Blackmagic Design > RED

[Neumann Films]

PRICE

RED Helium Ranger + Monitor:

$31,400 

URSA Pro 12K + Accessories:

$11,500

• The new URSA Pro is 37% of the price of RED's comparable offering.

SPECS

RED Helium Ranger:

8K @ 60p (12:1 Compression)

4K @ 120p (Cropped Sensor)

URSA Pro 12K:

12K @ 60p (5:1 Compression)

8K @ 110p (No Crop)

 

ANALYSIS

The new sensor technology that allows you to shoot at lower resolutions for higher framerates is arguably the most important aspect of this camera. That and...price. There's really no reason to be in a RED at this point in time. I guess if you hated money you would stick with them? I'm scrambling to find one area that RED would beat BM in and I can't think of one. It was always codec but we might just be there with the release of this new version of Blackmagics Color. Add in the full ecosystem compatibility with Resolve and the fact that it's almost 3x the price. Seriously, if Blackmagic wanted to make a dent on the high end I think they just blew it up. RED is going to have to innovate AND lower their prices (drastically) just to be competitive again. You will have outliers and people that stay loyal to the brand for whatever reason...but if you're unbiased and just looking to make the right purchase, I don't see how RED makes any sense. As of today at least.

Seriously a crazy release and few days here. I don't know if I have ever pre-ordered>cancelled pre-order>pre-ordered new camera in a 48 hour window before. 

[sanveer]

35 minutes ago, Neumann Films said:

8K @ 110p (No Crop)

John Brawley said the 110p would be upgraded to 120p. Also the model used for the test shots contained the innards of the old G2, and the final released 12k model will have completely new innards ("It was “disguised” as an URSA Mini Pro G2, and even used G2 hardware inside. The shipping camera will have totally different innards.").

So this may be further improved, till it makes it to actual testers. 

 

https://johnbrawley.wordpress.com

[Snowfun]

45 minutes ago, Neumann Films said:

I'm scrambling to find one area that RED would beat BM in

Quality control and after sales service?

(a genuine question not a suggestion!)

[Neumann Films]

13 minutes ago, Snowfun said:

Quality control and after sales service?

(a genuine question not a suggestion!)

Quality Control...likely. I don’t know much about Blackmagic but from what I have heard it’s spotty?

RED has turned theirs around but there was a time where it was fairly “hit or miss”. I have had minor issues with almost every one I have owned now that I think about it.

After Sales Service - Again, not totally sure but I can say that RED’s is top notch. 

[newfoundmass]

QC can be an issue, particularly on early units. My original Pocket had issues, but they replaced it with a brand new one so I couldn't really complain. I've heard fewer complaints about the Ursa cameras, but heard complaints about the Pocket 4K and 6K, with scratched screens, dust on the sensor, etc. on "brand new" units.

I think those issues get resolved though. 

[majoraxis]

Blackmagic replaced a pocket for me no questions asked, so their support was excellent IMHO.

I think Grant mentioned the 12k having a redundant power supplies in his presentation (I could be wrong...) and that the 12k was completely re-engineered.  I think they are going for the highend and know that reliability and performance under extreme conditions is a must.

If it is 100% reliable and good in low-light with these specs, at this point in time, they could charge double and I think they would get a number of high end productions and rental houses adopting them IMHO.

I think they have priced it at $10k because they think they are going to sell a lot of them and I think they are right, but the adoption rate will be slower then if it were a $7k or $8k camera.

[Kino]

There are many things to consider beyond image quality and spec sheets if you have never owned a BM camera.

I believe you mentioned on another thread that you owned a RED Helium previously and that you shoot 8K for display manufacturers. Well, this is different. You are leaving the castle and joining the peasants.

Since we are talking about your livelihood, I would not purchase a $10K BM camera without an extended warranty of 3-5 years.

Now if you are selling stock footage at 8K RAW, you may have a problem with selling BRAW as it has not enjoyed the universal adoption of R3D files until very recently. I think BM released BRAW plugins for Adobe and Avid just last year.

If you want to rent your camera out for the maximum fee, the RED is also a better choice in that regard. Many (non-technical) people in the industry have never heard of BM, but they all know and want RED. This is due to ignorance perhaps, but it is reality.

The URSA 12K looks very impressive in J.B.'s controlled skin tone tests. Colors and skin tones are solid and the noise pattern is so finite that you can hardly see it. But the outdoor shots Grant showed in his presentation were nothing special in terms of DR or color. I would wait a few weeks until you get more test footage in challenging outdoor conditions.

