Blackmagic Design > RED

[JordanWright]

2 hours ago, Snowfun said:

Discussion on reduser about how “thick” the RED image is concerned to the “thin” image from BM (and, needless to say every other camera). 
Isn’t this a bit like discussing how long God’s beard is? 

Theres no changing minds over there, they're in too deep. They were lining up to preorder Komodo at a premium without any footage and limited details on specs 

[Emanuel]

5 hours ago, Snowfun said:

And let’s not forget that it IS cheap...

Indeed I hope that the next iteration doesn’t feel so cheap and is, in fact, not so cheap.

Love really cheap cameras, so does Blackmagic, Pocket all included ; ) Great cams BTW : -)

[Oliver Daniel]

What an absolutely, ridiculously unexpected announcement. 

I’m glad RED have been finally “overtaken” in specs, it’s great for the industry. 

It’s likely I won’t use this new camera as I do a lot of quick moving handheld work, and the original UM Pro is just too damn heavy for that. Love the image though. 

 

[techie]

Customer wins.

[barefoot_dp]

On 7/18/2020 at 3:40 AM, crevice said:

I am not a RED user, but RED body style and modularity is much more attractive to me than whatever the hell Blackmagic are doing over there. The URSA is a shoulder ENG style camera in an age where most folks are shooting on gimbals and going handheld. Not to say shoulder still isn't one of the best ways to go, but I just don't think thats what the majority of the market (especially younger filmmakers) are doing.  I think if Blackmagic would have simply redesigned the body into something more modular and possibly even re-named it - they would have really knocked on REDs door. I mean the pocket line ergonomics have to be the worst of any camera I have ever used. But, I still have to agree that what you get with Blackmagic for the cost is insane. Also, BRAW will never beat RED Raw for the simple fact that RED owns the patent and is a true RAW format, where BRAW is solid, but its a faux RAW to skirt around the patent. 

I've spent a lot of time as an AC rigging up Red's and I have to say they are truly a pain. The problem is the body is too tall, with the lens mount (ie all the weight) up quite high. It makes most shoulder-mounts impractical, as the center of gravity is too high and harder to balance. It also means you need a heavier duty tripod and very specific base plates to get the correct vertical spacing of rails so that all your lens motors will fit.

The URSA cameras are ugly as hell, but they are very fast and flexible when switching between handheld, shoulder-mount, easy-rig, and tripod.

[Neumann Films]

I wanted to update this a bit.

Blackmagic Design Support is some of the worst I have experienced. It’s down there with the old DJI days. When you hide your support team and limit their accessibility to email only...there’s something wrong.
 

It’s understandable if we are talking about cheaper cameras like the Pocket series (understandable but not ideal) but with the URSA line and specifically with this new 12K camera, this level of after sales service/support simply won’t cut it. They will lose their desired share of REDs market faster than they realize. When people start dropping $10K on something they expect to talk to a person and to be able to figure things out quickly.

DJI really turned theirs around in recent years so it CAN be changed. Blackmagic Design needs to start now though, they can’t wait.

[Yannick Willox]

That’s weird. When I click on support and scroll down on the bmd website, I have three options: forum, email and telephone.

never tried calling, as I never needed to.

But they clearly have regional telephone support.

It does not seem hidden, there is a name and a photo of your regional support manager, business hours and a tel. Nr.

[newfoundmass]

When I had issues with the OG Pocket I had to deal with them over email, but they were pretty quick to handle things. I sent them the camera, they said they couldn't fix it but would send me a new one, which arrived in 2 days. I don't think it took longer than 10 business days total, which for me wasn't bad at all though for high end clients they might need quicker turn around times. 

[TheRenaissanceMan]

12 minutes ago, newfoundmass said:

When I had issues with the OG Pocket I had to deal with them over email, but they were pretty quick to handle things. I sent them the camera, they said they couldn't fix it but would send me a new one, which arrived in 2 days. I don't think it took longer than 10 business days total, which for me wasn't bad at all though for high end clients they might need quicker turn around times. 

Repair/replacement is very different for a $500 camera versus a $10K camera

[Neumann Films]

49 minutes ago, Yannick Willox said:

That’s weird. When I click on support and scroll down on the bmd website, I have three options: forum, email and telephone.

never tried calling, as I never needed to.

But they clearly have regional telephone support.

