No culture or heritage in Nikon's Z series

[Django]

I started on Nikon and still have a few nice lenses but the company has made some puzzling decisions lately and are really lagging heavily behind the competition..

 Z6/Z7 weren’t at all bad efforts though imo, they are probably even my favorite current FF mirrorless design & ergonomics. I like the grip, front buttons, photo/video switch etc. The 35mm F1.8 S lens is also very nice. 

That said, Nikon has zero momentum. It’s like it released those cameras & lenses, made the ProRes RAW announcement and then dosed off into a coma.

The D6 is a joke of an update spec wise.

Z6S/Z7S? Yawn..

Nikon do need a serious shakeup or they may very well end up going the Nokia route as far as epic downfalls go!

 

[ND64]

17 minutes ago, Django said:

The D6 is a joke of an update spec wise.

Almost nobody in its target customers buy that beast for video. And when it comes to still shooting there is no meaningful difference between D6 and 1DX. I don't know why you think every single camera that a camera maker releases should be a video workhorse. And a lot of video spec you assume "essential" is only appealing for a very small number of people. Honestly I've never heard a wedding photographer say "it would be nice if my camera had internal raw video recording". Most of them don't even know how to grade, and hate large files. I would instead bash Nikon for not offering cinematic picture profile, which is exactly what these people need. 

[MrSMW]

55 minutes ago, Eric Calabros said:

Honestly I've never heard a wedding photographer say "it would be nice if my camera had internal raw video recording". Most of them don't even know how to grade, and hate large files.

Hello!

Couldn't give a crap about internal or external raw video or 8k or much grading. Tried f-log. Hated it. Tried HLG, ditto. Cooked up my own recipe for getting it 'right' in camera (or at 90% of where I want it to be) and the result is start in the morning and finish in the afternoon, export, upload, clients happy.

55 minutes ago, Eric Calabros said:

I would instead bash Nikon for not offering cinematic picture profile, which is exactly what these people need. 

This is exactly what I, the self-confessed not a 'serious filmmaker' wants and needs which is why I like and use Fuji over anything else.

I'm not exactly dripping in cash, especially not this year, but could otherwise comfortably run to a S1H's or even Canon's new R5's if I felt those manufacturers offered what I want and need.

But the simple fact is they are overkill for 'hybrid weddingographers' (TM) like myself. 

Partly what my post the other day about Pro-Mist filters was about. I'm not interested in sitting behind my PC all day long and so the more I can get out of in camera, the better.

I like Nikon's colour. I like Olympus's colour. I like Panasonic and Canon and Leica and...Fuji offer me what I like most though regardless of cost and I'm even sticking with XT3 over XT4 as it suits my needs better.

And this is where I think Nikon need to get off their arse and that is offering a product to a particular market whatever market that may be.

Possibly Nikon's biggest problem at the moment is not so much what Nikon are not doing, but what Fuji, Canon and Panasonic are doing and Sony were doing. They are another that need to up their game.

Having said that, they all keep leapfrogging each other in various ways from time to time.

XT4 is quite popular now despite a few IBIS and AF wobbles. Once the R6 and R5 are launched, it will be yesterday's news. 

More innovation and differentiation and products that people actually want to use please!

[Super8]

4 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

What do you suggest existing Z6 owners do?

Bearing in mind our cameras cost $2500 new and are now worth half!

Pony up the cash AGAIN for a few tiny improvements? Not going to happen!

The Z6S rumoured specs are insulting.

A new Z6 is going for roughly $1,795.   It seems to have held it's value.

The Z6S rumored specs with duel processor and card slot, 4K60p doesn't seem like an issue if it's more of a lateral move in price.  The "S" seems like it's a Mark II upgrade and not a new camera release.

Now Nikon needs to address the R5 / A7SIII models and deliver the "as close too" specs as they can.   We have the S1H and now R5 / A7SIII as flagship releases. 

I actually like the Z6S rumor because it pushed upgrades but not all the way to 6K or 8K and Nikon can still do RAW OUT.   

[nickname]

i´m sorry, but the first image completely contratdicts everything you say about nikons design heritage. and the nikon 1 image shows clearly that there is no connection to the z design language.

the z bodies handle like photographic tools. they did not forgoe their past like some competitors who flushed their aquired DSLR history down the drain.

this is the rant of a spec nerd and not of a photographer or a videographer. the video quality that´s coming out of of the z cameras is totally fine and sufficient for the enthusiast. who wants absolute image quality will not look at hybrids anyway.

as you yourself have shown there is no significant difference in image quality between 10bit recording hybrids today. this singling out and bashing of nikon that is all the fashion these last months is silly in my opinion.

[noone]

I had a brief affair with Nikon when I was married to Pentax (now divorced and Nikon left me too).

