Canon EOS R6 shoots 10bit 4K/60 (but NO RAW) - How it compares to the EOS R5

[PaulUsher]

5 hours ago, Matt James Smith ? said:

My experience is that bitrate impacts motion artefacts in IPB footage (higher=better, obvs). 170mbps in h265 is pretty high. Almost up there with the C300mkII 10bit ALL-I 4K (about 400mbps in h264 I believe). I’d be quite hopeful it’s going to be decent IPB, and I’d choose IPB a lot anyway, if I had the choice, simply to keep file size down. A Ninja V can be used if Intra frame is really needed. Hell, the C200 can’t even do 10bit external 4K. It’s not a disaster for me. 
 

Rolling shutter and overhearing remain the big question marks.

Yeah the R6 is certainly not a disaster, there are worse problems to have than deciding on a camera upgrade 😉 I’ll wait till there’s real word footage, I want to test it, but it looks like a good entry point to the RF line for most. 

As an early adopter I can testify to the benefits of RF. My problem is I’ve made the R+Ninja work so well for me that I’m struggling to think of the R6 as an upgrade (though it will be for some, each to their own use case).

My summary from another thread:

Comparing it to the R6, the R Classic has ALL-I, true 24p, (vs IPB 23.98p), 4K 1:1 native readout for APSC, or 1:1 4K FF with Metabones (plus the speed booster’s benefits), 28ms rolling shutter vs 31ms of 1DXIII sensor, mini HDMI (vs R6’s micro), lighter for a gimbal, 30 megapixel stills vs 20mp, £1000 cheaper (used) for newcomers and it definitely doesn’t overheat. Same colour science, same log. But it lacks 60p in 4K, the improved IBIS, and the improved autofocus of the R6. I don’t use slomo so I’m really not sure whether it’s worth the upgrade for me as the R’s DIS works well and the autofocus is already blazing. It’s the IBIS I’m interested in: 8 stops is gimbal-like, and destroys any rolling shutter artefacts. Need to see more footage....

[Silenkiller]

So uh with the overheating issue looks like back to the 1dxm2????

[gt3rs]

52 minutes ago, Silenkiller said:

So uh with the overheating issue looks like back to the 1dxm2????

1dx iii you mean as it does not have the overheating limits.... similar tech but much bigger body.

[padam]

19 hours ago, PaulUsher said:

Comparing it to the R6, the R Classic has ALL-I, true 24p, (vs IPB 23.98p), 4K 1:1 native readout for APSC, or 1:1 4K FF with Metabones (plus the speed booster’s benefits), 28ms rolling shutter vs 31ms of 1DXIII sensor, mini HDMI (vs R6’s micro), lighter for a gimbal, 30 megapixel stills vs 20mp, £1000 cheaper (used) for newcomers and it definitely doesn’t overheat. Same colour science, same log. But it lacks 60p in 4K, the improved IBIS, and the improved autofocus of the R6. I don’t use slomo so I’m really not sure whether it’s worth the upgrade for me as the R’s DIS works well and the autofocus is already blazing. It’s the IBIS I’m interested in: 8 stops is gimbal-like, and destroys any rolling shutter artefacts. Need to see more footage....

One can use the 1.4x crop mode on the R6, that's still a lot better than the 1.75x crop on the R and a lot less rolling shutter (probably around 16ms, same as a C300 Mark III)
Or with the full sensor, the ISO is a huge improvement. And there is room to engage the digital IS on top of the IBIS without really degrading the quality.

With the speed booster + EOS R basically looses all access to any other frame rates
It practically becomes a 1.24x crop 4k30p EF-mount-only camera, with quite a bit of rolling shutter, e.g. quite limited.
And of course there is that 1080p 120fps which is the other Achilles heel of the EOS R.

Overall, the R6 is miles ahead of the R for video, it is a baby 1DX III (with 10-bit and Canon Log, it kills the 1DX II as well, less compressed, but 8-bit 4:2:2 no Log or FF 4K)

The only question is will it receive a price drop after the early months, because if it does not, then it is probably better to get one as soon as possible.
It does not seem overpriced at 2500$ compared to 2300$ original MSRP the EOS R, which is worth almost half as much now.
The Metabones Speed Booster makes them even closer in terms of pricing, so it is does not look like something worth spending for.

[icarrere]

My main complain is C-Log and its 12 stops of DR

[zerocool22]

5 minutes ago, icarrere said:

My main complain is C-Log and its 12 stops of DR

What about a custom picture profile, would we able to get more DR? Wondering what the DR is in photomode, perhaps good old magic lantern to the resque?

[Silenkiller]

1 hour ago, gt3rs said:

1dx iii you mean as it does not have the overheating limits.... similar tech but much bigger body.

