensive.

[photographer-at-large]

https://www.sonyalpharumors.com/third-confirmed-spec-a7sii-successor-records-fhd-240fps-4k120fps-10bit-422-and-4k120fps-raw-over-hdmi/

[Coiii]

I promise if this camera has Venice Color or the new Cinetone from the FX9 I'll sell all my Canon lenses and my A7III to buy the A7SIII with a GMaster prime set.

[MeanRevert]

1 hour ago, photographer-at-large said:

https://www.sonyalpharumors.com/third-confirmed-spec-a7sii-successor-records-fhd-240fps-4k120fps-10bit-422-and-4k120fps-raw-over-hdmi/

So basically ZCam?

[ntblowz]

still no active cooling means overheating can still be possible.  Guess only Panasonic can record unlimited 4K60P atm with an actual fan.

[Andrew Reid]

On 7/5/2020 at 6:18 PM, joema said:

See attached for Sony internal eND mechanism. You are right there are various approaches, just none really good that fit a typical large-sensor, small mirrorless camera. This is a very important area, but it's a significant development and manufacturing cost who's benefit (from customer standpoint) is isolated mostly to upper-end, hard-core video-centric cameras like the S1H or A7SIII. It's not impossible, just really hard. Maybe someone will eventually do it. The Dave Dugdale drawing (which I can't find) was kind of like a reflex mirror rather than vertical/horizontal sliding. It may have required similar volume to a mirror box, which would be costly. For a typical short-flange mirrorless design, I can't see physically where the retracted eND element would fit.

Thanks for that. So it does need quite a bit of space to move out of the way after all.

Solution would be to have the camera be wider, with larger back screen, and slide the internal filter to the right towards the grip.

[ntblowz]

1 minute ago, Andrew Reid said:

Thanks for that. So it does need quite a bit of space to move out of the way after all.

Solution would be to have the camera be wider, with larger back screen, and slide the internal filter to the right towards the grip.

Sounds like the Blackmagic Pocket 4K/6K could accommodate it?  Too bad BM waste all that camera space with such a wide body.

[photographer-at-large]

https://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sony-a7sii-successor-has-new-12mp-sensor/

[wolf33d]

What a joke if true. 12mpx sensor and no quad bayer? 
I guess we will find out soon. 

if that’s the case they will loose tons of customers starting with me. A lot of people want a do it all camera for photo and video. 12mpx is not enough, so people will take the R5 or R6.