Blackmagic casually announces 12K URSA Mini Pro Camera

[McSaint]

On 7/17/2020 at 4:55 PM, Super8 said:

So NO ONE is going to mention the magenta cast that's all over this footage?   This is not acceptable.

I believe the magenta is a result of the color grade and possibly lack of a color calibrated monitor.

[thebrothersthre3]

I would be upset if Blackmagic stops releasing products in the $1000-$3000 price range, but I don't believe that is their plan.

 

[thebrothersthre3]

22 minutes ago, McSaint said:

I believe the magenta is a result of the color grade and possibly lack of a color calibrated monitor.

The footage is available to download if you wanted to see if your belief is true.

[hijodeibn]

42 minutes ago, McSaint said:

I believe the magenta is a result of the color grade and possibly lack of a color calibrated monitor.

please show us this affirmation, download the footage, do the correct color grade and upload here again, so Super8 will be able to see the magenta issue is easily removable.

[McSaint]

1 hour ago, hijodeibn said:

please show us this affirmation, download the footage, do the correct color grade and upload here again, so Super8 will be able to see the magenta issue is easily removable.

Can't grade it on a PC as of right now. Why so confrontational?

[Savannah Miller]

2 hours ago, McSaint said:

Can't grade it on a PC as of right now. Why so confrontational?

 

3 hours ago, hijodeibn said:

please show us this affirmation, download the footage, do the correct color grade and upload here again, so Super8 will be able to see the magenta issue is easily removable.

I've seen the grades posted on reduser and from my guess it is a combination of IR pollution and something else slightly tinting the hair. The hair is the same color as her tank top strap which is also black. In the shot of the guy you not only see magenta in his hair but on the stand holding up the plant (which I assume is black).  Blackmagic uses the same IR filter in all of their cameras and they have recieved a lot of complaints in the past of seeing IR pollution even when not using ND filters. With the internal filters on the UMP there was definitely IR pollution when  using the built-in ND filters but it wasn't horrendous.

[Savannah Miller]

There is some abnormally strong chromatic aberration in the images too if you zoom in close. I have no idea how much of that is due to blackmagic's same filter thickness of the camera or what is due to the lens.

 

The camera is amazing but there are a few things, no OLPF, not strong enough IR cut, and odd filter thickness which will exist throughout every blackmagic model and that's just part of the look.

[A_Urquhart]

3 hours ago, McSaint said:

Can't grade it on a PC as of right now. Why so confrontational?

He/She is angry that the 'RUMOURS' said that BMD would be releasing a camera with AF and IBIS,  and this cinema camera doesn't have those features. 

Despite this, he/she keeps coming back to a thread about something he/she has zero interest to keep he/she's anger boiling.

Makes a lot of sense right?

To add to the confusion, many users of EOSHD and the owner of the site himself says they have every right to be angry because this is a forum for users of small DSLR like cameras and Solo shooters so AF and IBIS should be mandatory .......but then the forum owner continues to post news articles of cameras that don't appeal to his user base and the circe of anger just continues to go round and round....

I love it, it's hilarious!

 

 

[hijodeibn]

58 minutes ago, A_Urquhart said:

He/She is angry that the 'RUMOURS' said that BMD would be releasing a camera with AF and IBIS,  and this cinema camera doesn't have those features. 

Despite this, he/she keeps coming back to a thread about something he/she has zero interest to keep he/she's anger boiling.

Makes a lot of sense right?

To add to the confusion, many users of EOSHD and the owner of the site himself says they have every right to be angry because this is a forum for users of small DSLR like cameras and Solo shooters so AF and IBIS should be mandatory .......but then the forum owner continues to post news articles of cameras that don't appeal to his user base and the circe of anger just continues to go round and round....

I love it, it's hilarious!

my gosh...who threw peanuts to the monkeys?

[hijodeibn]

1 hour ago, A_Urquhart said:

He/She is angry that the 'RUMOURS' said that BMD would be releasing a camera with AF and IBIS,  and this cinema camera doesn't have those features. 