It does not seem hidden, there is a name and a photo of your regional support manager, business hours and a tel. Nr.

I mean, try calling and getting info on the 12K camera. There's a number, yes. It goes to a receptionist that asks where you want to forward the call to, you mention "12K URSA" and it gets shut down.

To be fair, I don't have a ton of experience with them so if this is a weird situation or not representative of what it's usually like...then I'm relieved. It put a bad taste in my mouth though, I imagine other RED users that might be considering coming over would feel the same. When you purchase a RED or even want to inquire about one they send you an account rep. I have texted my account rep and gotten updates and tracking numbers. It's just...very personable. Calling Blackmagic felt like the exact opposite. More like "we don't want to talk to you...email us."

🤷‍♂️

[Emanuel]

They decidedly have to improve their communication. I've been saying this for ages! I even was accused here to harass BMD reps over these same pages because I simply said the truth. And I am a brand enthusiast and happy camper, go figure! : X

Let alone their arrogance RED never had with me as customer. I tend to believe the fact I and Jarred consider each other friends have nothing about such personal experience : -)

[newfoundmass]

1 hour ago, TheRenaissanceMan said:

Repair/replacement is very different for a $500 camera versus a $10K camera

You're not wrong, I was just sharing my experience. 

[thebrothersthre3]

2 hours ago, Neumann Films said:

I mean, try calling and getting info on the 12K camera. There's a number, yes. It goes to a receptionist that asks where you want to forward the call to, you mention "12K URSA" and it gets shut down.

To be fair, I don't have a ton of experience with them so if this is a weird situation or not representative of what it's usually like...then I'm relieved. It put a bad taste in my mouth though, I imagine other RED users that might be considering coming over would feel the same. When you purchase a RED or even want to inquire about one they send you an account rep. I have texted my account rep and gotten updates and tracking numbers. It's just...very personable. Calling Blackmagic felt like the exact opposite. More like "we don't want to talk to you...email us."

🤷‍♂️

Well to be fair the 12k ursa isn't out. Maybe they don't want to take a bunch of calls for a product that isn't even making them any money yet.

[SteveV4D]

4 minutes ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

Well to be fair the 12k ursa isn't out. Maybe they don't want to take a bunch of calls for a product that isn't even making them any money yet.

I'm having a terrible time calling any Business at the moment.  I'm told by stressed out phone operators when I do get through that Covid has led to more calls and fewer staff to deal with it.  Could be total BS, but trying to release any camera this year is going to be difficult given recent restrictions Worldwide.  

[JordanWright]

Ive had good experiences with them, sent a camera in 3 times now (third in currently). The first time I called up (although this time I couldn't find a number, maybe covid related?) I explained an issue and was guided through troubleshooting it by someone who seemed to have a lot of information. The first 2 times I had a camera repaired/replaced and had it back in my hands within 48 Hours. I remember dealing with DHL a little frustrating arranging a pickup. This time I have gone through CVP and its taking a little longer as there repair guys looked at it before sending it to BM. Ill update when my current issue is resolved! 

[TheRenaissanceMan]

1 hour ago, newfoundmass said:

You're not wrong, I was just sharing my experience. 

Fair enough! Glad they came through for you. Hopefully, that bodes well for owner-ops/rental houses who embrace this new camera. 🙂

[Neumann Films]

All good points, I’ll give them the benefit of the doubt!

[Andrew Reid]

9 hours ago, Neumann Films said:

I wanted to update this a bit.

Blackmagic Design Support is some of the worst I have experienced. It’s down there with the old DJI days. When you hide your support team and limit their accessibility to email only...there’s something wrong.
 

It’s understandable if we are talking about cheaper cameras like the Pocket series (understandable but not ideal) but with the URSA line and specifically with this new 12K camera, this level of after sales service/support simply won’t cut it. They will lose their desired share of REDs market faster than they realize. When people start dropping $10K on something they expect to talk to a person and to be able to figure things out quickly.

DJI really turned theirs around in recent years so it CAN be changed. Blackmagic Design needs to start now though, they can’t wait.

Something isn't right because I'm not the only one to experience the 'dark side' of Blackmagic.

Strange shills that come out of the woodwork on my forum during big releases.

Anonymous email spam about Blackmagic news.

Even though I have bought almost every BM camera at some point or another...

For some reason I never felt valued as a Blackmagic customer, more like used.