[crevice]

I am not a RED user, but RED body style and modularity is much more attractive to me than whatever the hell Blackmagic are doing over there. The URSA is a shoulder ENG style camera in an age where most folks are shooting on gimbals and going handheld. Not to say shoulder still isn't one of the best ways to go, but I just don't think thats what the majority of the market (especially younger filmmakers) are doing.  I think if Blackmagic would have simply redesigned the body into something more modular and possibly even re-named it - they would have really knocked on REDs door. I mean the pocket line ergonomics have to be the worst of any camera I have ever used. But, I still have to agree that what you get with Blackmagic for the cost is insane. Also, BRAW will never beat RED Raw for the simple fact that RED owns the patent and is a true RAW format, where BRAW is solid, but its a faux RAW to skirt around the patent. 

[Video Hummus]

43 minutes ago, Kino said:

Now if you are selling stock footage at 8K RAW, you may have a problem with selling BRAW as it has not enjoyed the universal adoption of R3D files until very recently.

With stock there are multiple options. I’m sure offering source BRAW and a ProRes 444 is common. @Neumann Films?

43 minutes ago, Kino said:

Since we are talking about your livelihood, I would not purchase a $10K BM camera without an extended warranty of 3-5 years.

Yep good idea.

3 hours ago, Neumann Films said:

RED is going to have to innovate AND lower their prices (drastically) just to be competitive again. You will have outliers and people that stay loyal to the brand for whatever reason...but if you're unbiased and just looking to make the right purchase, I don't see how RED makes any sense. As of today at least.

RED probably won’t. They have a defacto monopoly on “internal compressed RAW capture device”.

In my opinion where BM is sneaking the dagger in is with BRAW and Resolve. The G2 Pro is just a Trojan horse. They want you on their ecosystem.

It would be in BMs best interest to get BRAW into a prosumer mirrorless camera as soon as possible. It’s coming to the Sigma fp, it’s on the EVA1 externally.

Say Panasonic released a GH6 or a S2 with internal BRAW. Yeah it may hurt Pocket sales, but I don’t think so. The trade off of getting people excited and interested in BRAW (and selling $300 DaVinci licenses) with a lot of those sales is worth it. It’s the bigger picture in fighting REDs dominance in the compressed RAW cinema camera arena.

If your ‘re not renting this camera out and your jobs won’t take a hit from not showing up with a RED label on your camera then the G2 Pro is a no brainer.

But they are ugly ass cameras if that matters.

[thebrothersthre3]

Another huge advantage is Blackmagic's BRAW edits way better than 8k red footage. They've really put in the work to make the BRAW codec edit friendly even in 12k. People are going to have a hard to ignoring the advantages that BM is offering. 

[crevice]

17 minutes ago, Video Hummus said:

It would be in BMs best interest to get BRAW into a prosumer mirrorless camera as soon as possible. It’s coming to the Sigma fp, it’s on the EVA1 externally.

Bingo. Charge a pretty penny for BRAW  and put it into as many cameras as you can. Sigma FP is not enough, there are like 10 people who own one and I think they are all on this forum. They need to get BRAW everywhere - just like how Sony spread their sensors everywhere.  People wont stop buying Blackmagic cameras, even if BRAW were in other cameras. We aren't going to get compressed RAW because of REDs patent, so BRAW or something similar is our only hope in other cameras. Every high end Fuji, Canon, Sony, etc. should be using BRAW internally - not Prores RAW to an Atomos Ninja externally solution. 

[Neumann Films]

1 hour ago, Kino said:

You are leaving the castle and joining the peasants.

I've been in the castle but I'm not royalty. I still have the peasant mindset with cameras. I'm definitely not a camera snob.

1 hour ago, Kino said:

Since we are talking about your livelihood, I would not purchase a $10K BM camera without an extended warranty of 3-5 years.

I generally have insurance on all of my gear, at least if it's over $1,000. I suggest most people do the same actually, Athos insurance is really affordable. 

1 hour ago, Kino said:

Now if you are selling stock footage at 8K RAW, you may have a problem with selling BRAW as it has not enjoyed the universal adoption of R3D files until very recently. I think BM released BRAW plugins for Adobe and Avid just last year.

A few things to mention here. It seems to be 50/50 with people that want RAW vs people that just want a color graded clip that's ready to rock. For the people that do want RAW...they are hiring high end post houses for grading and they will have no problems since they use Resolve. You are correct that R3D's are more universally adopted than BRAW, but in the high end post world Resolve is more adopted than even R3D's!