Despite this, he/she keeps coming back to a thread about something he/she has zero interest to keep he/she's anger boiling.

Makes a lot of sense right?

To add to the confusion, many users of EOSHD and the owner of the site himself says they have every right to be angry because this is a forum for users of small DSLR like cameras and Solo shooters so AF and IBIS should be mandatory .......but then the forum owner continues to post news articles of cameras that don't appeal to his user base and the circe of anger just continues to go round and round....

I love it, it's hilarious!

By the way, if you have to say something to the owner of the forum, please tell him to his face, don't be a little girl hiding behind the door, and include @Andrew Reid in the sentence.

[Dioniso]

Is not a YouTuber camera

Is not a documentary camera

Is not a "one man" crew camera

Is not an autofocus camera

Is a CINEMA camera what's else?

 

 

[Super8]

8 hours ago, hijodeibn said:

please show us this affirmation, download the footage, do the correct color grade and upload here again, so Super8 will be able to see the magenta issue is easily removable.

I know magenta cast or IR contamination can be removed. 

IR contamination shouldn't be in that 12K footage.   I'm sure @John Brawley should have seen it.  He wrote up that blog about it.  I'm sure BM has a few great colorist that should have caught it. Heck, the built in ND's are supposed to eliminate IR contamination. 

This is the reason ARRI, Canon and RED have clean color.   No company is perfect but these 3 companies seem to understand color science and working with the right sensor foundation. 

Black Magic seems to get the most out of sensors for lowest cost compared to any other camera company.   Instead of cutting corners they should just make sensors and cameras that get the best results at any cost. 

I'm begging to wonder if they have the engineers to pull of great color science. 

Take a look at the picture from BM website, someone thought that IR contamination was acceptable to showcase.

[Super8]

This is a quick photoshop fix on how that image should have looked without IR contamination.  The question is what else is being puled out when magenta is puled down?

 

 

 

[Laurier]

3 hours ago, Super8 said:

I know magenta cast or IR contamination can be removed. 

IR contamination shouldn't be in that 12K footage.   I'm sure @John Brawley should have seen it.  He wrote up that blog about it.  I'm sure BM has a few great colorist that should have caught it. Heck, the built in ND's are supposed to eliminate IR contamination. 

This is the reason ARRI, Canon and RED have clean color.   No company is perfect but these 3 companies seem to understand color science and working with the right sensor foundation. 

Black Magic seems to get the most out of sensors for lowest cost compared to any other camera company.   Instead of cutting corners they should just make sensors and cameras that get the best results at any cost. 

I'm begging to wonder if they have the engineers to pull of great color science. 

Take a look at the picture from BM website, someone thought that IR contamination was acceptable to showcase.

Yet you still hear people complain about the Alexa green cast, the Red yellow wash and the pinkish skin from canon colours.

Put a Zeiss lens you get a blue cast, put a canon or a Cooke you get yellow, but a sigma you loose some red/yellow ect...

Shoot on film, you get several colour cast depending which lab is going to develop .

If the image is striking , no one is complaining about the sky being the wrong shade of blue.

Once you cut through the marketing BS and learn how to use a grading suite, none of that matter.

[PannySVHS]

@Laurier Thx for commenting and for contributing an interesting perspecitve on colour palettes of cams. Still, IR pollution was very hard if impossible to tame from my experience  with BMCC 2.5K footage. I would recommand always doing some IR and other testing beforehand filming, especially paid work. The latter has given me some headaches fighting IR pollutin in post due ingnoring the issue.

[Super8]

4 hours ago, PannySVHS said:

@Laurier Thx for commenting and for contributing an interesting perspecitve on colour palettes of cams. Still, IR pollution was very hard if impossible to tame from my experience  with BMCC 2.5K footage. I would recommand always doing some IR and other testing beforehand filming, especially paid work. The latter has given me some headaches fighting IR pollutin in post due ingnoring the issue.

This isn't a case about working with IR pollution.   The BM12K is said to have built in ND's that are perfectly balanced to eliminate IR contamination.   Are you saying Black Magic ignored the IR issue or @John Brawley ignored the IR issue?

