Canon RAW and h265 10bit Resolve performance

[gt3rs]

As there are so many threads on R5,R6 and 1Dx III I thought is better to have a dedicated thread for editing perf.

Machine used for the test is a gaming notebook i9 10980HK, 2070 Super Max 8GB Vram, tested with files coming from internal M2 SSD and directly from the CFexpress card (no difference in the result).
Resolve 16.2.4, NVidia Studio driver. 
Very simple grade, 1 node for LUT, 1 node for LGG, 1 node for color boost, saturation and mid tone detail.

RAW: 

5.5k RAW 30 -> 5.5k 30 timeline realtime
5.5k RAW 60 -> 5.5k 30 timeline realtime
5.5k RAW 60 -> 5.5k 60 timeline 30-35 fps
5.5k RAW 60 -> 5.5k 60 timeline realtime (half res RAW processing)

8k RAW 24 -> 5.5k 24 timeline realtime (half res RAW processing)
8k RAW 24 -> 4k 24 timeline realtime (half res RAW processing)
8k RAW 24 -> 4k 24 timeline 15 fps
8k RAW 24 -> 8k 24 timeline 15 fps but not usable as you get gpu out of memory

h265 10bit:
4k 120 all-i -> 4k 30 timeline no realtime
4k 60 all-i -> 4k 30 timeline no realtime
4k 60 ipb -> 4k 30 timeline no realtime
4k 30 all-i -> 4k 30 timeline no realtime
4k 30 ipb -> 4k 30 timeline realtime

Observations:

- RAW is much easier in perf than h265 10bit, afiak no HW acceleration is currently supporting h265 10bit 4:2:2 only 4:2:0 or 4:4:4
- Thanks that you can set half res RAW (you can even set quarter res) on the decoding setting you can work in real time and then switch to full res for final rendering.
- Very strange that ipb can playback in realtime and all-i not, it could be a Resolve issue
- You need to disable Intel Quick Sync in Resolve preferences if not you cannot view h265 files, this seems a bug as they could detect that is not compatible with quick sync.
- 8k timeline with 8GB Vram is just not possible in Resolve. So even frame grabbing becomes an issue. 6k timeline works for frame grabbing. Did not test the limit here. 
- It is a very powerful notebook but no where near a powerful workstation... is a tad slower than a i7 9900k 1070 machine.

Hopefully both Resolve and CPU/GPU vendor will better support h265 10bit 4:2:2.

Bottom-line what you save in storage in not using RAW you will spend in time converting the footage.

Would be cool that other reports their experience in this thread and also with other NLEs.

[DWX]

I have not had any success exporting the R5 test 8K Raw file in Resolve 16.2.4 with the latest Nvida studio drivers released yesterday.  Getting GPU memory full.  I7-9750H/RTX 2080 Max-Q.  Quicksync disabled.

Choppy playback on 8K timeline full res, CPU 98% GPU 55%.  Playback smooth when set to half res.

No issues with 4K timeline, CPU 65% GPU 32%

 

[gt3rs]

8 minutes ago, DWX said:

I have not had any success exporting the R5 test 8K Raw file in Resolve 16.2.4 with the latest Nvida studio drivers released yesterday.  Getting GPU memory full.  I7-9750H/RTX 2080 Max-Q.  Quicksync disabled.

 

 

8k timeline rendering on 8 GB VRam is impossible in Resolve

[hijodeibn]

14 minutes ago, gt3rs said:

8k timeline rendering on 8 GB VRam is impossible in Resolve

you can't make 8K to work in Resolve, but 12K from the new Blackmagic runs like butter?, mmm!!!.

[gt3rs]

6 minutes ago, hijodeibn said:

you can't make 8K to work in Resolve, but 12K from the new Blackmagic runs like butter?, mmm!!!.

on a 8k timeline?

[zerocool22]

13 minutes ago, hijodeibn said:

you can't make 8K to work in Resolve, but 12K from the new Blackmagic runs like butter?, mmm!!!.

Thats braw though, which is a very efficient editing codec.

[hijodeibn]

4 minutes ago, zerocool22 said:

Thats braw though, which is a very efficient editing codec.

I think BM is just making resolve the best home for BRaw, which make sense, how about Premiere?, final cut?, did Braw performs in the same way?.

[zerocool22]

8 minutes ago, hijodeibn said:

I think BM is just making resolve the best home for BRaw, which make sense, how about Premiere?, final cut?, did Braw performs in the same way?.

