ade towell Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 5 minutes ago, Logan said: My biggest takeaway from all of this is that there are *always* trade offs. The S1H would be my perfect camera if it had real AF functionality. The XT4 would be my perfect camera if it had unlimited record times and internal 422 10bit. The Canons would be perfect if they had unlimited recording and no overheating. 🤷♂️ The only one you can do anything about is learn how to focus, then you can buy the S1H 😀 Sorry bad joke... jgharding and Trankilstef 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trankilstef Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 12 minutes ago, ade towell said: The only one you can do anything about is learn how to focus, then you can buy the S1H 😀 Sorry bad joke... Not so much a joke... After I left canon for Sony a few years back, and getting tired of waiting for the 10bit 422 at least from an external recorder, i switched back to an EOS R, so I experienced Sony and Canon autofocus. Now I own an S1H and it feels like going back to the good old 5d MkII days where you had no choise of getting the focus manually. I was a bit scared to going back to ONLY manual focus, and frankly it's not that bad. it comes back naturally if you've been used to do it manually in the dslr days, and now I don't complain about it so much. Sometimes on a few occasions on a shoot with clients I may miss the focus a bit, and I need to do another take, but it is way less problematic than I thought. What strikes me with the S1h is the quality of the footage, the ergonomics, the unlimited recording with no overheating (I even never heard the fan start !), all the options etc. The drawbacks are lack of affordable native lens selection (but except for my 24-70 S Pro sometimes, I only shoot video with a 5 lenses Samyang cinema kit), and the continuous AF where it would have been of practical use sometimes). Not to say I'm not waiting for the Sony a7SIII announcement to make a definitive choice (because you have a very good choice of lenses AND a very good autofocus), but for now the Canon EOS R5 leaves me a bit cold. Happy with what my S1H produces. ntblowz 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ade towell Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 Yes I was only half joking really - I love manual focus I feel it puts me much more in the scene. Until only a few years ago it was all part of basic camera skills 101, so it's funny when I hear people won't go near certain cameras now because they can't rely on AF. Am not sure how they managed to work in video production before, reliable AF has only really become a thing in the last 3 or 4 years. There are of course times when it can be handy and yes I miss focus occasionally but then so does the camera and when it does I've seen it go bat shit crazy (this was with a Canon C200) I realise this makes me sound like an old man and sorry Logan wasn't singling you out it just made me chuckle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveV4D Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 36 minutes ago, Logan said: My statement on working professionals was more hyperbole than anything. My point isn’t that Canon made a perfect camera at all, but that it’s laughable how much people are finding *wrong* with it as opposed to all the huge positives. I would kill for a S1H level camera from Canon, but I doubt we will get it. I don't come here to get utter praise on the wonders of a camera. Take the Pocket 6K I plan to buy, its specs tell me what it can do, and the advantages you get from them are there to see from the many happy users. However its reading criticisms from people like Andrew that also make me aware of any potential pitfalls of this camera. When I buy one, and despite knowing the limitations, I shall still so, it will be an informed purchase. No one can say I wasn't warned of the issues. If you wish to see unreserved praise for the great God that is R5, simply start a thread on the positives of the R5. However this thread concerns the over heating issues of the R5 as coming from Andrews blog post. Focussing on it here is therefore what this thread is about. I'm sorry if this hurts the R5 feelings. 😉 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveV4D Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 27 minutes ago, Neumann Films said: (raises hand) I did. I realize it’s not for everyone but I’m extremely happy with what they did. It’s legitimately my dream camera for this moment in time. Do with that what you will, my point is...Canon has given SOME people what they want. Just not everyone, but no one ever does! Fair enough, you clearly want 8K and you have it, massive file sizes and all. I hope to one day look forward to watching your 8K videos on my 5" phone screen. 😄 Video Hummus 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bandido Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 We are going back to the EOS 7D days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidhfe Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 20 hours ago, Andrew Reid said: Sounds like you're the one with wild speculation that it's the sensor and not the processor! All I know is that a smartphone can encode 8K in H.265, and that it is the most computational demanding task in the camera. The sensor readout for 8K can also be done in a smartphone form factor. The EOS R5 has no excuses for not properly managing the heat. I am, of course, speculating as I've got the same specs in front of me that you do. However, some clues it's the sensor vs DSP: - Some modes with identical compression (4K fine vs 4K) seem to have differing heat issues - The Digic X doesn't appear to be a slouch, with a 4x+ improvement in processing power it doesn't have the feeling of cut rate silicon, which canon has ABSOLUTLEY done in the past. Digic's that couldn't handle anything other than MJPEG, for instance. - As you mentioned, there are lots of cameras that do 8K—but anything with this sized sensor has active cooling. - There is a relationship between heat generated and surface area. Additionally, It's much easier to remove the heat from a 45mp 1cm smartphone sensor than a 35mm sensor. - Active cooling tends to be attached to the sensor, not the image processor Maybe I'm super wrong (I'm a designer not an EE) and it's canon being cheap. If I'm on the right track though, canon would have had limited options: - Provide a camera with fewer megapixels. Nonstarter for lots of photographers. - Put active cooling on it. Nonstarter for lots of photographers. - Personally, I'd love to see canon release a 5Dc with active cooling and a larger body to match. They could also license additional codecs that aren't demanded by the stills/hybrid crowd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neumann Films Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 12 minutes ago, SteveV4D said: I hope to one day look forward to watching your 8K videos on my 5" phone screen. 