padam Posted July 12, 2020 Share Posted July 12, 2020 5 minutes ago, PaulUsher said: I mean, yikes Yikes indeed. Unfortunately you are probably right with this one, as I tried to look it up everywhere, and Canon Europe says it is a "62% crop of the horizontal area", which is right around 1.6x I understood the IPB compression with the UHS-II cards apart from 4k60p it is an artificial limitation, but whatever. But a 1:1 crop would have required less processing and much better quality and much more like their APS-C cinema cameras, so not happy about it at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ntblowz Posted July 12, 2020 Share Posted July 12, 2020 Could fit if it use 1.5x like Nikon do, they got UHD in crop mode that is 1:1 on their 20MP FF camera Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulUsher Posted July 12, 2020 Share Posted July 12, 2020 8 minutes ago, ntblowz said: Could fit if it use 1.5x like Nikon do, they got UHD in crop mode that is 1:1 on their 20MP FF camera The issue is the RF cameras need a 1.6x crop (at least) to be compatible with Canon’s EF-S lenses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulUsher Posted July 12, 2020 Share Posted July 12, 2020 30 minutes ago, padam said: Yikes indeed. Unfortunately you are probably right with this one, as I tried to look it up everywhere, and Canon Europe says it is a "62% crop of the horizontal area", which is right around 1.6x I understood the IPB compression with the UHS-II cards apart from 4k60p it is an artificial limitation, but whatever. But a 1:1 crop would have required less processing and much better quality and much more like their APS-C cinema cameras, so not happy about it at all. If the R6 had been a 26mp sensor then a 1:1 crop would have covered their EF-S lenses. Come to think of it, the RP is 26mp isn’t it? With a 1.6x 4K crop mode! But the 4K lacks DPAF or c-log or something... I forget how they crippled it lol. What a mess. We all want just one camera that ticks the boxes - not four that somehow don’t! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
padam Posted July 12, 2020 Share Posted July 12, 2020 5 hours ago, PaulUsher said: If the R6 had been a 26mp sensor then a 1:1 crop would have covered their EF-S lenses. Come to think of it, the RP is 26mp isn’t it? With a 1.6x 4K crop mode! But the 4K lacks DPAF or c-log or something... I forget how they crippled it lol. What a mess. We all want just one camera that ticks the boxes - not four that somehow don’t! Besides no DPAF in 4K, the RP has the worst rolling shutter after the Sony A6300 and the dynamic range not great, so yes, not good for serious video (still not too bad for 1080p considering it's still cheap). I have used it as a second camera on a tripod in 4K and manual focus, and it worked fine for that, actually the battery held up better than I expected and no signs of overheating (I guess disabling DPAF does have its advantages there). That 20MP sensor is very well balanced for video and stills, they have been using one in the 1DX II and III which people were forced to buy if they've found 5D IV to be too weak, they've just crippled it too much after bringing it down to this low price point. One pretty much has to shoot it in FF (1.07x crop) and deal with the severe rolling shutter and take advantage of the superb IBIS and because it is oversampled, the digital IS can be utilised as well without degrading quality at a noticeable level, great ISO and dynamic range as well. So I guess despite all of this crap, it will still look good. Or it can shoot in 1080p, which is still fine, just like on the EOS R, but it starts to look like quite bad value, double the price to have IBIS and 1080p 120fps, joystick (that's actually very good for pulling focus when shooting with the screen flipped out, so it can't be touched) dual card slots, fast shooting rate, but also less megapixels for stills, inferior screen, no top LCD, etc. I wonder if they consider adding in the 1:1 crop mode in firmware if enough people complain about it, but it's not like taking away 24p so I don't think they will, it would be too good for the price amongst Canon cameras... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulUsher Posted July 12, 2020 Share Posted July 12, 2020 2 hours ago, padam said: That 20MP sensor is very well balanced for video and stills, they have been using one in the 1DX II and III which people were forced to buy if they've found 5D IV to be too weak, they've just crippled it too much after bringing it down to this low price point. One pretty much has to shoot it in FF (1.07x crop) and deal with the severe rolling shutter and take advantage of the superb IBIS and because it is oversampled, the digital IS can be utilised as well without degrading quality at a noticeable level, great ISO and dynamic range as well. So I guess despite all of this crap, it will still look good. Or it can shoot in 1080p, which is still fine, just like on the EOS R, but it starts to look like quite bad value, double the price to have IBIS and 1080p 120fps, joystick (that's actually very good for pulling focus when shooting with the screen flipped out, so it can't be touched) dual card slots, fast shooting rate, but also less megapixels for stills, inferior screen, no top LCD, etc. I wonder if they consider adding in the 1:1 crop mode in firmware if enough people complain about it Yeah in the end it’s going to produce decent images in the higher quality mode, and most target users may not see the IQ differences we’re discussing (though they may notice the overheating..) The reliable modes (incl 1080p) will be great for YouTubers especially, they already love