Used for publicity and a guinea pig early adopter, a beta tester.

Waiting ages for pre-orders. Black hole where sun should be. Dreadful card compatibility. Dust and debris on sensor of brand new cameras. Scuffs on the body. May as well have bought used.

But if you think support is bad wait till you deal with a certain Mr Patrick Hussey (big boss of communications in the UK and Europe). Never felt so disrespected in my life and this is from a guy's whose actual job description is to look after the press and reviewers! Bought the original BMCC, original Pocket too, the new 4K, and the 6K... that is 4 cameras and thousands of quid! And yet still this wasn't anywhere near enough to generate any positive support or acknowledgement from the company or representatives, even though some of the staff and John Brawley used my forum to discuss and promote Blackmagic while taking my money at retail!

Don't get me wrong. I am all for camera companies speaking direct to users. But I think if Blackmagic staff are going to use this forum to promote their products and engage with customers, the very least they can do is OK it with me first and get on good terms. Otherwise, what's in it for me?

They are looking like heroes, getting on the publicity and adulation, whilst I sit here ignored with my stack of broken Blackmagic cameras.

I think using this platform for promotional purposes, whilst not giving me (actual buying customer) the time of day, is disgraceful ethics. I have since come to the conclusion that they don't even care. In my opinion the core of the company in Melbourne is a great engineering led team, seems very innovative, but the camera design side (ergonomics) needs massive improvement, the production (build quality) and shipping quantities need to be in a different league for them to challenge RED, Sony, Canon, ARRI, and support needs to improve big style before I buy another BMD camera. Purely in my opinion, Grant Petty needs to delegate more and to better people, and sort the marketing department out so that it doesn't add insult to injury for a customer who bought 4 dodgy cameras in a row (me).

[Video Hummus]

Bottom line is this camera is a game changer for BM. It’s the camera where finally a custom made sensor and BRAW come together. REDs are jewelry cameras in a way. A status symbol work tool. The Hilti power tool guys that can’t believe you used Dewalt to make your deck.

Now what they should do is get BRAW in other brands cameras ASAP.

[Neumann Films]

3 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

For some reason I never felt valued as a Blackmagic customer, more like used.

I guess that sums it up for me. There are three kinds of customer service:

- The "Outsourced Human FAQ" where they pay pennies to some overseas company to basically regurgitate readily available information from their own website/forums. 

- The "Legitimate Access to Truly Knowledgeable Humans" where you might have to wait longer in the queue but once you talk to someone the problem is going to be solved...no matter what.

- The "Indifferent and Understaffed Approach". The overwhelming feeling once you're done dealing with this form is that you feel like YOU have been a headache and have wasted THEIR time. 

The top one never makes me mad. I get it, I might not get the answer I want but at least I can get a swift RMA or return going. The bottom one (which Blackmagic seems to employ in my limited experience) is beyond frustrating because you get the sense that...they have your money and now they don't care. 

All I know is that the market for this camera is going to be small and the customer service WILL be a breaking point for some people...because RED's is heavenly in comparison. I have my RED reps number in my phone and I can text him when I need something.  He responds within like...a minute. It's awesome. It's an awesome buying experience and they are good the whole way through. Almost like they are overstaffed with people that know the cameras well and seem to care about their job. 

Blackmagic was like calling a Hobby Store in your local town. That feeling when you're fully prepared for the person on the other end to say "no". Whatever the question is that you're going to ask, you just already know what their answer is going to be. You can sense the amount of help you're about to receive. I dunno, maybe the American branch is just that way? I can't say, it's just not ideal and NOT helpful at all. 

I wanted a simple answer, the simplest...when might the cameras start shipping?

Her - "We don't have that information."

Me - "Really? Like, not even a ballpark? Q3, Q2 2021?"

Her - "I can't say."

Me - "It IS going to ship at some point though, yes? You're allowed to say that the answer isn't "NEVER", right?"

Her - "You'll have to email support."

Me - "Your customer service is atrocious"

Her - "Anything else?"

Like...I'm exaggerating it a bit but that was about 90% of the gist. I was pretty upset since I just dropped $10K on their product and that's the best they can muster. My first reaction to hanging up the phone was like "Fuck this...I'm cancelling". If it's that bad for trying to get a simple answer of when the cameras might ship, what happens if I actually need something?