😄 I’m not shooting anything for a phone screen. 😂 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveV4D Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 6 minutes ago, Neumann Films said: I’m not shooting anything for a phone screen. 😂 Neither am I, but.......... 😄 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super8 Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 39 minutes ago, Trankilstef said: Not so much a joke... After I left canon for Sony a few years back, and getting tired of waiting for the 10bit 422 at least from an external recorder, i switched back to an EOS R, so I experienced Sony and Canon autofocus. Now I own an S1H and it feels like going back to the good old 5d MkII days where you had no choise of getting the focus manually. I was a bit scared to going back to ONLY manual focus, and frankly it's not that bad. it comes back naturally if you've been used to do it manually in the dslr days, and now I don't complain about it so much. Sometimes on a few occasions on a shoot with clients I may miss the focus a bit, and I need to do another take, but it is way less problematic than I thought. What strikes me with the S1h is the quality of the footage, the ergonomics, the unlimited recording with no overheating (I even never heard the fan start !), all the options etc. The drawbacks are lack of affordable native lens selection (but except for my 24-70 S Pro sometimes, I only shoot video with a 5 lenses Samyang cinema kit), and the continuous AF where it would have been of practical use sometimes). Not to say I'm not waiting for the Sony a7SIII announcement to make a definitive choice (because you have a very good choice of lenses AND a very good autofocus), but for now the Canon EOS R5 leaves me a bit cold. Happy with what my S1H produces. Phillip Bloom is about as straight forward as you get. AF tracking for video, although no used in cine productions because it doesn't exist, is amazing and can save thousands of dollars a day on any set. Now like I said AF tracking is not available on the Arri or RED or other $20,000+ cine cameras, yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neumann Films Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 11 minutes ago, SteveV4D said: Neither am I, but.......... 😄 But...what? My videos are going to companies like Amazon, Samsung and TCL for display showcases or hardware/software testing. These applications SPECIFICALLY require 8K. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff Totten Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 19 hours ago, Neumann Films said: Say it again. A little louder for everyone in this sub. For a company that has been ridiculed for not innovating (most of all...here on this site), they made the correct call. It's a leap forward and I applaud them for it. It will push everyone to follow suit! To solve this problem they would have had to leave out IBIS or AF. They kept them BOTH in. It's really a remarkable technical achievement. After talking with Panasonic engineers a lot in the past about this stuff...the fact that they were able to cram all of this in is surprising. High technology at the cost of reliability and trustworthiness? I suspect that most of us here would have traded 8k technology and given it back in favor of RELIABILITY. A Tesla is a very high tech car but what good is all that technology if the car breaks down all the time and leaves you stranded? Canon should have used a SIMPLE "low tech" cooling fan. The R5 is going to have a 3-4 year sales life. Now?....the R5 is going to have to live with 3-4 years of hundreds of overheating YouTube video complaints. And rightfully so. Canon created this mess and they will have to live with it..... This was 100% their choice. SteveV4D 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neumann Films Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 Just now, Cliff Totten said: I suspect that most of us here would have traded 8k technology and given it back in favor of RELIABILITY. Probably true...this camera wasn’t made for you then. Also, how can anyone pretend to know how reliable or unreliable it is until you actually use it on a shoot? It might be better than we thought and it might be worse. Speculating is just that...speculation. Time will tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Holmes Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 Well, this is the one thing I was afraid of, and the one deal-breaker for me. I use my EOS-Rs for interviews and live theater. They record literally for hours, 4k 30p, without even getting warm. Looks like my wallet, and spouse, will be happy I won't want to upgrade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anonim Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 It seems that it would be pretty fair if Canon sell R5 with an stopwatch as added tool, for measuring time of heating and cooling and planning activity regarding that restrictive measure. Actually, in that wanted (scrupulous and accurate with little bit self entertaining) behavior it seems strangely compatible with Covid 19 time. All discussion IMO could be summarize - many parts of R5 offer are looking great per se, but usability of sum of them extremely depends of personal decision, personal preferences, tasks, personal character. (And personal valet, of course, which is, as all we know, so often the most important factor of disclosure of personal character.