the R. It’s just not the upgrade, or camera, I was REALLY hoping for. I think we’re still waiting for a camera of true convergence - that you can use for traditional critical paid work in one moment, then strap round your neck for personal/social media in the next. But it’s getting pretty close. There’s an argument that for some use cases, the reliable modes of both R5/R6 already deliver the dream. Someone will argue that the XT4 does too. Someone else will suggest another camera ticks all their boxes. Bottom line is every man’s bar is set differently. When we step away from our judging tables, and put away our microscopes, at least we can see that advancements are being made, that it’s a great time for gear heads (if a little frustrating at times for those like me who are impatient) and that convergence — though it may be process — is at least happening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
padam Posted July 12, 2020 Share Posted July 12, 2020 58 minutes ago, PaulUsher said: Yeah in the end it’s going to produce decent images in the higher quality mode, and most target users may not see the IQ differences we’re discussing (though they may notice the overheating..) The reliable modes (incl 1080p) will be great for YouTubers especially, they already love the R. It’s just not the upgrade, or camera, I was REALLY hoping for. I think we’re still waiting for a camera of true convergence - that you can use for traditional critical paid work in one moment, then strap round your neck for personal/social media in the next. But it’s getting pretty close. There’s an argument that for some use cases, the reliable modes of both R5/R6 already deliver the dream. Someone will argue that the XT4 does too. Someone else will suggest another camera ticks all their boxes. Bottom line is every man’s bar is set differently. When we step away from our judging tables, and put away our microscopes, at least we can see that advancements are being made, that it’s a great time for gear heads (if a little frustrating at times for those like me who are impatient) and that convergence — though it may be process — is at least happening. After assessing all the specs and looking at R6 sample images... I just don't want to deal with the severe rolling shutter in the 1.07x crop 4K video on the R6. I think When I do upgrade (which probably will not be any time soon, but I do plan to slowly expand my RF lens collection and just keep using the EOS R) it will be the: The EOS R5 All things considered, it just looks like a better, faster sensor than the 1DX III or R6 sensor, which is interesting, considering it is not supposed to be as high-end as the 1DX III. I probably won't even touch the 8K and 4K-HQ modes (maybe the latter in low light if I need the best ISO, but I think it will perform well enough without it) And for the most part I can just use the same "crippled" IPB codecs and UHS-II cards that I will get for the EOS R, I won't need a lot of CFExpress cards. But I will have a FF4k60p camera with low rolling shutter and also a crop sensor 4k60p camera with great quality. Essentially two in one and with 4k120p as a special bonus. And of course I get the higher quality screen EVF and build quality. It will be easier to manual focus for sure, whatever camera I use, I will have vintage glass to go with any of them. 45MP is definitely more than I need for stills, but I need to upgrade for coping with 4k60p anyway, so it is not that big of a drawback. -6.5EV on the R6 vs -6EV on the R5, again, not a biggie. I am looking forward to actual reviews (I want to see rolling shutter measurements for all modes), but it seems quite clear to me what makes the most sense from an upgrade standpoint. Of course this can change depending on one-time deals and stuff, I will try to be ready for that. The opposite approach to this is to have something like an A7SIII Where the 4.8K Prores RAW output makes a ton of sense and produces beautiful video, no overheating, 8K RAW is just too much and also impractical for most people (great for those who need it). But may not be enough as a stills camera, the R5 can tackle both at a very high level and it has a great IBIS system in it, better ergonomics, Canon colors, lens ecosystem, etc. Despite all the 'heat' the R5 receives from various directions (sorry, couldn't resist) it just looks to be very strong as-is for the next few years. Right now, the closest relative to this R5 is probably the Leica SL2. More "premium", but more expensive, bulkier, less features and it also misses out on the AF front or lens ecosystem (and it also suffers from overheating) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jkitchens Posted July 12, 2020 Share Posted July 12, 2020 I wonder if Canon can/will update the 1Dx3 with the ability to AF using full sensor at 60p? If the R6 is using the same sensor and the DIGIC X processor, should it not be possible? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Video Hummus Posted July 12, 2020 Share Posted July 12, 2020 I’m also thinking the R5 makes more sense. I wonder if sony is scrambling to put in recording limits and temperature limits in their firmware that are 15-20 mins above what the R5 has now 😂 for the A7SIII. If the rolling shutter on the R5 is good in the 4K pixel-binned modes then there is enough recording options to work around the RS and temperature recording limits. Youtube videos can use the pixel binned 4K modes on the R5 and no one will notice or care. Use the 8K RAW for short challenging high DR scenes. Use the 4K120p and 4K HQ for short clips that need something extra. Not sure the R6 has the same flexibility even with future firmware updates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silenkiller Posted July 12, 2020 Share Posted July 12, 2020 You guys are confident the crop 4k60p in the r5 will be nicer than the r6? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