Cant afford a 1dx m3 but yo m2s are used for like 3k right now lol

[gt3rs]

23 minutes ago, Silenkiller said:

Cant afford a 1dx m3 but yo m2s are used for like 3k right now lol

Sold mine for 2900 $ in march, 230’000 shutter click probably you can now find them around 2600 $

[PaulUsher]

1 hour ago, padam said:

One can use the 1.4x crop mode on the R6, that's still a lot better than the 1.75x crop on the R and a lot less rolling shutter (probably around 16ms, same as a C300 Mark III)
Or with the full sensor, the ISO is a huge improvement. And there is room to engage the digital IS on top of the IBIS without really degrading the quality.

With the speed booster + EOS R basically looses all access to any other frame rates
It practically becomes a 1.24x crop 4k30p EF-mount-only camera, with quite a bit of rolling shutter, e.g. quite limited.
And of course there is that 1080p 120fps which is the other Achilles heel of the EOS R.

Overall, the R6 is miles ahead of the R for video, it is a baby 1DX III (with 10-bit and Canon Log, it kills the 1DX II as well, less compressed, but 8-bit 4:2:2 no Log or FF 4K)

The only question is will it receive a price drop after the early months, because if it does not, then it is probably better to get one as soon as possible.
It does not seem overpriced at 2500$ compared to 2300$ original MSRP the EOS R, which is worth almost half as much now.
The Metabones Speed Booster makes them even closer in terms of pricing, so it is does not look like something worth spending for.

You make a nice case for the R6, especially as a crop sensor camera. I’m sure it will be useful for those coming to the R line afresh looking to maximise its strengths. Does it have a 1.4x crop? I thought it needs to be at least 1.6x for the APSC lenses. 1.4x can land you in awkward focal lengths. I don’t think it works for me personally.

Don’t get me wrong, for most coming to the RF system, the R6 is a better entry point, especially vloggers who want super stable selfies/ walk-and-talks, and B-rollers who love super slowmo.

I don’t really shoot slomo though, mostly doc, some video/photo journo (occasional narrative but don’t really recommend any Canon cam for that). I prefer 1:1 readout over binning (even that downsampled FHD on the R), I’ve grown accustomed to true 24p ALL-I internal or solid HMDI out, and I want to enjoy the benefits of a speedbooster. I approach the R as more a M43 camera (approx 1.8-1.9x crop with DIS) whereas R6 - if it only works in a 1.4x or 1.6x without overheating - is more a S35 camera.

As I’ve learned over 18 months of use to mitigate RS with the right lenses and techniques (it’s actually pretty easy when you know how) and built a chestpod for some use cases, I’m only left wondering whether the R6 and super stabe is worth trading my R for; it’s a just a quandary for me personally because of the way I‘m now set up to shoot. For me though, personally, the R6 seems to offer neither the benefits of FF 4K without overheating or the M43+booster approach.

[Silenkiller]

Gotta find out if the r6 over heats in the lower IPB mode 4k60 full frame

[padam]

45 minutes ago, PaulUsher said:

You make a nice case for the R6, especially as a crop sensor camera. I’m sure it will be useful for those coming to the R line afresh looking to maximise its strengths. Does it have a 1.4x crop? I thought it needs to be at least 1.6x for the APSC lenses. 1.4x can land you in awkward focal lengths. I don’t think it works for me personally.

Don’t get me wrong, for most coming to the RF system, the R6 is a better entry point, especially vloggers who want super stable selfies/ walk-and-talks, and B-rollers who love super slowmo.

I don’t really shoot slomo though, mostly doc, some video/photo journo (occasional narrative but don’t really recommend any Canon cam for that). I prefer 1:1 readout over binning (even that downsampled FHD on the R), I’ve grown accustomed to true 24p ALL-I internal or solid HMDI out, and I want to enjoy the benefits of a speedbooster. I approach the R as more a M43 camera (approx 1.8-1.9x crop with DIS) whereas R6 - if it only works in a 1.4x or 1.6x without overheating - is more a S35 camera.

As I’ve learned over 18 months of use to mitigate RS with the right lenses and techniques (it’s actually pretty easy when you know how) and built a chestpod for some use cases, I’m only left wondering whether the R6 and super stabe is worth trading my R for; it’s a just a quandary for me personally because of the way I‘m now set up to shoot. For me though, personally, the R6 seems to offer neither the benefits of FF 4K without overheating or the M43+booster approach.

Yes I know, I am annoyed that it looks so good on paper that it is hard to resist.
Although I will build up my lens kit first and keep using the R for now, that is always better. But if I see a deal that gives some discount over the MSRP, I will jump on it.

