Canon EOS R5 overheating vs Panasonic S1H and Sigma Fp designs

[Andrew Reid]

 

New blog post:

https://www.eoshd.com/news/heat-management-what-canon-can-learn-from-the-panasonic-s1h-and-sigma-fp/

[rawshooter]

The likely reason is that Canon design and manufactures its own chips/electronics, and that its chip technology is old and not on the level of contemporary chip manufacturing of 14nm or less.

Bigger structures/more nanometers mean: less power efficiency, more heat production. (That's why smartphones, using the latest and smallest chip technology, are so incredibly powerful at low electricity consumption and low heat dissipation.)

Panasonic, as much bigger electronics manufacturer, has access to more modern chip technology. They likely also manufacture the electronics of the Sigma fp (since they also manufacture the electronics of Leica cameras, and since the fp uses a Panasonic battery).

This is also the reason why Canon's self-manufactured sensor chip are behind in performance to Sony's.

[Video Hummus]

I’m not so sure. I think it’s more about them shaping the market then not being able to come up with a cooling solution after 5+ years of development.

[hk908]

I wonder how much a 1" thick or so aluminum heatsink w/fins attached to the bottom would prolong the camera operation. My NX1 hasn't really had a problem overheating so heat mitigation is a new and interesting engineering problem to me. I've seen people suggest on prior sonys that a battery grip can help act as a heat sink but I'm guessing as a heatsink that a battery grip would be very inefficient both in material and, you know, having hot batteries in it. I've also seen some talk of USB power packs or dummy batteries used to power the camera but as far as I'm aware the R5 can't run while attached to an Anker or something. I doubt, being just a hobbyist/self-appointed marketer for my company, that heat management would really impact me. But in my day job in industrial manufacturing having access to a lot of scrap aluminum and machining tools it'd be a fun challenge. 

I also was wondering if they make external SSDs but not integrated into a monitor like a Atomos. I would love to fab up a little rig with external storage tucked to the side but a 5" screen is way too large and unnecessary for my use. 

[greggreenhaw]

Maybe a dry ice dispenser dummy battery will do the trick 😅

[theSUBVERSIVE]

9 hours ago, rawshooter said:

The likely reason is that Canon design and manufactures its own chips/electronics, and that its chip technology is old and not on the level of contemporary chip manufacturing of 14nm or less.

Bigger structures/more nanometers mean: less power efficiency, more heat production. (That's why smartphones, using the latest and smallest chip technology, are so incredibly powerful at low electricity consumption and low heat dissipation.)

Panasonic, as much bigger electronics manufacturer, has access to more modern chip technology. They likely also manufacture the electronics of the Sigma fp (since they also manufacture the electronics of Leica cameras, and since the fp uses a Panasonic battery).

This is also the reason why Canon's self-manufactured sensor chip are behind in performance to Sony's.

Canon is a big company with plenty of R&D, much more than Panasonic's Lumix + Varicam divisions and Sigma combined, I'm positive they can get their hands on whatever processing node they want and put together a camera that doesn't overheat if they wanted. The same way that Sony could have avoided overheating issues if they didn't want to shrink the camera down so much in the beginning - they knew about it since even the NEX cameras before had that issue.

The positive is that Canon was more transparent about it from the get go, so I'm pretty sure that if Canon wanted, they could have chosen either the Sigma or the Panasonic solution or even both combined, but they chose not to.

When the specs were out, everybody was asking themselves what was the catch. Would it be the crop factor, maybe a paid firmware, maybe there was no catch at all, but then there was.

The rumors about the A7SIII seems to point to a 4K camera, so no 6K or 8K, but possibly 4K120p. I wonder what Panasonic will do for their GH6, they should once for all get their AF shit together.

[Django]

The Sigma FP is a 8-bit only internal recording camera, has no 4K60p, no PDAF and Sigma just confirmed it can’t even record LOG due to « design limitations ». 
 

It’s a very powerful camera in relation to its minuscule size and surely an ingenious passive cooling design, but  thermal issues remain and are surely the cause of such limitations.
 

The S1H, despite an active cooling system and body almost twice the size/weight can only do 4K60p with a S35 crop. No PDAF either on that camera.

Canon chose to unlock superior specs  at the risk of overheating, which I understand is a polarizing decision, however I’m not sure there is a strong case to be made against its thermal balance giving the power it unleashed compared to those two cameras with a passive cooling system.

Sony however, if the spec rumors are true may be on such a breakthrough..

[Andrew Reid]

8 hours ago, theSUBVERSIVE said:

Canon is a big company with plenty of R&D, much more than Panasonic's Lumix + Varicam divisions and Sigma combined, I'm positive they can get their hands on whatever processing node they want and put together a camera that doesn't overheat if they wanted. The same way that Sony could have avoided overheating issues if they didn't want to shrink the camera down so much in the beginning - they knew about it since even the NEX cameras before had that issue.