 

Dunno what it is but i have no desire for anything Nikon now no matter how good it is.     I guess it might just be too expensive to go there.

Really liked SOME of their lenses though.     Come to think of it, I left when they started making their lenses less usable on older cameras and less adaptable to other systems.

Still, I hope they get things right  for their fans.

[Super8]

Good discussion everyone.

Nikon and the Z6 got hammered with bad reviews, fair reviews and spec diving that they couldn't recover from.   The Z6 even got hurt by "the A7SIII is gonna....." and this was 2 years ago.

I like what the S1 can do spec wise but bad AF tracking cripples it.  It looks like the same sensor as Z6 and is priced more. 

It all comes down to who you want to invest in. 

 

[TheBoogieKnight]

What happened to the incredible new glass that was going to arrive, revolutionary, never-before-seen lenses that could only be done with the Z mount? We got the Noct of course and the others are (very) sharp but I was expecting something a bit different (a 24-105 F2.8 perhaps or at least something). It's been nearly 2 years.

[gethin]

I'm reasonably monogamous.  I've had a fling with the gh5 but it didn't last.  I've seen people rave about the z6 image. Can anyone on here that has used multiple systems comment on that.  I work in environments where I can't control the light. Even with internal 8 bit I have a way easier time in post than I did with the gh5.

[IronFilm]

5 hours ago, Super8 said:

A new Z6 is going for roughly $1,795.   It seems to have held it's value.

The Z6S rumored specs with duel processor and card slot, 4K60p doesn't seem like an issue if it's more of a lateral move in price.  The "S" seems like it's a Mark II upgrade and not a new camera release.

Now Nikon needs to address the R5 / A7SIII models and deliver the "as close too" specs as they can.   We have the S1H and now R5 / A7SIII as flagship releases. 

I actually like the Z6S rumor because it pushed upgrades but not all the way to 6K or 8K and Nikon can still do RAW OUT.   

Am going to go against the grain here of what most in the forum think, and say that the two most important cameras for Nikon to release next are not the likes of a R5/S1H/a7Smk3/etc competitor, but instead:

Nikon Z30 that is priced sub $400 (including a kit lens). 

Where is the rest of the specs of this dream "Nikon Z30" camera?

The only spec about the Z30 that is important is that price, almost nothing else matters. Don't care if it is a 20 or a 28 megapixel sensor. Don't care if it has IBIS or not. Don't care if it even has a mic input or not. Don't even care if it has a flip out screen or an EVF or not. Shock horror, don't care at all if it has 4K or 120fps slow motion!!

All the Nikon Z30 has to do is hit that sub $400 price point. Because the buyers of these cameras don't care about much else. And the harsh reality is cameras like the Canon T7/M6/M100/etc sell a lot! And any mount system which can get many many many new users into it, is going to be a healthy strong system into the long term. 

Nothing would make me happier about the Nikon Z system than to see a camera released which can match, or even undercut, Canon's low end pricing. 

Of course if Nikon can throw in even a couple of small extra specs as a cherry on top, like a mic input, 4K (even if it is D500/Z50 type 4K), and unlimited recording, then you'd get heaps and heaps of vloggers buying one for their studio camera, or 'hybrid weddingographers' (TM) buying one as their B / C Cams to use alongside their main Z6/D780 camera bodies. 

The most important lens the Z System to release next? That's a Z Mount version of their Nikon 35mm F1.8G DX, as that was a strongly compelling point in favor of Nikon DX over Canon EF-S. Because Canon completely lacked an affordable Normal FoV EF-S prime to start out with as your next starter lens purchase after your kit lens.

(I'd argue Nikon's 2nd most important lens would be an affordable and compact 50mm f2 FF Z Mount, because their Nikon Z 50mm f/1.8 S Lens is huge in price, size, and quality. Some people want those first two to be really small, and don't mind compromising on the last point if that's what is required. An affordable compact 50mm would be welcomed by both Nikon Z6/Z7 owners looking for a small travel kit, and by newbie Z30 owners too)

 

And the other camera which is important for Nikon to release for the Z System? 

Nikon Z50s, which is basically just a Z50 with IBIS and without the 4K crop the Z50 has. Nothing else is needed (although unlimited recording or 10bit output would be very welcome too, and a flip out screen instead of the silly flip down screen!). That would create the competitive "vlogging camera" that the Z50 (and G100!) was not. Not just the "vloggers", but the rest of us too, I think the Z50 surprised us that is largely was a D7500 in a mirorless body (awful crop + no IBIS) after the Z6 gave us no crop and IBIS. 