The 1DX III has a 1.33x crop mode, and it is cinema 4K, so I guess the 1.4x UHD crop on the R6 is pretty accurate. I have some really great compact Leica lenses with a nasty magenta cast towards the edges and heavy vignetting.
They are getting completely cropped out for video, so it's a dream scenario for me, if the IBIS continues to function well with these, it's a huge improvement over 1.75x crop and no IBIS even if I ignore the frame rates. But I actually shoot the 720p 120p sometimes, so I won't, it is a really great feature to have.

The Sigma 18-35/1.8 is also downright perfect for covering this image circle, so I sincerely hope it won't force the camera into a 1.6x crop mode or something when mounting it, with the latest firmware it does that on the EOS R, no option to shoot FF.
The Canon EF-S 10-18/4.5-5.6 IS STM also covers this crop through almost the whole zoom range.

Both should work, but whether Canon will allow them to work, we don't know, it would be pretty stupid to restrict these, but we know how Canon does things.

[Silenkiller]

40 minutes ago, padam said:

Yes I know, I am annoyed that it looks so good on paper that it is hard to resist.
Although I will build up my lens kit first and keep using the R for now, that is always better. But if I see a deal that gives some discount over the MSRP, I will jump on it.

The 1DX III has a 1.33x crop mode, and it is cinema 4K, so I guess the 1.4x UHD crop on the R6 is pretty accurate. I have some really great compact Leica lenses with a nasty magenta cast towards the edges and heavy vignetting.
They are getting completely cropped out for video, so it's a dream scenario for me, if the IBIS continues to function well with these, it's a huge improvement over 1.75x crop and no IBIS even if I ignore the frame rates. But I actually shoot the 720p 120p sometimes, so I won't, it is a really great feature to have.

The Sigma 18-35/1.8 is also downright perfect for covering this image circle, so I sincerely hope it won't force the camera into a 1.6x crop mode or something when mounting it, with the latest firmware it does that on the EOS R, no option to shoot FF.
The Canon EF-S 10-18/4.5-5.6 IS STM also covers this crop through almost the whole zoom range.

Both should work, but whether Canon will allow them to work, we don't know, it would be pretty stupid to restrict these, but we know how Canon does things.

Lets hope it doesnt overheat when cropped too

[PaulUsher]

42 minutes ago, padam said:

Yes I know, I am annoyed that it looks so good on paper that it is hard to resist.
Although I will build up my lens kit first and keep using the R for now, that is always better. But if I see a deal that gives some discount over the MSRP, I will jump on it.

The 1DX III has a 1.33x crop mode, and it is cinema 4K, so I guess the 1.4x UHD crop on the R6 is pretty accurate. I have some really great compact Leica lenses with a nasty magenta cast towards the edges and heavy vignetting.
They are getting completely cropped out for video, so it's a dream scenario for me, if the IBIS continues to function well with these, it's a huge improvement over 1.75x crop and no IBIS even if I ignore the frame rates. But I actually shoot the 720p 120p sometimes, so I won't, it is a really great feature to have.

The Sigma 18-35/1.8 is also downright perfect for covering this image circle, so I sincerely hope it won't force the camera into a 1.6x crop mode or something when mounting it, with the latest firmware it does that on the EOS R, no option to shoot FF.
The Canon EF-S 10-18/4.5-5.6 IS STM also covers this crop through almost the whole zoom range.

Both should work, but whether Canon will allow them to work, we don't know, it would be pretty stupid to restrict these, but we know how Canon does things.

I hear ya, it’s been tempting. And yeah Canon always find some way to break your heart...

l’ll be interested to see what the crop factor the R6 has. The 10-18 and 18-35 are among my favourites too. Avoided that firmware to keep enjoying the 28-35mm end FF 🙂

I tend to buy grey market for best value. Some dealers offer service warranty - if you’re in the UK I recommend HDEW. 

[padam]

20 minutes ago, Silenkiller said:

Lets hope it doesnt overheat when cropped too

The only camera I ever managed to get to overheat was the A6500 indoors after 15 minutes, and that is a 6K readout, so I don't think a 4K readout without any oversampling is that bad.

If I was shooting longer events, I would probably invest in the Atomos recorder, it lifts the 30-minute limit, it is cheaper to record to SSD anyway, Prores is better for editing and it's definitely nice to have a bigger screen. The micro-HDMI is annoying though.
To be honest, even the EOS R would do well for that specific usage and it costs almost half as much.
But for running around, taking shorter clips, high frame rates with the most minimalist package, the R6 looks to be amazing in comparison.

If overheating is the most important thing ever, then the A7SIII is looking pretty good (for quite a bit more money probably)
But most people want a camera, that is equally capable at capturing still images.

Right now, there isn't anything out that there, that just "hits the balance" the way the R6 does (photo/video capabilities at the right price point)
If it delivers in practise as well, it looks to be a huge hit, just like the A7III was two years ago.

[SteveV4D]

1 minute ago, padam said:

If overheating is the most important thing ever, then the A7SIII is looking pretty good, but most people want a camera that is equally capable at capturing still images.