The positive is that Canon was more transparent about it from the get go, so I'm pretty sure that if Canon wanted, they could have chosen either the Sigma or the Panasonic solution or even both combined, but they chose not to.

When the specs were out, everybody was asking themselves what was the catch. Would it be the crop factor, maybe a paid firmware, maybe there was no catch at all, but then there was.

The rumors about the A7SIII seems to point to a 4K camera, so no 6K or 8K, but possibly 4K120p. I wonder what Panasonic will do for their GH6, they should once for all get their AF shit together.

I completely agree.

Canon thought the 8K and specs would outweigh the drawbacks of overheating problems.

We'll see however if this harms the Canon brand image for reliability, and how many of the target pro customers (EOS R5 in particular) return the camera within a month because they can't get through shoots.

It might end up being a non-issue, or it might end up hurting sales.

By the sounds of McKinnon though he is having a lot of problems.

We'll see.

And yes at least they were transparent about it and made the recording time figures available.

[PannySVHS]

44 minutes ago, Django said:

Sony however, if the spec rumors are true may be on such a breakthrough..

Making beloved Panny look stupid. Yikes! 🙂

Well, Sony has given us beautiful underground hits like F3 and FS700, so I should be more thankful and accept their possible lead for the most awesome hybrid cam. Maybe it makes Panny gives the S1 a few meaty firmware updates. Perfect HD up to 60p would be awesome. GH5 is a HD monster. Back to R6, yes it exists. Thank you Canon, I filmed with your C100II. A very cool cam, best low bitrate 8bit, perfect HD and no overheating. 🙂

[gt3rs]

1 hour ago, Andrew Reid said:

 

It might end up being a non-issue, or it might end up hurting sales.

By the sounds of McKinnon though he is having a lot of problems.

We'll see.

And yes at least they were transparent about it and made the recording time figures available.

There are a couple of key things that we need to see by people really using it and not all these yt useless preview of the preview preview 🙂:

- 4k 120fps and 8k LOG and RAW, can you continuously do 1-5 minutes takes with a 1-5 minutes breaks in-between without overheating or not? If yes then is probably fine for a lot of people especially because this modes produce huge files so I doubt people will record 3h of 8k RAW in a day anyway, but if after 3-4 takes you need to cool down the camera for 15min then is a major usability issue.

- 4k binned quality and RS up to 30fps

- 4k binned can the camera shoot all day (restarting every 30 min as any canon dslr so far)

If the binned quality is good and there is no overheating and in high quality modes you can take as many short takes as you want then is an ok compromise to get these "super modes".

 

For what I saw so far 4k 120fps seems quite good,  of course not like 5.5k 60 from the 1Dx III but a huge increase in quality compared to the 1080 120fps (that is barley usable) of the 1Dx III.
RS seems similarly bad as the 1Dx III for the oversampled modes and 8k. RS in 60 and 120 fps is of course good or very good. Did not find yet a binned 4k 30 fps RS example.

[Blancblue]

1 hour ago, Django said:

The Sigma FP is a 8-bit only internal recording camera, has no 4K60p, no PDAF and Sigma just confirmed it can’t even record LOG due to « design limitations ». 
 

It’s a very powerful camera in relation to its minuscule size and surely an ingenious passive cooling design, but  thermal issues remain and are surely the cause of such limitations.
 

The S1H, despite an active cooling system and body almost twice the size/weight can only do 4K60p with a S35 crop. No PDAF either on that camera.

Canon chose to unlock superior specs  at the risk of overheating, which I understand is a polarizing decision, however I’m not sure there is a strong case to be made against its thermal balance giving the power it unleashed compared to those two cameras with a passive cooling system.

Sony however, if the spec rumors are true may be on such a breakthrough..

+ S1H + Sigma FP don´t have a stabilised sensor. I think thats one of the biggest reasons - IBIS requires the sensor to be able to "float" in the body. This means the sensor cannot be mounted to a heatsink.

[rawshooter]

9 hours ago, theSUBVERSIVE said:

Canon is a big company with plenty of R&D, much more than Panasonic's Lumix + Varicam divisions and Sigma combined, 

This is not my point. My point is that Canon - as opposed to all other camera manufacturers that are not part of bigger electronics manufacturers (like Panasonic/Matsushita and Sony) literally manufactures its own chips, in its own three Japanese chip factories (they're listed on this Wikipedia page), which use completely dated processes and chip technology that is far behind current microchip technology.

This is the reason why Canon's electronics and sensor performance has been behind the rest of the industry (which mostly uses Sony sensors), why they noe have bigger heat problems than the rest of the industry - but also why Canon has been more profitable than other camera manufacturers in the past (because it didn't need to buy its chips from other manufacturers).

[JurijTurnsek]

Can't have a small weather-sealed body and not have it overheat at these insane recording modes. They made a conscious decision and the market provides alternatives. You can't have a breakthrough video resolution and no heat - maybe in 5 years, but not now at the first generation. This camera is a fantastic tool, but it is not an unicorn.