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ted1000 Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 I'm still waiting to hear why the R5 is unusable for wildlife? Ted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveV4D Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 15 minutes ago, Neumann Films said: Probably true...this camera wasn’t made for you then. It wasn't made for anyone in particular. In fact, it was made more for Photographers than Videographers. The fact that some video users benefit from it is of course a plus. The fact that many can't is a negative. Its better to say that the camera isnt usuable for some video shooters rather than made for. Clip limits are a big negative for me. Not for you clearly. But the fact that your shooting needs can be met by the R5 doesn't mean those of us that are not, can't at least discuss it. Don't get me wrong, I would welcome a fullframe camera from Canon with their great AF that would fit my needs. I am still waiting...... Neumann Films 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neumann Films Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 5 minutes ago, SteveV4D said: It wasn't made for anyone in particular. In fact, it was made more for Photographers than Videographers. The fact that some video users benefit from it is of course a plus. The fact that many can't is a negative. Its better to say that the camera isnt usuable for some video shooters rather than made for. Clip limits are a big negative for me. Not for you clearly. But the fact that your shooting needs can be met by the R5 doesn't mean those of us that are not, can't at least discuss it. Don't get me wrong, I would welcome a fullframe camera from Canon with their great AF that would fit my needs. I am still waiting...... Probably true, but shouldn't we be fine with that? I'm happy that they just pushed tech forward so far. All it means is that other companies will now feel the pressure to add more features at a cheaper price point...so the consumer wins. Anytime this has happened it's a good thing. When Tesla pushed the envelope, other car manufacturers followed and now almost all major companies have an EV model. Good for humanity. If not for Tesla pushing the boundaries it would have taken longer and probably been more expensive. There are examples of this in many industries and I always think it's a positive. The fact that THIS specific camera doesn't fit a lot of peoples needs isn't the thing I'm happy about, it helps me specifically and I'm in the minority, but it's still a positive for everyone. It just means everyone will get the tech they are looking for sooner and likely cheaper. I would obviously prefer no clip limits but this is coming from someone who adopted Magic Lantern in the very early days and shot entire projects in 10 second chunks due to buffers. I've had entire projects ruined by RED cameras. I'm just used to having to do little workarounds. So for me, it doesn't seem like this is some big thing that people need to freak out over. If you wanted/needed 8K RAW and some of these other specs, it sucks to have to deal with the clip limit but it certainly shouldn't be a deal breaker. You just workaround it and deal with it (assuming the work allows for that). My overall point remains, from a big picture point of view...I'm glad they pushed the envelope and included the tech vs. leaving it out. It might make this specific camera unusable for some but it's a major win for the industry as a whole. Again, before this point RED owned 8K and they charged $30,000 to even begin shooting. This camera marks the entry level for 8K and that is something that will be a benchmark that is remembered years from now. Many many many shooters will create mind blowing stuff with this camera, I can guarantee that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajay Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 3 minutes ago, ted1000 said: I'm still waiting to hear why the R5 is unusable for wildlife? Ted Well, being a wildlife photographer/videographer there are a few issues in my opinion. I shoot primarily 120p 4k now with a Zcam. I can use the footage in regular time and in slo-mo. I love that kind of flexibility. My interest in the R5 is to shoot 120p 4k. When shooting on the Z Cam I can get close to 90 minutes of footage on a 256GB chip. On the R5, that's 16 minutes of run-time using ALL-I. That's the only option. I often record a lot of footage while waiting for wildlife to do something. I don't have the liberty of going back and pressing the record button to capture something I may have missed. How long can I run the R5 in outdoor warm-weather conditions before it will overheat? (Unanswered at this point.) The processing power to edit these humongous files will require an upgrade to my computer more than likely. There are so many things that I do like about the R5. Having a robust image stabilized camera with that form factor and fully articulating screen, 10 bit, etc. is really appealing. I really want a compact system and not have to carry around a bunch of large batteries, an external EVF and cables dangling, etc. Will this camera be my answer? I was hoping it would be but I'm having a hard time rationalizing an investment in 1TB CF Express cards at $800 a pop and not knowing how long I can record before overheating becomes an issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff Totten Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 44 minutes ago, Mark Holmes said: Well, this is the one thing I was afraid of, and the one deal-breaker for me. I use my EOS-Rs for interviews and live theater. They record literally for hours, 4k 30p, without even getting warm. Looks like my wallet, and spouse, will be happy I won't want to upgrade. Canon does not want us using the R5 for this purpose. They sell camcorders for this. They CLEARLY want to protect their camcorder market with 29 minute limits and fan-less overheating. Yeah....Canon's camcorder division managers and sales reps are breathing a sigh of relief today. So yeah...R5...safe for short, high quality clip recordings. CT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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