Dunnow only use resolve.

[gt3rs]

1 hour ago, zerocool22 said:

Thats braw though, which is a very efficient editing codec.

No way 8k in whatever format on a 8 GB Vram GPU.
It easy to fool people you take 12k material, configure to process half or even quarter resolution on a 4k timeline and it works. On my machine 8k Canon RAW works fine at half res even on a 5.5k timeline. But 8k full res on 8k timeline on a notebook with max 8 GB Vram imo is not possible in Resolve. 

[joema]

20 hours ago, gt3rs said:

h265 10bit:
4k 120 all-i -> 4k 30 timeline no realtime
4k 60 all-i -> 4k 30 timeline no realtime
4k 60 ipb -> 4k 30 timeline no realtime
4k 30 all-i -> 4k 30 timeline no realtime
4k 30 ipb -> 4k 30 timeline realtime

...- RAW is much easier in perf than h265 10bit, afiak no HW acceleration is currently supporting h265 10bit 4:2:2 only 4:2:0 or 4:4:4
...- Very strange that ipb can playback in realtime and all-i not, it could be a Resolve issue

...Hopefully both Resolve and CPU/GPU vendor will better support h265 10bit 4:2:2.

I don't have R5 All-I or IPB material but I've seen similar behavior on certain 10-bit All-Intra codecs using both H.264 and HEVC. This is on MacOS, FCPX 10.4.8 and Resolve Studio 16.2.4 on both iMac Pro with 10-core Xeon W-2150B and Vega 64, and  2019 MacBook Pro 16" with 8-core "Coffee Lake" i9-9980HK and Radeon Pro 5500M. Xeon doesn't have Quick Sync so Apple uses custom logic in the T2 chip for hardware acceleration. The MBP 16 apparently uses Quick Sync, although in either machine could use AMD's UVD/VCE.

In theory All-I should be easy to decode, and for some codecs it is. The 300 mbps 4k 10-bit All-I from a Canon XC15 is very fast and smooth. By contrast, similar material from a Panasonic GH5 or S1 is very sluggish on FCPX but recent versions of Resolve is much faster. In that one case Resolve is better leveraging the available hardware acceleration, whether the T2  or Quick Sync.

For 10-bit IPB material from a Fuji X-T3, it is slow on both machines and both NLEs. Likewise the Fuji 10-bit HEVC material is super slow. Test material from that camera using various codecs: https://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/fuji-x-t3/fuji-x-t3VIDEO.HTM

There is no one version of 10-bit H264 or HEVC. Internally there are many different encoding parameters and only some of those are supported by certain *versions* of hardware acceleration.  There are many different versions of Quick Sync, many versions of nVidia's NVDEC/NVENC and many versions of AMD's UVD/VCE - all with varying capabilities. Each of those have different software development frameworks.  It would be nice if the people writing camera codecs coordinated their work with CPU, GPU and NLE people to ensure it could be edited smoothly.  Unfortunately it's like the wild west - a chaotic "zoo" of codec variants, hardware accelerators and NLE capabilities.

The general tendency is people buy a camera because they like the features, and then discover its codec cannot be smoothly edited in their favorite NLE (or any NLE). Then they complain the NLE vendors let them down. While there's an element of truth to that, the current reality is compressed codecs produce unreliable decode performance due to lack of standardization between the various technical stakeholders. This situation has gotten much worse with 4k and more widespread use of 10-bit and HEVC.

Back around 2010 it seemed Adobe's Mercury Playback engine handled DVI and 8-bit 1080p H264 from various cameras fairly well on most Windows hardware platforms. That was before Quick Sync debuted in 2011, so it must have used software decoding. Today we have much more advanced CPUs and hardware accelerators but these developments have not been well coordinated with codec producers -- at the very time when hardware acceleration is essential.

If you plan on editing a new camera's internal codec, that really must be tested on your current hardware and NLE -- before committing to the camera. The alternative is either transcode everything to a mezzanine codec or use ProRes acquisition,. However except for Blackmagic most cameras cannot do that without an external recorder. I'm not sure there is adequate sensitivity to this by most camera manufacturers. I just asked a senior Sony marketing person about external ProRes from the FX9 and he seemed unclear why I'd want that.