1 hour ago, Kino said:

If you want to rent your camera out for the maximum fee, the RED is also a better choice in that regard. Many (non-technical) people in the industry have never heard of BM, but they all know and want RED. This is due to ignorance perhaps, but it is reality.

I don't rent my cameras out and have never had success with it (due to my location).

1 hour ago, Kino said:

I would wait a few weeks until you get more test footage in challenging outdoor conditions.

I will be waiting a few weeks...for my order to arrive! Then I will have all of the test footage I need 🙂

37 minutes ago, crevice said:

I am not a RED user, but RED body style and modularity is much more attractive to me than whatever the hell Blackmagic are doing over there. 

I will always remember when I ordered the RED Helium and started planning a shoot. The day it showed up and I went to power it on with the AC adapter only to realize that it didn't have an AC input. I was pretty shocked, even for RED it was bad. I think the "modularity" is just an excuse to charge more money for accessories. It's actually one of the reasons I want out. Blackmagic is doing it the way it should be done. Internal ND, built in XLR with Phantom Power, easy battery solutions and MEDIA...don't get me going on media for RED cameras.

39 minutes ago, crevice said:

but its a faux RAW to skirt around the patent. 

For me, it's all about data rates and compression. R3D is great but when you have to shoot 12:1 compression in 60p but you can do 5:1 in BRAW...I would choose 5:1 all day. Once you get into those higher compression numbers with RED files, they REALLY start to fall apart. 8K 60 looks pretty poor when you zoom in. I did some internal tests for a streaming company and they were less than impressed with the Helium at 8K 60.

34 minutes ago, Video Hummus said:

With stock there are multiple options. I’m sure offering source BRAW and a ProRes 444 is common. @Neumann Films?

There are two camps. One camp likes things ready to rock and don't care about color grading. They just want it to look great right away. The other camp wants the RAW files but I can always get away with 4444 in Log. The other camp is thrilled with 10 Bit H.265. I mean, H.265 is really incredible for delivery!

 

[Laurier]

As is , I think red is not relevant anymore.

I have the theory that the Komodo is a transition product made to preserve the image of the brand while introducing a lowering of their prices.

Red had some agreements with Foxcon to start manufacturing 8k cameras last year, I think they will release more aggressively priced cameras sooner or later to stay in competition.

[Neumann Films]

2 minutes ago, Laurier said:

I think they will release more aggressively priced cameras sooner or later to stay in competition.

Probably reason #1 that I got out when I did. I felt a major price drop was around the corner. Now it almost has to be!

[newfoundmass]

They kind of need to be more aggressive with their pricing. But as long as they make everything proprietary, it's not a business model that will work moving forward. Frankly I'm surprised it was ever a successful business model. 

[Video Hummus]

18 minutes ago, newfoundmass said:

Frankly I'm surprised it was ever a successful business model. 

The aggressive over reaching patent is the reason for the success in my opinion. I think now that BRAW is reaching and exceeding what R3D is we will see how long they last. Its fine paying 35K+ for a red camera that nothing else can do...thats not the case anymore.

[thebrothersthre3]

6 minutes ago, Video Hummus said:

The aggressive over reaching patent is the reason for the success in my opinion. I think now that BRAW is reaching and exceeding what R3D is we will see how long they last. Its fine paying 35K+ for a red camera that nothing else can do...thats not the case anymore.

RED can still survive for a while on its name alone. However pro's won't turn down cheaper options that actually perform better for very long. 

[newfoundmass]

13 minutes ago, Video Hummus said:

The aggressive over reaching patent is the reason for the success in my opinion. I think now that BRAW is reaching and exceeding what R3D is we will see how long they last. Its fine paying 35K+ for a red camera that nothing else can do...thats not the case anymore.

I think the initial selling point was that the price of entry was significantly lower than alternatives of the time. Lower price plus better specs will always get people's attention. I was always turned off by their proprietary bullshit though. Not being able to just use my own stuff just always rubbed me the wrong way. Any company that tries to exert that much control over their paying customers should be looked at with suspicion. 

[Super8]

The 12K footage looks good but not better than Arri, RED or Canon.    It still looks like BM color science.

BM has a brand problem.  No big studio has to move away from RED or Arri.   The incentive to do so is not their unless the image quality is better.

BM has also shown the flaws of it's lower line up.

[newfoundmass]

It's not an overnight process. It's priced where it's priced to entice others to take a chance on it, show what it's capable of, and hopefully win over bigger and bigger productions. They've already made inroads there, and this is the latest attempt to get higher profile users. I think they'll succeed.