Pro-Mist Filters

[MrSMW]

Bit of a minefield to the uninitiated such as myself.

Well not so much minefield but so many options!

Black, white, glimmer, satin, strengths...

I watched a video that had every single one side by side but it didn't help and if anything caused further confusion.

They are not cheap so it's not a case of even getting some and trying them, so looking for any direct experience.

I'm currently shooting *cough* weddings in an attempted *cough* 'cinematic' style.

Define 'cinemantic'...

Well for me, a slightly nostalgic, film-like look with shallow DOF but no over the top processing or anamorphic flares etc. Looks like it could have been shot on film stock, but wasn't.

XT3, Fringer Pro, Sigma 18-35mm f1.8 is my combo.

I also use a variable ND in order that I can shoot wide open most of the time.

I'm happy with my baked in straight out of camera look which is based on shooting; 4k 60p, DCI 17:9 crop, tweaked Classic Chrome (not Eterna), 400% dynamic range (so min 640 ISO), but of course that Sigma is very sharp, even with sharpness turned right down.

I do very little post-processing partly for workflow/time reasons and partly because I don't need or want to, but I'd still like to develop an even more 'filmic/cinematic' look baked in hence my interest in filtration.

So the specific question is who has used any of these Tiffen filters, which one's, why, experience, opinions etc...

[heart0less]

Actually, we've already had a little talk about them in this thread in case you missed it:

Feel free to continue the discussion here, as the original topic was closed.

 

And a tiny bit of what you can achieve in post:

 

[MrSMW]

@heart0less thanks, I'll take a look.

That second post is the video I watched!

 

[Inazuma]

I made this thread years ago 

 

The Ultra Contrast softens the transitions between light and dark in a really nice way. I ended up getting the strength 3 version. Footage shot with it will require a bit of post work - mainly increasing the contrast and saturation. Maybe some tint adjustments. 

These days I mainly use the Black Pro-Mist 1/4. It gives a slight bloom to the edges and slight softening of contrast. It just takes that digital edge off a little without requiring additional post work. It seems to me that most professional productions use this filter or something like it.

The weakness of all these filters is when you shoot directly into a strong light source. The image looses a lot of its contrast. It's like using a lens without any coating. 

If you look on ebay you can sometimes get these filters for a lot less than retail.

[MrSMW]

Aaaargh, that thread was just getting interesting with some views on different strengths and types of Tiffen filters used but...

OK, looks like a toss up between Black Pro-Mist or possibly Black Glimmer which according to the chart offers a bit less halation?

Haze. Damn. That is a reminder and a half. I bought 2 spray cans of 'Fantasy FX' I think it's called a couple of years back and never once remembered to take them to a job.

I just stuck a can in my camera bag.

I appreciate there is no definitive answer to any of this stuff and never will be, but will look at a 1/4 option of each of these and see where that leads...

[kye]

1 hour ago, MrSMW said:

Aaaargh, that thread was just getting interesting with some views on different strengths and types of Tiffen filters used but...

OK, looks like a toss up between Black Pro-Mist or possibly Black Glimmer which according to the chart offers a bit less halation?

Haze. Damn. That is a reminder and a half. I bought 2 spray cans of 'Fantasy FX' I think it's called a couple of years back and never once remembered to take them to a job.

I just stuck a can in my camera bag.

I appreciate there is no definitive answer to any of this stuff and never will be, but will look at a 1/4 option of each of these and see where that leads...

If you have some time and don't mind fiddling around a bit, you could buy some second hand and then sell the ones you don't like.  That way you get to test them.

I found the primary difference between having one physically and simulating in post was that physical ones flare light-sources out of frame, and also flare more/less depending on how bright the light is, but of course you can't adjust them - it does what it does and you're stuck with it.  In post it's the opposite.

The other path is to simulate stuff in post and do a bunch of tests and see if that gives you what you need.

[MrSMW]

Makes sense @kye and see you had been somewhat busy in that linked post 😉

I decided to go spend some money...but not on any Black Pro Anything's but a set of Freewell ND variables to replace my cheap Gobe.

I was going to get a 6-9 stop Polar Pro but 2 things stopped me.

1: I also need a 2-5 and having 2x Polar Pro was a bit cost-prohibitive.

2: I don't exist to provide Mr P. McKinnon with an income and wonder how much of the cost is because his scribble is on the box?

Budget won't run to anything else this year but this twin pack made sense as the 2-5 is perfect for my Sigma which is primarily used indoors and the 6-9 is ideal for my Tamron 45mm f1.8 which is my principal outdoor lens.

I'll keep researching these other filters though and the post-production option over the next few months.

[kye]

1 minute ago, MrSMW said:

Makes sense @kye and see you had been somewhat busy in that linked post 😉

I decided to go spend some money...but not on any Black Pro Anything's but a set of Freewell ND variables to replace my cheap Gobe.

I was going to get a 6-9 stop Polar Pro but 2 things stopped me.

1: I also need a 2-5 and having 2x Polar Pro was a bit cost-prohibitive.

2: I don't exist to provide Mr P. McKinnon with an income and wonder how much of the cost is because his scribble is on the box?

Budget won't run to anything else this year but this twin pack made sense as the 2-5 is perfect for my Sigma which is primarily used indoors and the 6-9 is ideal for my Tamron 45mm f1.8 which is my principal outdoor lens.

I'll keep researching these other filters though and the post-production option over the next few months.

Probably a wise investment.  Cheap NDs are the enemy of good colour.

I should also say, happy to share some settings or whatever.  I can't remember if I did in the original thread. 

Or post some stills you have and some inspiration stills and we can all have a go seeing if we can match them.  That's fun to play around with 🙂 

[MrSMW]

OK, maybe I'll do that some time soon...