[ntblowz]

I guess batch converting to prores is probably the way

R5's X.265 10bit 4K120p is laggy on my i7-9700K with RTX 2070 8GB, 32GB RAM & 2TB Samsung SSD on premiere 2020

after converting to prores it can playback smoothly, cpu is using 66% and gpu 12%  (premiere really underutilize the gpu)

[zerocool22]

8 minutes ago, ntblowz said:

I guess batch converting to prores is probably the way

R5's X.265 10bit 4K120p is laggy on my i7-9700K with RTX 2070 8GB, 32GB RAM & 2TB Samsung SSD on premiere 2020

after converting to prores it can playback smoothly, cpu is using 66% and gpu 12%  (premiere really underutilize the gpu)

Thats not good enough for a pro workflow though. There is no time for converting footage on a workday. Only if you can start the batch it when you leave the office and the edit is not due the same or next day. But for a lot of projects this a problem though. 

Then its a whole lot better buying a camera with decent codecs pocket 4k, 6k, c300 iii, c500 ii. Even when they are a lot more expensive it will pay itself back in no time.

But for personal use the r5 does look like a camera that does it all for me(waiting on some decent reviews though)

[ntblowz]

1 minute ago, zerocool22 said:

Thats not good enough for a pro workflow though. There is no time for converting footage on a workday. Only if you can start the batch it when you leave the office and the edit is not due the same or next day. But for a lot of projects this a problem though. 

Then its a whole lot better buying a camera with decent codecs pocket 4k, 6k, c300 iii, c500 ii. Even when they are a lot more expensive it will pay itself back in no time.

But for personal use the r5 does look like a camera that does it all for me(waiting on some decent reviews though)

Well there is Ninja V which can do prores

For us we dont have many same day edit/due next day project, most of them is few days and some few months (those usually are 5-60k projects)

[zerocool22]

38 minutes ago, ntblowz said:

Well there is Ninja V which can do prores

For us we dont have many same day edit/due next day project, most of them is few days and some few months (those usually are 5-60k projects)

Sure but I dont think there are many of us who want to deal with external recorders anymore. Kinda dedeats the purpose of shooting with dslr/mirrorless type cameras. 

Woah, if you got too many of those 5-60k projects, lmk. ^^

[MeanRevert]

Where are people downloading these R5/R6 clips from?

[ntblowz]

7 hours ago, zerocool22 said:

Sure but I dont think there are many of us who want to deal with external recorders anymore. Kinda dedeats the purpose of shooting with dslr/mirrorless type cameras. 

Woah, if you got too many of those 5-60k projects, lmk. ^^

 

Those ones are rare for us too, but i know agencies have plenty of those jobs, and paying contractor peanuts. Those creative director/producer getting big chunks of shares.

 

5 hours ago, MeanRevert said:

Where are people downloading these R5/R6 clips from?

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1dA1Em-D2ioEJU5jInk_JT_EsQGVIprCZ

[ND64]

Internal prores would be gift of gods, but at 40k60 you have to swap memory card every 10min. 

[MeanRevert]

12 hours ago, ntblowz said:

 

Those ones are rare for us too, but i know agencies have plenty of those jobs, and paying contractor peanuts. Those creative director/producer getting big chunks of shares.

 

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1dA1Em-D2ioEJU5jInk_JT_EsQGVIprCZ

Thank for posting this.

Are these all H265 MP4s? Or some of them RAW?

[ntblowz]

On 7/21/2020 at 5:14 AM, MeanRevert said:

Thank for posting this.

Are these all H265 MP4s? Or some of them RAW?

Those 4K are H.265 MP4 only, no 4K RAW on R5 atm.  (might be planned in the future)

 

8K RAW

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1orh98TR0jyVYRVLGxAnZh7-1_9E3MNF-

[gt3rs]

On 7/17/2020 at 6:52 PM, DWX said:

I have not had any success exporting the R5 test 8K Raw file in Resolve 16.2.4 with the latest Nvida studio drivers released yesterday.  Getting GPU memory full.  I7-9750H/RTX 2080 Max-Q.  Quicksync disabled.

Choppy playback on 8K timeline full res, CPU 98% GPU 55%.  Playback smooth when set to half res.

No issues with 4K timeline, CPU 65% GPU 32%

 

I did manage setting the playback to proxy quarter res to render 8K timeline to 8k final output using full res RAW with minimal grades but is really not stable enough to work on 8k timeline with 8 GB VRAM. Puget recommend > 20 GB GPU RAM for 8k timeline in Resolve.

8K RAW on 4k or 5.5k timeline works quite well..