Not me... I rarely shoot stills.  A small form camera for video use is my choice.  Not to say, an extra camera that does shoot stills wouldn't be handy for the odd times I am asked and forced to do Photography, and a replacement for the GH5 as my run n gun video tool as well.  I'm stuck whether the R6 would achieve that.  It'll need an firmware update to make that something I would invest in.  I'm in no rush.  Of course, if the overhearing is found to be a genuine issue even with the R6, forget it.  I've avoided Sony for that reason after someone I employed cost me a Ceremony recording with one, and I won't invest if Canon have decided to be the new Sony.

 

[padam]

13 minutes ago, SteveV4D said:

Not me... I rarely shoot stills.  A small form camera for video use is my choice.  Not to say, an extra camera that does shoot stills wouldn't be handy for the odd times I am asked and forced to do Photography, and a replacement for the GH5 as my run n gun video tool as well.  I'm stuck whether the R6 would achieve that.  It'll need an firmware update to make that something I would invest in.  I'm in no rush.  Of course, if the overhearing is found to be a genuine issue even with the R6, forget it.  I've avoided Sony for that reason after someone I employed cost me a Ceremony recording with one, and I won't invest if Canon have decided to be the new Sony.

 

Yes, there are always different needs and different solutions. It is easy enough to rent or buy and potentially return it.

Most people here don't even want to pay for the extra quality for 4K
I looked at 1DX III 1080p footage and it seems good enough for me (Even the EOS R was good enough and it is a bit better that that)
So the R6 is probably also stellar as a 1080p camera as well with zero issues and minimal file sizes.

It is crazy to think that quite a few people got the 1DX II, deal with its many foibles, and they didn't even shoot in 4K because of the crazy file sizes (and some of the R5 recording modes make those small, lol), they just wanted that 1080p 120fps with AF which looks soo good.
And now here we are with a camera that is cheaper and has almost none of those issues, a few cost cutting and crippling here and there, but it's perfectly acceptable considering what others do at this price point.

[Silenkiller]

With the ibis and AF i can look past having to shoot 4k60 in crop mode if i have to.. just needs to not overheattttt

[PaulUsher]

4 hours ago, padam said:

I sincerely hope it won't force the camera into a 1.6x crop mode

R6 1.6x (& R5 1.6x) crop mode confirmed - by Canon in the ProAV interview (around the 1 hour 11 min mark.) So not 1:1 - it’s binning?

No 1:1 4K across either camera. All oversampled 4K overheats. R5 has one 4K mode that probably won’t  overheat - it’s full frame but binned. R6 has one 4K mode that probably won’t overheat - it’s cropped and binned.

Canon also say in that interview that no 1080p mode is oversampled. It’s always binning from full width.

R Classic: 1:1 4K and oversampled 1080p - in m43 crop mode that can be speedboosted (upto 30p only).

So all three are decent but soft 1080p FF cameras (with the R offering oversampled crop 1080p). As for reliable 4K, Canon have three cameras:

R5 FF 60p camera (binned)

R6 S35 60p camera (binned)

R m43 30p camera (1:1)

 

 

[padam]

27 minutes ago, PaulUsher said:

R6 1.6x crop mode confirmed - by Canon in the ProAV interview (around the 1 hour 11 min mark.) So not 1:1 - it’s binning.

No 1:1 4K across either camera. All oversampled 4K overheats. R5 has one 4K mode that probably won’t  overheat - it’s full frame but binned. R6 has one 4K mode that probably won’t overheat - it’s cropped and binned.

Canon also say in that interview that no FHD mode is oversampled. It’s always binning from full width.

R Classic: 1:1 4K and oversampled FHD - in m43 crop mode that can be speedboosted. 

That would be upscaled 4K on the R6 with 1.6x crop as there aren't enough pixels (unlike on the EOS RP) it does not make sense to me, and it would be quite bad indeed

And it would really push the R5 being the better 4K video camera with the better rolling shutter in the binned 4K mode, and full-fledged FF and APS-C options with great quality.

All the rest matches what I expect, only this one seems to be the weird one and I am not 100% that it was correctly told and I don't see it in the spec list either to confirm or deny it.
Maybe it only forces it with EF-S lenses (that would be bad, too but understandable) and let FF lenses to be punched into 1:1 crop?
The 1DX II and 1DX III both recorded in that mode.

As soon as somebody shows what happens with the movie cropping enabled, we'll see it anyways, and we'll see some rolling shutter measurements, too.
There is plenty of time to get one anyway 🙂

[PaulUsher]

7 minutes ago, padam said:

That would be upscaled 4K on the R6 with 1.6x crop as there is not enough pixels (unlike on the EOS RP) it does not make sense to me, and it would be quite bad indeed

I mean, yikes