[heart0less]

15 minutes ago, MrSMW said:

Budget won't run to anything else this year but this twin pack made sense as the 2-5 is perfect for my Sigma which is primarily used indoors and the 6-9 is ideal for my Tamron 45mm f1.8 which is my principal outdoor lens.

Have you considered other offers?
I happen to own Tiffen Variable ND and can wholeheartedly recommend it.

It doesn't affect contrast, sharpness and bokeh and offers up to 8 stops of filtration.
Sure, it has a slight color cast, but I custom WB every time I arrive on location, so it's not a big issue for me. 

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/813278-REG/Tiffen_77VND_77mm_Variable_Neutral_Density.html

[MurtlandPhoto]

Here's some test footage I shot last year with the Tiffen BPM 1/4. As you can see, the look varies pretty widely depending on whether there's a strong light source in frame or not. Some shots are probably a bit too drastic for corporate work. For my taste, I like to see the obvious effect. Otherwise why bother? 😄 

 

 

 

[MrSMW]

@heart0less considered, watched comparison and other types of review and based on all factors, went with the Freewell twin pack at £200.

As long as I don't have any lenses above 72mm filter thread, I'm good for the rest of my career!

(I have a feeling that when Fuji do bring out the 50mm f1.0, I am going to want it to replace the Tamron 45mm f1.8 and it's going to have probably an 82mm filter thread...)

[MrSMW]

@MurtlandPhoto this is going to sound slightly disingenuous and I don't mean it to be, but YouTube compression etc and without 'before and after' it's impossible to judge.

Despite this being a visual media, I'm more going on typed, "I tried the 1/8th and it was a bit weak but the 1/4 was perfect" x37 forum members/video channels.

But as has been mentioned above, usually you just have to try these things yourself and see what floats yer boat!

[MurtlandPhoto]

4 hours ago, MrSMW said:

@MurtlandPhoto this is going to sound slightly disingenuous and I don't mean it to be, but YouTube compression etc and without 'before and after' it's impossible to judge.

Despite this being a visual media, I'm more going on typed, "I tried the 1/8th and it was a bit weak but the 1/4 was perfect" x37 forum members/video channels.

But as has been mentioned above, usually you just have to try these things yourself and see what floats yer boat!

I’m not quite sure what you mean. Compression affects grain and noise structure certainly, but I can easily see the effects of BPM even in 240p footage.

[BenEricson]

Personally I think the Hollywood Black Magic looks the best, I guess that's why they are 3x the price. 

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/902702-REG/Schneider_68_091277_77mm_Hollywood_Magic_1_2.html/?ap=y&ap=y&smp=y&smp=y&lsft=BI%3A514&gclid=Cj0KCQjw3ZX4BRDmARIsAFYh7ZKxoiVQZaVbry28uO0USKsce2g2Ig6cGmYMLjLKQf7C-pLdxaODvzoaAkUiEALw_wcB

[Inazuma]

On 7/7/2020 at 2:36 PM, MurtlandPhoto said:

. For my taste, I like to see the obvious effect. Otherwise why bother? 😄 

 

exactly!

[Parker]

Personally I'm a fan of Tiffen's warm black pro mist filters, I alternate between 1/8 and 1/4 depending on whether I'm using vintage or modern lenses, I love the warmth and I feel like it helps me nail skin tones better, and of course the soft, subtly blooming highlights are lovely. 

[bjohn]

3 hours ago, BenEricson said:

Personally I think the Hollywood Black Magic looks the best, I guess that's why they are 3x the price

I have the 1/4 and 1/8 Hollywood Black Magic filters and they are indeed very nice (I got them to reduce the harshness of the Sigma 18-35 and give it a bit more character, which they sort of succeed at doing but I think I just don't like that lens). The main thing to watch out for with these filters is speckly bokeh, which can happen if you've got an object in focus in the foreground with out-of-focus lights in the background. It looks pretty weird when it happens; you can find examples by typing "speckled bokeh" into a youtube search or on Google.

[kye]

2 hours ago, bjohn said:

I have the 1/4 and 1/8 Hollywood Black Magic filters and they are indeed very nice (I got them to reduce the harshness of the Sigma 18-35 and give it a bit more character, which they sort of succeed at doing but I think I just don't like that lens). The main thing to watch out for with these filters is speckly bokeh, which can happen if you've got an object in focus in the foreground with out-of-focus lights in the background. It looks pretty weird when it happens; you can find examples by typing "speckled bokeh" into a youtube search or on Google.

My understanding is that the speckled patterns in bokeh are to do with any textures in / on the lens.  You get them if you use a mesh for diffusion: https://www.provideocoalition.com/the-secret-life-of-behind-the-lens-nets/

I also thought that it can be if you've got dirt or something inside the lens or on the front filters?

[bjohn]

1 hour ago, kye said:

My understanding is that the speckled patterns in bokeh are to do with any textures in / on the lens.  You get them if you use a mesh for diffusion: https://www.provideocoalition.com/the-secret-life-of-behind-the-lens-nets/

I also thought that it can be if you've got dirt or something inside the lens or on the front filters?

No, it's due to the filter. See this comment from Ryan Avery, who knows a thing or two about lenses and filters:

http://disq.us/p/28697ul

"As with all filters like the Tokina Black Alchemy, Schneider Hollywood Black Magic, and Tiffen Black Soft F/X; you have avoid long lens bokeh effects (in focus subject in the foreground with out of focus lights in the background such as cityscapes, streetlights, panel lights, etc), and avoid shooting wide open past T2 on sensors S35 and above. The filters hold up perfectly as long as very apparent point source bokeh where the subject is close to the lens are avoided. Once at deeper focus, further from the lens, the effect speckle bokeh is gone."