So just give us a Z50s with IBIS and without the crop!! That's all we want. (after all the likes of say an a6600 does that, yet lacks 10bit etc. At least Nikon be competitive against Sony's APS-C mirrorless, even if you're not beating the GH5/X-T4/etc of the world)

Well at least no more is needed in a Z50s from our biased videographer perspective.... I think from a photographer's perspective the Z50s should be dual SD slot and other stuff that Nikon D7x00 (which is where the Z50 is priced at) users expected such as a Commander Mode from the internal Z50 flash that was missing. 

[Super8]

10 hours ago, Geoff CB said:

I honestly think more people would have gone for the Z6 if Nlog was available internally. Even if it was 8-bit.

At this point I'm really looking at switching to Sony still cameras. Probably the new A7s sometime in the fall. Unless the Z6 v2 absolutely blows me away there are too many strikes against the Z system. Including it's abysmal support from 3rd party lens manufacturers and no cinema line to move up to and use native glass on. 

I love my Nikon z6 to death, especially for photo work. But I'm not making money off photography, I need to commit to a system that can handle all my needs for video. Also people in the industry shoot on Sony and Canon, no one I work with uses Nikon. Which is a big deal for a second camera operator on these shoots.

What kind of second camera work are you talking about? Are they using A7III and what Canon model?  

Second camera work with the Z6 rigged out or not will give you AF tracking in video, 10 bit out if needed and better color.   That's important for a second camera operator.

[Geoff CB]

17 hours ago, Super8 said:

What kind of second camera work are you talking about? Are they using A7III and what Canon model?  

Second camera work with the Z6 rigged out or not will give you AF tracking in video, 10 bit out if needed and better color.   That's important for a second camera operator.

The ability to match the color easily and swap the lenses is more important than the bit depth, and I'm someone who is obsessed with bit depth.

Recently was shooting a short and needed a gimbal shot to match my Sony F3, I shot on a friends A7s instead of the Z6 because of the ease of matching the two, because I knew the editor wasn't going to do an intense grade in post.

[gethin]

OK! suddenly 4K 60 8bit internal isn't looking quite so exciting. 😄 I mean 8k is overkill, but for future-proofing the stock video I shoot, it definitely doesn't hurt.  And being able to shoot 4k at 100fps instead of 50 (because shooting in houses with 50hz electricity makes 60  fps a no-no).  

Unless of course in 5 years time if your video isn't 16K HDR 360, 14 bit raw nobody will want to know it.  In which case I may as well not sell all my nikon gear 

[Danyyyel]

On 7/8/2020 at 6:57 PM, rawshooter said:

IMHO you nailed it, @Andrew Reid - Nikon is going down the route of Olympus. Nobody is going to buy into the Z system except owners of Nikon SLR AF lenses, and that won't be enough to keep the company alive as a camera manufacturer. Nikon already makes more than 60% of its revenue with industrial and medical imaging. I wouldn't be surprised if they spin off the imaging division at some point, after which it will die sooner or later.

You should go to Nikon groups to see how many did come back, many from Sony. My guess Panasonic and then Sony will be the next to quite. These big corporation will quite as everyone can see that the Camera market is virtually dead. They have much bigger fries to cater too. For Panasonic it is battery and solar pannel, we are talking trillions of dollars expanding exponentially market. In 10 years the majority of car will be electric. For Sony it is playstation and sensor market for example. I saw some stats not so long ago and while Nikon camera division was like 35% of its revenue it was lower to 5% or Sony or Panasonic. While Nikon it is survival for them, I see easily a market about half of today's with only Canon and Nikon sharing it between them.

[Danyyyel]

Its extraordinary how people are misinformed about Nikon. I mean is it perfect, no, but which 2k camera is. firstly about construction, the Z line construction is as good as it gets. Its not me or some anecdotal feeling but expert in camera construction. Many feel bigger is better, I myself find it to be a little small but in this world, doing a d850 size mirrorless is suicide. For me I have the smallrig cage permanently on now, it givesme a better overall grip and I prefer bigger cameras anyway, but I understand them with the Mirroless must be small Jihadist.  This tells you how good it is constructed, there was a pro wildlife photographer that told about his experience in the artic where the D850 stopped working at extreme temperatures while his Z still worked until very very low. 

https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2018/10/teardown-of-the-nikon-z7-mirrorless-camera/

 

 

[PannySVHS]

@Danyyyel I think S1H and S1 are used on many productions. You just don´t see these productions with Lumix tags. Professionals sometimes do not communicate their camera brands. Nothing shall distract from the message of their customers. GH5 the same. GH5 is still going strong. G100 or whatever it is called is a joke of course.

On 7/9/2020 at 10:49 PM, Geoff CB said:

The ability to match the color easily and swap the lenses is more important than the bit depth, and I'm someone who is obsessed with bit depth.

