12K. I want an engineer's thoughts...

[Martin83]

21 hours ago, ade towell said:

 

John Brawley uses BM cameras with Alexa all the time on real sets on big productions. Check out this recent thread for example on dvxuser, the guy is a fountain of knowledge

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?367345-John-Brawley-s-quot-The-Great-quot-on-Hulu&highlight=brawley

Thanks for that link. There's so much good, free and useful stuff to take in. Really good of John Brawley to share this.

 

[sanveer]

On 7/18/2020 at 5:32 AM, Super8 said:

Sorry about this post guys.   I was a little harsh and came off as an asshole.

I don't like the magenta cast on @John Brawley 12K footage. 

His technical break down about the sensor was awesome and @John Brawley does some incredible work.

All cameras have some colour cast and not all colours can be perfectly represented by any of them. Unlike on 8-bit DSLR footage, on higher bit-depth cameras  you can easily correct this with a colour checker, with almost no effect on the final footage (coming apart).

Anyone who probably is unhappy with this footage hasn't seen Alexa footage. It is quite green.  Anything wider then the rec709 standard (all log) spills into wider colours, maybe for the purpose of maintaining the wider dynamic range, that effect colours before it is corrected and turned into a narrower colour bandwidth. Some log profiles have sepia some have green casts. The Blackmagic lut didn't cater specifically for the generation 5. That doesn't mean it's bad. I am not sure any lut by itself, will be able to colour correct log 100% without tweaking the colours wheels or white balancing a little further. 

[Alt Shoo]

In regards to BM’s new tech, and this not being a Bayer sensor, the numbers aren’t the same thing anymore. I believe we are in the presence of a major disruption to come. It’s obvious this is going to trickle down into BM’s new devices and will most likely force major players in the game to reassess the price of admission for quality cinematic images. 
Sorta reminds me of how one can create Grammy winning music on their laptop/tablet/phone. 

[Super8]

5 hours ago, sanveer said:

All cameras have some colour cast and not all colours can be perfectly represented by any of them. Unlike on 8-bit DSLR footage, on higher bit-depth cameras  you can easily correct this with a colour checker, with almost no effect on the final footage (coming apart).

Anyone who probably is unhappy with this footage hasn't seen Alexa footage. It is quite green.  Anything wider then the rec709 standard (all log) spills into wider colours, maybe for the purpose of maintaining the wider dynamic range, that effect colours before it is corrected and turned into a narrower colour bandwidth. Some log profiles have sepia some have green casts. The Blackmagic lut didn't cater specifically for the generation 5. That doesn't mean it's bad. I am not sure any lut by itself, will be able to colour correct log 100% without tweaking the colours wheels or white balancing a little further. 

You put a lot in your comments to unpack based on an official BM paid video release. 

@John Brawley is the most seasoned and decorated DP that BM has in it's stable.

 

Quote

Anyone who probably is unhappy with this footage hasn't seen Alexa footage. It is quite green.

Never said I was unhappy.  Magenta cast is something BM has an issue with.   BM even addresses this with built in ND filters that they say solves this issue. 

Alexa footage is also not quite green.

Quote

Unlike on 8-bit DSLR footage, on higher bit-depth cameras  you can easily correct this with a colour checker, with almost no effect on the final footage (coming apart).

This is an official release video and you can download this footage from BM website.   Why didn't they remove the magenta cast? 

It also depends on where the magenta cast is and how bad it is.

What should worry people is this was the built in ND's that were suppose to correct this issue and magenta cast gets worse in direct sunlight.  All this footage was controlled lighting and not in direct sunlight.

Quote

The Blackmagic lut didn't cater specifically for the generation 5. That doesn't mean it's bad. I am not sure any lut by itself, will be able to colour correct log 100% without tweaking the colours wheels or white balancing a little further. 

Really?  BM makes Davinci Resolve so how messed up is it that they're over colorist wouldn't see the magenta cast and correct it? 

 

What's with all the defending of Black Magic and their cameras?  Canon got ripped a new one for it's overheating issues.  Black Magic deserves the same inspection and feedback.  This is why Black Magic quality control sucks and this is why they release cameras with known issues.  "The P6K is only $2,000 what do you expect?"  "It's 12K for $10,000, what do you expect?"

 

I expect a great camera that lives up to what @John Brawley is pitching.  If you're going to finally talk about color, finally talk about what the new 12K sensor can do and that they spent million and millions of dollars developing and at the same time say the 12k camera is ready for the biggest Hollywood productions then back it up with footage that proves it.

 

[hijodeibn]

4 minutes ago, Super8 said:

What's with all the defending of Black Magic and their cameras?  Canon got ripped a new one for it's overheating issues.  Black Magic deserves the same inspection and feedback.  This is why Black Magic quality control sucks and this is why they release cameras with known issues.  "The P6K is only $2,000 what do you expect?"  "It's 12K for $10,000, what do you expect?"

 

I expect a great camera that lives up to what @John Brawley is pitching.  If you're going to finally talk about color, finally talk about what the new 12K sensor can do and that they spent million and millions of dollars developing and at the same time say the 12k camera is ready for the biggest Hollywood productions then back it up with footage that proves it.

