Blackmagic Design > RED

[Alt Shoo]

25 minutes ago, Super8 said:

The 12K footage looks good but not better than Arri, RED or Canon.    It still looks like BM color science.

BM has a brand problem.  No big studio has to move away from RED or Arri.   The incentive to do so is not their unless the image quality is better.

BM has also shown the flaws of it's lower line up.

I agree with the brand name problem, but you can say that about any of the brands not Arri or RED and regarding the image quality comparison, that’s highly subjective. 

[majoraxis]

30 minutes ago, Super8 said:

The 12K footage looks good but not better than Arri, RED or Canon.    It still looks like BM color science.

BM has a brand problem.  No big studio has to move away from RED or Arri.   The incentive to do so is not their unless the image quality is better.

BM has also shown the flaws of it's lower line up.

I'm waiting for a side by side test like Tom Antos does..  I think we can safely say that this is best skin tones we have seen out of a Blackmagic camera.  As far as compared to other cameras, that remains to be seen via a comparison video.

[crevice]

44 minutes ago, Super8 said:

The 12K footage looks good but not better than Arri, RED or Canon.    It still looks like BM color science.

BM has a brand problem.  No big studio has to move away from RED or Arri.   The incentive to do so is not their unless the image quality is better.

BM has also shown the flaws of it's lower line up.

Going to agree with this as well. I have never really seen a Blackmagic camera on a legit shoot. It's usually always Arri, RED, or Canon. At my old job Canon c300 was the go to for eng/documentary footage. In all other shoots I have been on its RED or Arri (mostly Arri at this point). Can the ursa line shoot fantastic video? Yes. Is it better than Arri or RED? Definitely not better than Arri, but I do think that the ursa mini with Fairchild sensor looks better in many cases than some RED cams. But their is a brand problem for sure. 

I have to go back to my previous point that their plastic outdated body design doesn't help them much in any area. It feels and looks cheap. You cant take it serious. Ursa might not feel as cheap as the pockets,  but it sure does look dated. Also, just because the pocket line isn't used much in high end work, doesn't mean that it doesn't affect the entire brand. They look like fisher price toys and when you bring up Blackmagic in high end shoots, they are usually kinda laughed at for being cameras for amateurs. I am NOT saying that is accurate nor do I agree with the attitude, but that is the attitude they have. Lastly, if we look at communities around a brand - Blackmagic community is dead last. They are as an overall community (not targeting everyone),  the most immature/amateur group of the big brands. Their Facebook groups and forums are littered with attack memes toward other brands, horrible amateur videos of their girlfriends in slow motion with crappy LUTs, and 98 percent of the posts are about some creative way to try and rig the atrociuous bodies of the pocket line. Most of them have never been on an actual shoot. I mean, just look at their groups over the last 24 hours, people are freaking out about the URSA being expensive at $10k, which just shows they have no idea what the real value of a cinema camera is. This all adds up to a brand image and amazing camera or not, Blackmagic have an image of a cheap brand that shots good video for amateur filmmakers on a budget and Arri and RED are for high end work. Its going to take a lot of work for Blackmagic to turn that around. 

[Super8]

25 minutes ago, majoraxis said:

I'm waiting for a side by side test like Tom Antos does..  I think we can safely say that this is best skin tones we have seen out of a Blackmagic camera.  As far as compared to other cameras, that remains to be seen via a comparison video.

And I've complained about BM skin tones for a long time.  You also have BM defenders that say BM skin tones are great. 

It's all about what you don't know.

[Neumann Films]

The dirty secret is that RED color has been terrible since Epic Dragon. The Helium sensor is just bad. Prior to Dragon, RED received very similar complaints to what BM is getting right now. It only takes one solid camera and a few years to change the narrative.

[Alt Shoo]

1 hour ago, crevice said:Their Facebook groups and forums are littered with attack memes toward other brands, horrible amateur videos of their girlfriends in slow motion with crappy LUTs, and 98 percent of the posts are about some creative way to try and rig the atrociuous bodies of the pocket line. Most of them have never been on an actual shoot. I mean, just look at their groups over the last 24 hours, people are freaking out about the URSA being expensive at $10k, which just shows they have no idea what the real value of a cinema camera is. This all adds up to a brand image and amazing camera or not, Blackmagic have an image of a cheap brand that shots good video for amateur filmmakers on a budget and Arri and RED are for high end work. Its going to take a lot of work for Blackmagic to turn that around. 

