Which microphone\recorder setup to use for hidden camera type of recording?

[Amazeballs]

I have a project where I need to record conversations with people using a hidden camera. The conversation most of the time involve two people in the midst of a crowded city, so there is plenty of a background noise. Right now I am using a lav mic connected to a phone which is defiantly not the best solution. I tried sokani wireless system, but again its a lav mic but most importantly the signal is not stable, it cuts often cos of the abundance of other radio signals in the area. So rode wireless go wont work as well. Lav mic with phone gives very mediocre results. You can hear a person wearing it, but other person sometimes is hard to hear. 

So which setup would you recommend? I need something portable as well, so a person can hide main recording unit and microphone somewhere. Right now, an interviewer is a girl and she snaps a lav mic to her bag, like a fluffy toy and nobody notices cos it looks like something natural. So I can hang a bigger fluffy toy, by which I mean a deadcat with a bigger mic on her bag, but I need to know what king of mic to use. Shotgun is not a great idea, cos you need to direct it to a talking person. This one she cannot direct, just choose and keep her distance.  

[kye]

I'm just going to assume what you're doing is completely legal and ethical and all that stuff....

Maybe a smaller shotgun mic attached to the outside of her bag and pointed diagonally up?  If she held her bag to the side then the mic would be lying across the front of her bag and she could kind of aim it toward the person.  Handling noise would be an issue of course, but that would be easy enough to sort out if you gave her a live feed of the sound from the mic and she walked around a bit to practice.

[newfoundmass]

I don't know that you're going to be able to do much better than a lav into a recorder under those circumstances. If they were sitting in a public place or something, you'd be able to figure out places to hide it, like in a plant or something, but it sounds like your subjects will be moving? 

Maybe some kind of stereo mic? But the background noise might make that difficult? 

[Bret Seckinger]

I"m curios to know if she's going to record the audio and video by herself. If yes, that would be super challenging but if you are going to be around, record the voice on an iphone. Just get her to put on a polo shirt (Anything with a front pocket around the chest area). Either way, let us know what happens. Sounds challenging. Not the talking part but having a proper setup or something close to it to get good results.

 

[IronFilm]

9 hours ago, Amazeballs said:

I tried sokani wireless system, but again its a lav mic but most importantly the signal is not stable, it cuts often cos of the abundance of other radio signals in the area. So rode wireless go wont work as well.

That's because Sokani/Rode are cheap junk, you shouldn't have high expectations of them working well except in easy limited situations. 
 

9 hours ago, Amazeballs said:

Lav mic with phone gives very mediocre results. You can hear a person wearing it, but other person sometimes is hard to hear. 

That's because the other person is not wearing a lav.......   easy solution here: put a lav on them!

Or is there some reason they can't? Would help a lot of you explained specifically the details of what you're filming. 

The normal solution here when you can't put a lav on every single subject, is for the interviewer you refer to, to be using an Electro-Voice RE50 (or similar, and if they're skilled... a Sennheiser MD46! Just got one of these myself last week). 

But if you want this mic to be hidden from shot all the time and you can't use a lav on everyone?? (and of course you can't boom it either)

Wellllllll....... your questions are starting to sound like if you asked a cameraman, "how can we shoot in total darkness while underwater??" You're not going to like the answers! As the answers will involve heavy compromises / lots of expenses / lots of setup time / inconvenient / constraining / ugly / all of the above & more!

[UncleBobsPhotography]

4 hours ago, IronFilm said:

"how can we shoot in total darkness while underwater??" You're not going to like the answers! As the answers will involve heavy compromises / lots of expenses / lots of setup time / inconvenient / constraining / ugly / all of the above & more!

That's easy! Use a sonar! Just don't come complaining about the resolution...

And in this situation you can just hire a lip reader.

For microphones, I can think of a better solution than lavs/shotguns mics.

 

[kye]

Looks legit!

[bjohn]

There are small individual recorders that can be clipped to a person's trousers or belt, and you run your lavs into those recorders, but then syncing can be a problem if those recorders aren't saving timecode that's synced to the camera. The ideal solution for this would be the Tentacle Sync Track E recorder, but it's not yet available (production got delayed due to COVID). You would get two Track E recorders for the people doing the talking and a regular Sync E for your camera and they'd all be in sync. You can sync by waveform, but that could be tricky if your hidden camera is at a distance (the waveforms will not match very well).