 

I understand your frustration Super8, but really, who in this forum can afford this camera?, I don't, and that's the answer from 99 % of the people here, this camera is not oriented to us, it is oriented for productions companies with at least a small crew to operate it. And I didn't notice the magenta issue until you said it, good catch!!!, people is acting like fans, they see 12K and now we have the perfect camera, everything is fantastic and we can forget about all the other issues. They are not going to buy this new BM camera, only play with the footage released, but they are ready to cut your throat if you say that this camera is a waste of time, which in my opinion is for most of us. The only positive here is that in the next years BM could release a new pocket with this new sensor, which for that time will be fixed for the magenta cast, hopefully!.

[Super8]

20 minutes ago, hijodeibn said:

I understand your frustration Super8, but really, who in this forum can afford this camera?, I don't, and that's the answer from 99 % of the people here, this camera is not oriented to us, it is oriented for productions companies with at least a small crew to operate it. And I didn't notice the magenta issue until you said it, good catch!!!, people is acting like fans, they see 12K and now we have the perfect camera, everything is fantastic and we can forget about all the other issues. They are not going to buy this new BM camera, only play with the footage released, but they are ready to cut your throat if you say that this camera is a waste of time, which in my opinion is for most of us. The only positive here is that in the next years BM could release a new pocket with this new sensor, which for that time will be fixed for the magenta cast, hopefully!.

I might end up getting the P6K before it's all said and done.  I don't know.

The technical issues of Gen3,4,5 color worries me.  Maybe @John Brawley can tell me how bad P6K color is in certain areas and how to avoid color issues. 

With BM I'm not looking for Sony color or Nikon color or even Canon color.   I want cine color because that's what's advertised. 

If not BM my next camera will be above $10K if the lower priced cine cameras are filled with issues and if they all play games with the cripple hammer.  I have a feeling you can't get a good cine sensor under $10K.

[hijodeibn]

6 minutes ago, Super8 said:

I might end up getting the P6K before it's all said and done.  I don't know.

The technical issues of Gen3,4,5 color worries me.  Maybe @John Brawley can tell me how bad P6K color is in certain areas and how to avoid color issues. 

With BM I'm not looking for Sony color or Nikon color or even Canon color.   I want cine color because that's what's advertised. 

If not BM my next camera will be above $10K if the lower priced cine cameras are filled with issues and if they all play games with the cripple hammer.  I have a feeling you can't get a good cine sensor under $10K.

wait for the Komodo, probably that could be the camera you have been waiting for, most probably it will keep RED cine color, hope so, and the price will be around $6K.

[thebrothersthre3]

1 hour ago, hijodeibn said:

I understand your frustration Super8, but really, who in this forum can afford this camera?, I don't, and that's the answer from 99 % of the people here, this camera is not oriented to us, it is oriented for productions companies with at least a small crew to operate it. And I didn't notice the magenta issue until you said it, good catch!!!, people is acting like fans, they see 12K and now we have the perfect camera, everything is fantastic and we can forget about all the other issues. They are not going to buy this new BM camera, only play with the footage released, but they are ready to cut your throat if you say that this camera is a waste of time, which in my opinion is for most of us. The only positive here is that in the next years BM could release a new pocket with this new sensor, which for that time will be fixed for the magenta cast, hopefully!.

There are a lot of people on this forum that work for production companies that use 10k plus cameras or rent 10k plus cameras for projects.... If you are not interested or excited about this release not sure why you'd bother commenting. Why do you want to police all of us on what we should or should not be interested in?

[hijodeibn]

22 minutes ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

There are a lot of people on this forum that work for production companies that use 10k plus cameras or rent 10k plus cameras for projects.... If you are not interested or excited about this release not sure why you'd bother commenting. Why do you want to police all of us on what we should or should not be interested in?

please, that lot of people you are talking about is only 1%.

[newfoundmass]

3 minutes ago, hijodeibn said:

please, that lot of people you are talking about is only 1%.

Proof? And why do you care if others want to talk about it? 

[thebrothersthre3]

3 minutes ago, hijodeibn said:

please, that lot of people you are talking about is only 1%.

and how do you know this??? I'll be using an FX9 on an upcoming production which is a 10k camera. I am sure there are a lot of other people on this forum that do a lot more video work than me. 10k isn't even very expensive for a production camera.

Still unsure why you are upset that other people are excited about a camera announcement??

[hijodeibn]

3 minutes ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

and how do you know this??? I'll be using an FX9 on an upcoming production which is a 10k camera. I am sure there are a lot of other people on this forum that do a lot more video work than me. 10k isn't even very expensive for a production camera.

Still unsure why you are upset that other people are excited about a camera announcement??

why upset?, I am not upset at all, people can get exited for whatever they want, I just said this camera is a waste of time and people get upset with me, and I still keep my affirmation, almost nobody here is going to buy this camera, and yes, most people here do not have the money to buy a $10K camera, just a few, and what will happen is that some guys will have the opportunity in the future to be able to access this camera for a production, like you now having the opportunity to use a FX9, but you didn't tell if you own that camera, is it your camera?