That’s in all the groups I’ve visited. Each group has a set of “patriotic” members who bash other cameras, make tree and backyard videos with their small tilta wooden rig , theorize on what if’s  and no real footage.

I agree that the body should be a bit more durable and maybe they should have made it more sensor in a box, but the camcorder body is a proven design conducive to out of the box filming. In addition 

Grant said that this release is for the high end and all we can do now is watch what happens with this camera. 

[Super8]

1 hour ago, Neumann Films said:

The dirty secret is that RED color has been terrible since Epic Dragon. The Helium sensor is just bad. Prior to Dragon, RED received very similar complaints to what BM is getting right now. It only takes one solid camera and a few years to change the narrative.

RED color and footage holds up.  RED blows away BM across the board. 

Black Magic footage is always graded away from natural color.  Always.  The same with the GH5.  Give me one color grade that has a natural look and let's see how these cameras hold up. 

 

 

 

[newfoundmass]

Here we go again. Woof. 

[kye]

4 hours ago, crevice said:

Their Facebook groups and forums are littered with attack memes toward other brands, horrible amateur videos of their girlfriends in slow motion with crappy LUTs, and 98 percent of the posts are about some creative way to try and rig the atrociuous bodies of the pocket line.

This made me laugh..  so true!

<insert slow-motion girlfriend footage>......   buy my LUT pack!

[Neumann Films]

2 hours ago, Super8 said:

RED color and footage holds up.  RED blows away BM across the board.

Certainly debatable as of two days ago ☺️

[Coiii]

Ask a  experienced DP if they want to shoot a movie on a RED or a Blackmagic.

RED and Blackmagic are different markets. The market for the RED Helium is high budget TV shows, commercials, movies, music videos and documentaries where producers and DP are going for much more than just resolution or specs. It's about brand recognition (overall RED has good reputation, reliability (REDs fail, but they have an amazing customer service), image quality for capture and post production (approved by high budget movies and production houses), etc etc etc. It's not just a thing about price vs specs (ask yourself why the Alexa Mini is the most popular camera and it's not even 4K...)

I'm not saying that Blackmagic will not be a great brand in the future, they probably ill (?), but at the same time they have a lot to prove on the market, and that's not an easy task, it's a work of years and years, not just high specs and tech disruption.

[Neumann Films]

16 minutes ago, Coiii said:

Ask a  experienced DP if they want to shoot a movie on a RED or a Blackmagic.

RED and Blackmagic are different markets. The market for the RED Helium is high budget TV shows, commercials, movies, music videos and documentaries where producers and DP are going for much more than just resolution or specs. It's about brand recognition (overall RED has good reputation, reliability (REDs fail, but they have an amazing customer service), image quality for capture and post production (approved by high budget movies and production houses), etc etc etc. It's not just a thing about price vs specs (ask yourself why the Alexa Mini is the most popular camera and it's not even 4K...)

I'm not saying that Blackmagic will not be a great brand in the future, they probably ill (?), but at the same time they have a lot to prove on the market, and that's not an easy task, it's a work of years and years, not just high specs and tech disruption.

RED had a similar reputation not all that long ago. It takes a big innovative splash to make people change ships...once they do you have a chance to shake up the market. I think this camera will make enough RED users jump ship and then it all comes down to this specific camera and how good/reliable it is. There’s no reason to think this camera isn’t how Blackmagic enters that conversation. None at all.

[thebrothersthre3]

Obviously Blackmagic doesn't have the pro reputation that RED has. They are trying to change that. If this camera can really deliver that will launch them forward. We'll see..

[Neumann Films]

9 minutes ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

Obviously Blackmagic doesn't have the pro reputation that RED has. They are trying to change that. If this camera can really deliver that will launch them forward. We'll see..