There are a few other small recorders that do this, but none as far as I know do timecode. I have the tiny Zoom F1, which I wouldn't recommend to anyone as it has poor sound quality, gain settings for lavs in steps rather than a smooth dial control.

[IronFilm]

3 hours ago, bjohn said:

You would get two Track E recorders for the people doing the talking and a regular Sync E for your camera and they'd all be in sync. You can sync by waveform, but that could be tricky if your hidden camera is at a distance (the waveforms will not match very well).

No, you'd sync via timecode. 
 

3 hours ago, bjohn said:

There are a few other small recorders that do this, but none as far as I know do timecode.

Oh there are lots more available! From Zaxcom/AudioLtd/Lectrosonics/etc, but I'm going to take a wild guess than even secondhand these will be way way way outside @Amazeballs's budget. 
 

3 hours ago, bjohn said:

There are small individual recorders that can be clipped to a person's trousers or belt, and you run your lavs into those recorders, but then syncing can be a problem if those recorders aren't saving timecode that's synced to the camera. The ideal solution for this would be the Tentacle Sync Track E recorde

I agree this would be a great "no budget" solution for this to be using Tentacle Sync Track E recorders (if they were available! Meant to be shipping very "soon"), except @Amazeballs said he can only put a lav on one of the people, not both. (although the reasoning of this would be awesome if it was shared as to why...)

[kye]

Perhaps slightly off-topic but I once saw a BTS doco of how they filmed Big Brother (I think it was BB Australia) and although it was before I got into video, I remember it being really interesting especially about recording sound and isolating various areas so specific conversations could be heard clearly.  IIRC the spa was also a challenge to get clean audio out of.

That was a really long time ago, but if you can find it, that might be useful / interesting to watch.

[Amazeballs]

5 hours ago, IronFilm said:

(although the reasoning of this would be awesome if it was shared as to why...)

Cos its a hidden camera recording. I cannot put a mic on a person who doesnt know he is being recorded, obviously. 

The whole project is a form of a social experiment. 

Right now I am thinking about getting a Zoom F1 or Tascam DR 10L as a somewhat affordable recorder. Thought I am not sure how much exactly it will boost the quality over a phone + lav mic and if it worth the investment. We shall see.  

Tascam is nice because you can boost gain and use a secondary -12\-6 db track to get the most out of someones quite voice + better battery live + more portable

Zoom on the other hand can be used with any other zoom microphone add-ons and I happen to have at least one.  Plus better screen I guess. 

Not sure which root to go yet.

About sync - it would be nice to have but not necessary as I figured out a way to do it manually. 

[Snowfun]

25 minutes ago, Amazeballs said:

The whole project is a form of a social experiment.

That raises significant ethical issues... 

Are you sure that this is a good idea?

[Amazeballs]

3 minutes ago, Snowfun said:

That raises significant ethical issues... 

Are you sure that this is a good idea?

I am sure. What ethical issues?  

After the recording the ppl are being informed that they've been recorded and asked for permission to use the video. If they refuse their faces would be blurred.  

[Snowfun]

34 minutes ago, Amazeballs said:

What ethical issues? 

I have to say that this worries me more! 

If it is, as you say, a “social experiment” then the majority of civilised societies have rules regulating such research. The “its a social experiment” defence no longer works for “upskirting” (now a specific offence in the UK for example). I’m not suggesting that you are doing anything remotely like that but even to ask someone whether they like Coke or Pepsi whilst secretly filming them has implications in terms of “experiment” or “research”. Or is It really just a bit of fun? Asking retrospective permission is not informed consent! 
(But I work in a heavily regulated medical research field so am probably biased!)

[Amazeballs]

But how about journalism then? How can you investigate something and see unaltered people reaction? Cos if you tell a person he is being filmed he will behave completely in a different way than when he doesn't know that. 

Anyway in our country nobody gives two shits about human rights so its not a big deal you should worry about. 

Considering Youtube policies (and this is going on youtube) - its clear. If someone (if!) will report that he was recorded without his consent Youtube may (!) ask you to blur his head out or remove the video. That's it. 

[IronFilm]

7 hours ago, kye said:

Perhaps slightly off-topic but I once saw a BTS doco of how they filmed Big Brother (I think it was BB Australia) and although it was before I got into video, I remember it being really interesting especially about recording sound and isolating various areas so specific conversations could be heard clearly.  IIRC the spa was also a challenge to get clean audio out of.