[sanveer]

2 hours ago, Super8 said:

Really?  BM makes Davinci Resolve so how messed up is it that they're over colorist wouldn't see the magenta cast and correct it? 

 

What's with all the defending of Black Magic and their cameras?  Canon got ripped a new one for it's overheating issues.  Black Magic deserves the same inspection and feedback.  This is why Black Magic quality control sucks and this is why they release cameras with known issues.  "The P6K is only $2,000 what do you expect?"  "It's 12K for $10,000, what do you expect?"

 

I expect a great camera that lives up to what @John Brawley is pitching.  If you're going to finally talk about color, finally talk about what the new 12K sensor can do and that they spent million and millions of dollars developing and at the same time say the 12k camera is ready for the biggest Hollywood productions then back it up with footage that proves it.

Not sure why you've posted 2-3 different font sizes. Maybe some replies are more important than others. 

The problem is with Davinci Resolve converting the log profile to the full color corrected one. The suite need to be fixed with regard to identifying the new color science more accurately. 

[hijodeibn]

6 minutes ago, sanveer said:

The problem is with Davinci Resolve converting the log profile to the full color corrected one. The suite need to be fixed with regard to identifying the new color science more accurately. 

make sense but it is strange Resolved has been optimized to run 12K and not for the conversion of the log profile. I guess we will have to wait a little to see it.

[thebrothersthre3]

20 minutes ago, hijodeibn said:

why upset?, I am not upset at all, people can get exited for whatever they want, I just said this camera is a waste of time and people get upset with me, and I still keep my affirmation, almost nobody here is going to buy this camera, and yes, most people here do not have the money to buy a $10K camera, just a few, and what will happen is that some guys will have the opportunity in the future to be able to access this camera for a production, like you now having the opportunity to use a FX9, but you didn't tell if you own that camera, is it your camera?

So renting is useless? Camera rental is very common in the industry. Waste of who's time exactly? Its simply camera news and many are interested and excited about the new tech.

[hijodeibn]

1 minute ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

So renting is useless? Camera rental is very common in the industry. Waste of who's time exactly? Its simply camera news and many are interested and excited about the new tech.

you see, my original affirmation was true, almost nobody here is going to buy this camera, you also didn't have a $10K camera, you just get one rented for a specific project, thank you for confirming my statement!!!

[newfoundmass]

Cool. 

[A_Urquhart]

3 hours ago, hijodeibn said:

you see, my original affirmation was true, almost nobody here is going to buy this camera, you also didn't have a $10K camera, you just get one rented for a specific project, thank you for confirming my statement!!!

I know plenty of DP's and camera operators that own the UMP, FX9, F5, F55 etc and they all shoot solo every now and again. I have shot plenty of times with the G2 (despite not owning it) and it's is such an easy camera to work with as a solo shooter. 

There are also plenty of DP's that do not own expensive cameras because each job is different so investing in one camera doesn't make a lot of sense for them. That doesn't mean a camera is not relevant or popular. 

jahfdkjblabla, why are you now all over THREE threads about the UMP12K despite having zero interest in it? It obviously upsets you greatly.

[hijodeibn]

48 minutes ago, A_Urquhart said:

I know plenty of DP's and camera operators that own the UMP, FX9, F5, F55 etc and they all shoot solo every now and again. I have shot plenty of times with the G2 (despite not owning it) and it's is such an easy camera to work with as a solo shooter. 

There are also plenty of DP's that do not own expensive cameras because each job is different so investing in one camera doesn't make a lot of sense for them. That doesn't mean a camera is not relevant or popular. 

jahfdkjblabla, why are you now all over THREE threads about the UMP12K despite having zero interest in it? It obviously upsets you greatly.

I know you have a strange fixation on me, you are replying me in every topic I say something, really man, take your pill and move on, I don't care less what you have to say, be happy with your life!!!

[abehalpert]

On 7/18/2020 at 4:53 AM, ade towell said:

Your ignorance is overwhelming. And I thought you were a real DP the way you big yourself up in that hot air way of yours

John Brawley uses BM cameras with Alexa all the time on real sets on big productions. Check out this recent thread for example on dvxuser, the guy is a fountain of knowledge

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?367345-John-Brawley-s-quot-The-Great-quot-on-Hulu&highlight=brawley

If you have questions you'd like to ask him on that thread about the Great, I'm sure he'd be glad to answer.

It seems to me that he mixes the UMP with the Alexa because the form factor is great for loose handheld shooting (lightweight enough, handgrip and monitor rigged on board). So, he uses the UMP when he wants to improv handheld. The image quality is on par with Alexa and he could probably use a Mini or a RED, but the UMP comes rigged to shoot that way. Plus, he has a relationship with the company and probably got them to design it to his liking.

And lastly, the price is low enough that he owns 4. So he can bring them for extra angles and back-ups and I don't think it breaks his bank.

The 12K - maybe he'll only buy 1 or 2. But it seems like he really likes the color fidelity and the clarity of the image, and it has the same body and operability.