Recently was shooting a short and needed a gimbal shot to match my Sony F3, I shot on a friends A7s instead of the Z6 because of the ease of matching the two, because I knew the editor wasn't going to do an intense grade in post.

F3, I love you mentioning this beautiful letter- number- combo. 🙂

[Inazuma]

What a strange headline. And how exactly did the EOS R and RP show culture and heritage? The Z line cameras trump Sony's in SOOC image. No they don't have internal LOG but they do have a dynamic range setting that works in video which gives plenty of DR while still retaining Nikon's superb colour science. In addition they have great feeling bodies and great ergonomic features such as the Stills/Video switch. Their IBIS and AF is also reliable. Their 1080p and 4k image are detailed and uncropped. 

What Nikon lacks really is focus. Why do some of their bodies have full flip out screens, some have just vertical tilts and some tilt 180 degrees down? Why do they keep releasing APS-C bodies but only ever release zoom lenses for them? Why did they go mirrorless and create a large diameter mount but then still make primes that are big and expensive (and ugly)? Why are they making a lower-end Z5 when that market is already flooded and they still lack native lenses? 

[Danyyyel]

What I am really sad is that people on site like here (because believe me a lot of people are using the Z for video in Nikon groups etc) don't  give a serious look at what Nikon is doing. As a d810, d750 to the D70 15 years ago user, the most enjoyable camera I have used are my 2 z6. As a hybrid shooter I can just flick a button and switch from video or photo mode.

Now for me the z6 could have been a little bigger, double card slot and 4k 60p and 10 bit and log internal. The double card slot and 4k 60p seems to be coming in a next update about September, october. I would really really like a 10 bit and internal log, it would be a dream come true, but at least if it is not possible with current tech (look at overheating in R5 R6) you have the possibility to use the Ninja V. I mean if a z6 with a Ninja V is too big for anyone, I am out of breath. I mean it is smaller than using an entry level camera like the Nikon D3500 and a flash. And if you do any video seriouly that need 10 bit and Log you will have to carry tripods or Ronin etc.

Now the good part, the z6 is the best experience shooting I have. I mean with the fantastic viewfinder, excellent IBIS, touch screen and best of all autofocus, I can shoot handheld like doing photos. For reportage style that I do for a well known worldwide broadcaster, it is a game changer. Doing B-rolls don't need to put on a tripod anymore. Except for very smooth pan or walking shot that I will use tripod, stabilizer or interview setup and higher end job. The auto-focus is super good and getting better with every extra firmware update. Last year when it was about buying a BM camera to compliment the z6 (60fps 4k and eventually raw) the auto-focus killed that though. This combined with slowmo 120fps at 1080p gives such good quality. That 120 fps is underrated, even if it 1080p it is still gorgeous. I would hope even a 4k 120 fps or even a crop or a 2,7k version, just to intercut it a bit closer to the 4k.

Now it terms of usability, you have 3 U setting button that I configured to 24, 60 and 120 fps with all corresponding shutter speed. I would have liked for them to have included banks that I could choose because I live in a Pal country but shoot for an American one and also for creative job shoot at 24 fps. There are two user configurable button in the front and have configured on to swith from FX to DX mode and the other for changing focus mode. You also have a very nice rear touch LCD with rapid menu that you can also configure to your need. In the end the z6 is the most versatile and ergonomic camera I have ever use. I can change aperture, shutter speed and ISO just with my thumb and upper finger.

Now there are things I have been experimenting lately with the the app, where I can sync timecode using the automatic time which uses gps etc, and rack focusing with it.

 

 

[Danyyyel]

35 minutes ago, Inazuma said:

What Nikon lacks really is focus. Why do some of their bodies have full flip out screens, some have just vertical tilts and some tilt 180 degrees down? Why do they keep releasing APS-C bodies but only ever release zoom lenses for them? Why did they go mirrorless and create a large diameter mount but then still make primes that are big and expensive (and ugly)? Why are they making a lower-end Z5 when that market is already flooded and they still lack native lenses? 

Yep, their are some strategic errors they did and are supposed to correct in the S line which is closer to a 1.9 version. Double card slot for one and that thing of not putting a fully rotating back screen baffles me as they had one in the D5600. It is as if sometimes they want to be beaten. For the lens somehow I will cut them some slack because by the end of this month they will have released 16 lens, which are either very very good to exceptional. They have two pancake primes coming out in their timeline. I think the z5 is easy to make with more or less z6 part and they can tap into a lot more people for a full frame 1000 to 1200 camera which might be as compact as the z50.

[Marcio Kabke Pinheiro]

Well, if Nikon wants me to buy some heritage, just release a Z6 in a S3 2000 like body and some 2.8 compact lenses.