I think their biggest advantage is the reputation they have built with all of their other products. Their cameras have aimed high and come up short in the past but they haven’t ever really gone after the high end market.

One thing I will say, I think their customer service is pretty bad. If they want to break into the high end game they will need to beef that up.

[thebrothersthre3]

4 minutes ago, Neumann Films said:

I think their biggest advantage is the reputation they have built with all of their other products. Their cameras have aimed high and come up short in the past but they haven’t ever really gone after the high end market.

One thing I will say, I think their customer service is pretty bad. If they want to break into the high end game they will need to beef that up.

Yeah this is really their first release that looks like it may be a better piece of tech than anything out there. Still ugly looking as you have pointed out but hey if it works, that's the main thing. We still haven't really seen any examples showing the actual dynamic range or high ISO performance. I think for this really to be successful it needs to be delivering on all fronts. 

I do hope they are taking steps with their costumer service(which I've never used) and quality control. I really would love to see Blackmagic succeed. 

[Coiii]

46 minutes ago, Neumann Films said:

RED had a similar reputation not all that long ago. It takes a big innovative splash to make people change ships...once they do you have a chance to shake up the market. I think this camera will make enough RED users jump ship and then it all comes down to this specific camera and how good/reliable it is. There’s no reason to think this camera isn’t how Blackmagic enters that conversation. None at all.

... And that's why I said that Blackmagic needs to work more years to get the approval.

For me Blackmagic already has the technology. They have the sensors, the software, and the ecosystem. Now they need to work on reliability. Add $5000usd and transform the plastic body of the Ursa 12K into a magnesium/metal body and work harder to solve the sensor issues, color cast, etc. They also need better customer service.

Don't get me wrong. I really like Blackmagic and I want them to succeed because they have pushed the market like no one else since RED and the RED One. I own a Pocket 4K and loved the image for $1.200, but I'm selling it just because the battery issues. At least for me, Blackmagic needs a few more years and they will become a huge competitor to RED, Canon and Sony in the +$10000 market.

[Super8]

10 minutes ago, Coiii said:

... And that's why I said that Blackmagic needs to work more years to get the approval.

For me Blackmagic already has the technology. They have the sensors, the software, and the ecosystem. Now they need to work on reliability. Add $5000usd and transform the plastic body of the Ursa 12K into a magnesium/metal body and work harder to solve the sensor issues, color cast, etc. They also need better customer service.

Don't get me wrong. I really like Blackmagic and I want them to succeed because they have pushed the market like no one else since RED and the RED One. I own a Pocket 4K and loved the image for $1.200, but I'm selling it just because the battery issues. At least for me, Blackmagic needs a few more years and they will become a huge competitor to RED, Canon and Sony in the +$10000 market.

I agree about the body of the BM12K.   They need to stop messing around with the weird design looks and innovate the body so it appeals to RED users or anyone else.  If you spend 10K on a camera body in 2020 it should at least look as good what RED produces.  

[Neumann Films]

Just now, Super8 said:

I agree about the body of the BM12K.   They need to stop messing around with the weird design looks and innovate the body so it appeals to RED users or anyone else.  If you spend 10K on a camera body in 2020 it should at least look as good what RED produces.  

I guess I need to look at it a little closer, it seemed like a C300 or something more in that range? 

[newfoundmass]

Holy shit, are we really complaining about how it looks now? It's not going to win any awards, but it looks fine. All the buttons are easily accessible and it's easily rigged up. 

Are we really gonna pretend that RED cameras are good looking? They're boxes with a mid 2000s gun anesthetic. 

[Super8]

1 minute ago, newfoundmass said:

Holy shit, are we really complaining about how it looks now? It's not going to win any awards, but it looks fine. All the buttons are easily accessible and it's easily rigged up. 

Are we really gonna pretend that RED cameras are good looking? They're boxes with a mid 2000s gun anesthetic. 

No one complained but you because you thought we were.   The points made were all about improving BM place in the market for high end productions.  Sorry but looks matter. 

Image also matters.  It's is odd that BM always touted specs and not image.  Now they are touting both.  I dig it.  It makes people ask what's under the hood.