padam Posted July 12, 2020 Share Posted July 12, 2020 18 minutes ago, Silenkiller said: You guys are confident the crop 4k60p in the r5 will be nicer than the r6? They should be pretty close in terms of sharpness since they are both using nearly the same 5.1K readout, 1.6x crop area on the R5 versus the FF on the R6 So the R6 should be slightly sharper, since it is not as magnified and also about a stop better in ISO and maybe dynamic range. However, the R5 has a faster sensor so in crop mode the rolling shutter should be better. (how much better? we'll need to see that measured) The reason why I would choose the R5 is because I can still go FF as well as APS-C, I would not use it sorely as an APS-C crop camera for video, I would have both options at all times at my disposal. And of course, the R5 is Cinema 4K aspect ratio or 16:9 UHD aspect ratio, while the R6 is always 16:9 UHD aspect ratio. So, on the other hand, the R6 limitations make it a lot more straightforward to use, no need to choose from a dozen of recording options. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
padam Posted July 12, 2020 Share Posted July 12, 2020 1 hour ago, Jkitchens said: I wonder if Canon can/will update the 1Dx3 with the ability to AF using full sensor at 60p? If the R6 is using the same sensor and the DIGIC X processor, should it not be possible? My guess is as good as anyone's, but I think they won't - or at least they would say something about it. They've only promised to add 23.98p, which they did with firmware 1.1 Because they offer 12-bit 5.5K Cinema RAW recording, as opposed to "just" 5.1K UHD 10-bit 4:2:2 IPB in the R6, I don't think they are going to offer it. Only they know, but they really like to segment all their cameras - as we know only too well... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gt3rs Posted July 12, 2020 Share Posted July 12, 2020 10 minutes ago, padam said: My guess is as good as anyone's, but I think they won't - or at least they would say something about it. They've only promised to add 23.98p, which they did with firmware 1.1 Because they offer 12-bit 5.5K Cinema RAW recording, as opposed to "just" 5.1K UHD 10-bit 4:2:2 IPB in the R6, I don't think they are going to offer it. Only they know, but they really like to segment all their cameras - as we know only too well... would be cool at least in 4k FF 60fps..... but the dream would be for 5.5k raw 60..... even with max time due to overheating like 15-20min. But I doubt..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
padam Posted July 12, 2020 Share Posted July 12, 2020 2 minutes ago, gt3rs said: would be cool at least in 4k FF 60fps..... but the dream would be for 5.5k raw 60..... even with max time due to overheating like 15-20min. But I doubt..... Even the 1.33x crop Cinema 4k60p RAW with AF would be nice - to dream about... The most I expect is that they will have the R5 recording menu instead of the huge array of recording options, but I wouldn't even hope for that. They didn't even bother to add touch functions to the 1DX II... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terozzz Posted July 12, 2020 Share Posted July 12, 2020 R5 and R6 heating test from Korea: Simon Young 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulUsher Posted July 12, 2020 Share Posted July 12, 2020 7 hours ago, padam said: After assessing all the specs and looking at R6 sample images... I just don't want to deal with the severe rolling shutter in the 1.07x crop 4K video on the R6. I think When I do upgrade (which probably will not be any time soon, but I do plan to slowly expand my RF lens collection and just keep using the EOS R) it will be the: The EOS R5 Agreed mate. I think for existing R users, the R5 represents an upgrade in ways the R6 simply doesn’t. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoberus Posted July 12, 2020 Share Posted July 12, 2020 Really excited how the DR will be on the R6 and if they ship clog3 with a firmware update Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gt3rs Posted July 12, 2020 Share Posted July 12, 2020 4 hours ago, padam said: Even the 1.33x crop Cinema 4k60p RAW with AF would be nice - to dream about... The most I expect is that they will have the R5 recording menu instead of the huge array of recording options, but I wouldn't even hope for that. They didn't even bother to add touch functions to the 1DX II... Yes, the recording menu of the 1Dx III is a real mess I need to double check every time what I'm on Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DSPographer Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 Only-Antonis posted a video to YouTube with R6 4k/25p rolling shutter and 4k/50p overheating measurements here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CnRhEUGpcQ It looks to me like 33ms rolling shutter in the 4k/25p footage. In 4k/50p the sensor overheats at just under 29 minutes- not including a short pause at 19 minutes where he re-formats the 32GB card. Rolling shutter test at 7:45 to 8:10 Overheat test at 15:00 to 16:45 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daai Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 4 hours ago, phoberus said: Really excited how the DR will be on the R6 and if they ship clog3 with a firmware update gonno save it for just r5 😉 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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