Blackmagic casually announces 12K URSA Mini Pro Camera

[Nikkor]

44 minutes ago, maxmizer said:

you're wrong, all the cinema lenses on the planet until a few years ago are S35

And this contradicts my asumption in any way?

Maybe you are one of those guys proudly shooting 48megapixels photos with his cellphone.

[philldaagony]

You're making those assumptions based on traditional bayer-pattern sensor design. BMD's new sensor is a 6x6 array with a 2.2 micron pixel pitch (Alexa's pixel pitch is 8 microns for reference). This means an equal number of RGB pixels (similar to old 3X CCD designs, but on a single chip). We don't know enough about the impact this new design will have on performance other than what BMD has shown, and told us, but so far the implications are pretty revolutionary. The ability to have multiple native resolutions from a single sensor with 12k, 8k, and 4k not requiring any in-camera binning is insane. This means minimal to no aliasing, no moire, and incredibly efficient in-camera processing.

Ultimately the 12K resolution wasn't the goal with this sensor, it was the by-product of the 6x6 array, and non-bayer design. It doesn't appear BMD set out to design a 12K sensor, they set out to create a new way to interpret light at the sensor level without a bayer pattern (hence their 3-chip CCD example in the video). BMD is finally playing with a "full deck" if you will. They have a custom sensor, with a custom codec BRAW, and their own suite of editing software, all vertically integrated. As long as they keep their innovative edge I'm excited to see how this new sensor technology evolves and what other limitations of traditional bayer-patterns it can overcome. 

You know you have a revolutionary product when the current models to predict dynamic range and other areas of performance don't apply, hence their "estimated" dynamic range claim...there isn't a third-party model that can independently verify that measure at this time. 

[Video Hummus]

Wasn’t Panasonic working on an 8K camera that you could use to to punch out multiple UHD angles?

Here comes BM with a 12K that can punch out multiple 4K angles with one camera in the studio.

I can seem them implementing something in DaVinci Resolve where you can track multiple subjects in a single 12K frame with smooth panning and closeups and edit in multi view like it was 4 different cameras.

Take a cooking show for example.

Only need one camera for a wide shot. Punch into waist level shot of talent, face closeup, working with food closeup.

Just one camera and one operator and an assistant.

[Marcio Kabke Pinheiro]

14 hours ago, Leica50mm said:

Any of you geeks seen this? 

 

It was shot from our own @John Brawley, if people come back to treat him well here he could give some useful insights.

Maybe even for the troll of the other thread which says that a camera without IBIS or PDAF is not useful...

[Danyyyel]

6 minutes ago, gingercat said:

Tried 8 nodes with colour wheels, curves and power windows - still plays back perfectly!

WOW I would like to see that, I have a Rizen 7 3800 8 core 16 thread processor with a Radeon V (the second fastest GPU after Nvidia 2080TI) and .265 fuji XT3 with around 4 to six node on a 1080 timeline shutters. Did you do it typical style with many tracks etc like normal editing.

[kye]

1 minute ago, gingercat said:

BM have done an incredible job of optimising BRAW to be super efficient in Resolve.

That's one of the advantages of one company controlling the whole pipeline, they can make optimisations wherever they like instead of being trapped by standards that essentially separate different sections of the image pipeline.

Of course the downside is that it's moving closer to an ecosystem battle where you buy into a brand and get all their stuff and then they can force you to work in a particular way and swapping to another ecosystem is a much larger challenge because you get invested.

[Danyyyel]

12 hours ago, Neumann Films said:

This is what RED should have been doing all along and I guess they started to with 4K ProRes proxies, either way...for me this announcement marks major gap in the armor for RED. Probably not "the end" as they have been silent for a while and probably have something big in the pipeline. The problem is that RED has been chasing the resolution dragon (thank you) almost exclusively. They haven't given us more FPS and they have actually taken functionality away while getting more expensive! The features of this camera are almost...silly. RED would charge $50,000 for a similar camera but an extra $10,000 would be needed for accessories. 

So yeah...this is a major splash on the high end. Enough to make a lot of RED guys switch? Who knows. Will it test their loyalty? Abso-freaking-lutely. 

That's a joke, what pro's will burden themselves on 12k.

[Neumann Films]

3 minutes ago, Danyyyel said:

That's a joke, what pro's will burden themselves on 12k.

I’ve already talked to a few that are thinking of switching. Like I said, it’s enough to make them consider it. Blackmagic hasn’t really had an offering on the higher end until now, that’s why it’s relevant.

[Emanuel]

1 hour ago, Nikkor said:

12K on Super35 is just stupid, sorry. Maybe it opens up computational possibilities, but just from a resolultion/sensor size point it's stupid.

12K on a Medium Format sensor is interesting, on s35 it's just marketing and datawaste....

All you say has a good point in the back of it but two variables can help to change a bit:

modern sensors' higher sensitivity and fast small sensor coverage glass as lighter as more handy we can get ; )

On the other hand:

We finally have 100% RGB Color coverage (now) !