The Canon of yesteryear might have left these feature off the table and released a conservative product, but this thing will probably push the whole market into a higher gear. Take the good and be aware of the limitations, no one is forcing you to buy this.

[gt3rs]

5 minutes ago, rawshooter said:

This is the reason why Canon's electronics and sensor performance has been behind the rest of the industry (which mostly uses Sony sensors), why they noe have bigger heat problems than the rest of the industry - but also why Canon has been more profitable than other camera manufacturers in the past (because it didn't need to buy its chips from other manufacturers).

Or they don't overheat because they don't offer internal >4k RAW or 4k 120fps?

The sensor and cpu of the newly released A9II cannot even do 60fps...... or more than 8 bit.... so not sure what are you comparing with?

FF sensors generates more heat that small sensors like 4/3,  gopro , phones etc..... RAW requires CFexpress with really high bandwidth and they become really hot while running highspeed. If I touch mines while on the CFexpress reader (half sticks out and get air so better than in the camera) while copying big files to the PC they get really hot....

So the combination of running at the limit with the sensor, cpu and storage produces a lot of heat and this not due to inefficient components but really running at the limit.
The Fx9 needs fan as the C500 II needs one and the 500 II can do internal RAW at 6k and Fx9 only max 4k non raw (yes the one using the amazing Sony components). And both were released at the same time.... so I don't see any prove that Sony cpu / sensors are more heat efficient....

Of course Canon could have put fan on the R5, most photographers would have hated it and imo >80% of the sales will go to photographer but I could be wrong.... 

Maybe the A7SIII will show this superiority but right now I don't see it....

[Snowfun]

2 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

And yes at least they were transparent about it and made the recording time figures available.

I’m surprised they didn’t take the next step and at launch state something along the lines of “8k recording limited to 12 minutes to AVOID overheating issues” (and build in the appropriate cut off) rather than allowing the camera to simply stop BECAUSE of overheating.  That would have marketed 8k 12 mins as a positive feature rather than the negative issue it has now become. 
And of course it would be entirely up to the potential buyer if the reliable 8k 12 mins is worth it.
Bizarre marketing.

[SteveV4D]

9 minutes ago, Snowfun said:

I’m surprised they didn’t take the next step and at launch state something along the lines of “8k recording limited to 12 minutes to AVOID overheating issues” (and build in the appropriate cut off) rather than allowing the camera to simply stop BECAUSE of overheating.  That would have marketed 8k 12 mins as a positive feature rather than the negative issue it has now become. 
And of course it would be entirely up to the potential buyer if the reliable 8k 12 mins is worth it.
Bizarre marketing.

Problem with that is that there is a cool down period and a reduction in the next recording.  So 12 mins wouldn't necessary be consistent. 

People are treating this as a clip limit, its not.  Its more random.  The figures quoted assume a certain temperature and with the camera switched on from cold.  If the temperature is higher, if you've been storing it in a warm place, or using it before; these could all reduce the figures down.  Some people saying you can record 20 mins of 8K RAW just because this is the figure Canon gave as an example, isn't really accurate.  It could be much longer on a cold day and a lot shorter on a hot day.

[Video Hummus]

1 hour ago, SteveV4D said:

Canon gave as an example, isn't really accurate.  It could be much longer on a cold day and a lot shorter on a hot day.

So anybody going to Iceland for the holidays no problem!

There is fine print in the manual. You have to look close when reading it.

”Unlimited 8K RAW recording up to 30p*

* when used above or below the Arctic and Antarctic circles respectively.**

**except where there is global warming.”

[jonathangrijalva810]

Just to correct your article, the S1h only has 6k 4:2:0 not 4:2:2 10 bit. I wish lol. As a user of the S1h, I can say that I am glad they put a fan on that thing even if it means the body is a bit larger. I like that it’s heavier as it makes the camera more stable while holding. Mix that with awesome IBIS and it’s a winner. I bought the S1h because it has really good 4k. I don’t understand everyone who wants 8k.  Storage and workflow is going to be a complete nightmare for most. Not to mention the cost of cfast cards. If I were to get either of these I think the R6 is the one to look at. Either way its a great push for these companies and I’m all for competition for better cameras. 

[Lux Shots]

11 hours ago, Blancblue said:

+ S1H + Sigma FP don´t have a stabilised sensor. I think thats one of the biggest reasons - IBIS requires the sensor to be able to "float" in the body. This means the sensor cannot be mounted to a heatsink.

Where did you hear that from? My S1H has a stabilized sensor, and the IBIS is like a virtual tripod!
 

 

[Stab]

I also want to add that the S1 doesn't suffer from overheating issues. And it does not have a fan like the S1H does.

I filmed a ceremony the other day with 2 camera's. It must have been 35 degrees celcius that day. Never overheated and could easily record an hour of footage.

In other words, the camera doesn't even need a fan. It just needs to be better designed and most likely a bit bigger.

But we all know that Canon did this, kind of, on purpose. It is the CRIPPLE HAMMER at play here we all were expecting.