[androidlad]

BMD patent document on the URSA 12K sensor design:

https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/88/08/39/428dbbc9e5dfca/US20190306472A1.pdf

 

Actual CFA pattern:

 

In the document, it specifically discusses colour-aware pixel-binning to increase sensitivity and double framerate, at the expense of lower resolutions. So the "oversampling" mentioned in marketing is without doubt BS, at least for full FOV framerates higher than 60fps.

Because if it oversamples from full 12K, then the oversampled modes cannot exceed 60fps which is the full readout max fps.

Maybe there's a feature similar to R5's "4K HQ" mode.

[Savannah Miller]

Something interesting is on linkedin I see quite a few "computer vision" engineers working for blackmagic design in colorado city, colorado. Not sure what they do but it could be related to autofocus. Unless blackmagic has bigger goals

[Savannah Miller]

12 hours ago, Super8 said:

I know magenta cast or IR contamination can be removed. 

IR contamination shouldn't be in that 12K footage.   I'm sure @John Brawley should have seen it.  He wrote up that blog about it.  I'm sure BM has a few great colorist that should have caught it. Heck, the built in ND's are supposed to eliminate IR contamination. 

This is the reason ARRI, Canon and RED have clean color.   No company is perfect but these 3 companies seem to understand color science and working with the right sensor foundation. 

Black Magic seems to get the most out of sensors for lowest cost compared to any other camera company.   Instead of cutting corners they should just make sensors and cameras that get the best results at any cost. 

I'm begging to wonder if they have the engineers to pull of great color science. 

Take a look at the picture from BM website, someone thought that IR contamination was acceptable to showcase.

Blackmagic's IR pollution is not a color science issue and it's not a complicated issue at all. The IR filter they use over the sensor (it is the same one in all models) does not do a strong IR cutoff so that you get more "pure" color. As you add ND filter and use full spectrum IRND ones, in theory you shouldn't get IR pollution.

The reason you get some is IRND are not perfect and the blackmagic IR cut filter is a touch too weak. Also in most scenarios without ND the IR pollution is fine but under strong hot lighting like tungsten, IR can show up even without ND.  Blackmagic is very stubborn on this issue and it's something you have to accept. They won't change.

One other issue is that the speedbooster manufacturers and others have claimed that the glass that blackmagic uses for their IR cut is too thin and creates focusing and Chromatic aberration problems as well. That's why ever blackmagic camera with a speedbooster has always had to have a custom designed one.

A lot of BM users rock IR cut for every shot or even use internal IR cut replacements like the rawlite OLPF.

[TheRenaissanceMan]

12 hours ago, Super8 said:

I know magenta cast or IR contamination can be removed. 

IR contamination shouldn't be in that 12K footage.   I'm sure @John Brawley should have seen it.  He wrote up that blog about it.  I'm sure BM has a few great colorist that should have caught it. Heck, the built in ND's are supposed to eliminate IR contamination. 

This is the reason ARRI, Canon and RED have clean color.   No company is perfect but these 3 companies seem to understand color science and working with the right sensor foundation. 

Black Magic seems to get the most out of sensors for lowest cost compared to any other camera company.   Instead of cutting corners they should just make sensors and cameras that get the best results at any cost. 

I'm begging to wonder if they have the engineers to pull of great color science. 

Take a look at the picture from BM website, someone thought that IR contamination was acceptable to showcase.

It's RAW. You don't lose any information pulling color casts out of shadows. That's the entire point of the format.

Alexa skews green out of the box. Canon has issues with blue-ish grass, inaccurate reds, and blue fringing around bright highlights (depending which matrix you use). RED has had heavily documented color issues since they've been around, including massive IR problems with all their pre-Dragon sensors.

"Perfect color out of the box" is a myth perpetuated by pretentious gearheads; every camera (and many a lens) has quirks that must be managed. Try using the heaviest internal ND settings on a C200 and not seeing IR pollution!

I understand that you were unable to screw an IR filter on some BM cameras in the past, which bit you in post. That's unfortunate; however, the issue is easily managed with skilled workers who do their homework.