 

[Video Hummus]

6 minutes ago, Danyyyel said:

That's a joke, what pro's will burden themselves on 12k.

You act like they have to shoot in 12K. 

[Danyyyel]

14 hours ago, Inazuma said:

Said people before 1080 and then before 4k and then 8k and now 12k. 

That was before, everything has it's threshold, the 2.8k Alexa is still the No1 production camera, we are talking theatrical release. I mean the human being can resolve a certain amount and no one wants to sit 2 meters from a Cinema screen to look for pixel. the larger the screen, the further people will sit.

 

[JordanWright]

I think a lot of people have missed the point of this camera. It isn't just a 12K S35 camera, its also a 8K/6K/4K S35 and a 6K/4K s16 camera. It's been designed to shoot in all those formats without downsides. If you don't want 12K, don't shoot it, but it is there if you do want it. 

[Danyyyel]

4 minutes ago, Video Hummus said:

You act like they have to shoot in 12K. 

I will wait for actual reviews, I think I have seen enough horror stories on reliability of the BM cameras. Sincerely I was going to buy a BMD just before Nikon announced the Z6. Its now in these thread that I saw all those stories. Because you know what, from every camera manufacturers I have seen all types of extraordinary claim. Even Nikon 4k Raw was a mystery to me from its 6 k sensor, until people found out it was line skipping and producing some moire and aliasing. Nothing that bad, more so for a 1700 usd camera, but for a 10K pro video camera, I would like to see it. We are talking 6 to 10x more processing power in the same body. Secondly I will have to believe that an APSC sensor with like 80 megapixel is going to any good, because it would be revolutionary, enough to destroy Sony Sensor business number one position.

[Neumann Films]

11 minutes ago, Danyyyel said:

That was before, everything has it's threshold, the 2.8k Alexa is still the No1 production camera, we are talking theatrical release. I mean the human being can resolve a certain amount and no one wants to sit 2 meters from a Cinema screen to look for pixel. the larger the screen, the further people will sit.

 

Theatrical releases don’t make up nearly the percentage of overall productions that it used to. Streaming platforms have quality thresholds that must be met and most productions move there just in case. 

[Video Hummus]

I seriously doubt anybody buying a 12K camera is buying it because they can now show audiences a 12K feature film. 12K opens up other possibilities.

I’m getting pretty sick and tired of the pervasive Luddite mentality being displayed on this forum.

There is always going to be compromises with gear. It will either work for you or it doesn’t. You give feedback. You move on. 

[Danyyyel]

8 minutes ago, JordanWright said:

I think a lot of people have missed the point of this camera. It isn't just a 12K S35 camera, its also a 8K/6K/4K S35 and a 6K/4K s16 camera. It's been designed to shoot in all those formats without downsides. If you don't want 12K, don't shoot it, but it is there if you do want it. 

In raw?  how do you shoot lower resolution raw format. I saw same thing with Nikon Z6 raw output from a 6k sensor to a 4k one. They had to line skip and it introduced moire and aliasing. This was from 6 to 4k, now imagine from 12k to 4k?

[JordanWright]

1 minute ago, Danyyyel said:

In raw?  how do you shoot lower resolution raw format. I saw same thing with Nikon Z6 raw output from a 6k sensor to a 4k one. They had to like skip and it introduced moire and aliasing. This was from 6 to 4k, now imagine from 12k to 4k?

It's not a bayer sensor, i'm no expert but the sensor was designed to downsample without those issues. I'd refer you to some of the guys in the BM forum that could explain it better. 

[SteveV4D]

3 minutes ago, Video Hummus said:

 

I’m getting pretty sick and tired of the pervasive Luddite mentality being displayed on this forum.

Luddite... 🙄 I've been shooting Weddings in 4K since 2014, whilst the BBC still only have SD and HD channels.   When we get 4K and even 8K channels, trust me, I'll be looking at 8K and 12K cameras.  

If others do need 12K and 8K, then this camera is for them now.  I'm gonna make a jump to 6K, which is still higher resolution than anything I see on 📺 

[Video Hummus]

4 minutes ago, Danyyyel said:

In raw?  how do you shoot lower resolution raw format. I saw same thing with Nikon Z6 raw output from a 6k sensor to a 4k one. They had to line skip and it introduced moire and aliasing. This was from 6 to 4k, now imagine from 12k to 4k?

Have you even watched the BM video? They are doing in sensor scaling of a 3x3 bayer array. That gives you 4:4:4 4K output from the sensor. The image is as nice or nicer than anything you can shoot with now.

[Danyyyel]

4 minutes ago, Neumann Films said:

Theatrical releases don’t make up nearly the percentage of overall productions that it used to. Streaming platforms have quality thresholds that must be met and most productions move there just in case. 

On all non theatrical release I have been on it was all about Alexa's. They will just upscale it. Do you think netflix will refuse a very good story with good actors etc because it was shot in 2.8 k and now every camera shoots in 4k. 12k is another ball mark, even 8k is a waste, because as I said before, bigger the screen, the further people will watch it, unless they want to watch a film like watching a tennis match.