Big Brother (and other similar reality productions) have:
A purposely setup set for filming on (so it will hopefully be fairly quiet! Unlike when trying to get stealth recordings in open busy streets, yikes, that's noisy)
All the talent wearing neck mics. 
Additional, they've likely put in a massive amount of work in carefully placing plant mics throughout the set. 

All of this isn't a possibility for @Amazeballs 

 

4 hours ago, Amazeballs said:

Right now I am thinking about getting a Zoom F1 or Tascam DR 10L as a somewhat affordable recorder. Thought I am not sure how much exactly it will boost the quality over a phone + lav mic and if it worth the investment. We shall see.  

. Go for the Tascam DR10L (if you can't wait for the Tentacle Sync Track E), it is better than a phone with a lav because:
Locking connector. 
Dual/safety level recordings. 
Better form factor. 

Especially for your purposes, either of those first two factors might come in super handy to save your ass. 

Thus my (almost) "no budget" recommendation for you, as the best of the worst options is this: 
Get a Tascam DR10L (or the Sync Track E if you can at all wait!), plus a 2nd DR10L (or Sync Track E) that you use as a "plant mic" that the interviewer carries with them. 

Ideas of where you could "plant" it:
Inside a fake coffee cup? (as even if they're only holding the coffee cup a couple of feet away from their body, and closer to the subject, every inch counts!)
The edge of a clipboard? (you could likely get the far side edge of the clipboard even closer than a coffee cup would)
The point of an umbrella or the handle?

If you can handle hiding the bulk, then a Tascam DR10X (or Deity HD-TX if you need P48) with a better mic than a lav would be an even better solution!

This would require a lot of ingenuity on your part, coming up with a stealth way to hide this "plant mic" carried by the interviewer that is congruent with the style of the shoot. Every production is different. 

Likewise, you're going to need a skilled interviewer who is on their toes and committed to this as well. No point craftily hiding a mic built into a clipboard, only to have them be holding the clipboard hanging uselessly from their side. That would sound even worse from the subject than the interviewer's own lav!!

 

4 hours ago, Amazeballs said:

Zoom on the other hand can be used with any other zoom microphone add-ons and I happen to have at least one.  Plus better screen I guess. 

Zoom's crappy add-ons should not influence your decision. 
And the screen doesn't matter 99% of the time, as the talent is wearing the bodypack. 
 

4 hours ago, Amazeballs said:

About sync - it would be nice to have but not necessary as I figured out a way to do it manually. 

You'll change your mind about the benefits of timecode syncing when you're got hundreds of hours of footage across many days worth of recording to sync up manually. That's a recipe straight from hell. 

 

3 hours ago, Snowfun said:

That raises significant ethical issues... 

Sorry but I guess your ivory tower medical research bias is showing, in the real world this methodology for production can be surprisingly common. Especially on the likes of a documentary (and other forms of productions too, there are adverts made like this, or news comedy shows). Quite usual to have a field producer (or even just a PA) run after a person to get permission from them. (and of course, if you don't get permission, then you can't show them) They'll chase them down even in circumstances when it was extremely obvious you were filming them, such as when a cam op with a FS7 is in clear view nearby (or heck, the reporter is using a stick mic!). The reason is because you don't want to interrupt the natural flow by stopping the action to get signatures on release forms, you let it play out first and then you immediately follow up. 

 

3 hours ago, Snowfun said:

I’m not suggesting that you are doing anything remotely like that but even to ask someone whether they like Coke or Pepsi whilst secretly filming them has implications in terms of “experiment” or “research”.

There would have been countless adverts made for many different brands exactly like this. Asking what they prefer, then getting permission after filming.  (although yes, there would be productions too which ask beforehand. Just depends on the agency/director/brief/etc as to what works best)

[Thomas Hill]

I second the DR10L. I've used them as regular lavs and as plant mics. You could crank the gain to hi+ for the interviewee and have the -10db safety track for the interviewer. Or better, yet, use two of them.

As far as ethical worries: Impractical Jokers, What Would You Do? and Candid Camera. Nothing new there.

[Amazeballs]

I guess DR10L then is the way to go. Thanks everyone!

[IronFilm]

Remember, your real problem is the situation you're in. Gear alone won't solve anything, rather careful thinking and ingenuity is what is needed so as to make the best out of a very bad situation for audio.