the BM 12K for S16. Is this the new S16 cam we all need

[hijodeibn]

1 minute ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

The exciting thing for me is they may put similar technology into a smaller cheaper body. A Pocket 6k that could also do 4k and 2k BRAW with no crop would be amazing.

exactly, this is what we were expecting based on rumors, a new pocket with new technology affordable for the indie/solo shooter, unfortunately we didn't get it, and yes, probably is on their way now, but is going to take some time, 2 more years?. 

[hijodeibn]

4 minutes ago, Yurolov said:

Cause with all due respect it isn't a good idea. He mentions wildlife being a use case but for wildlife it would be so much better just using crisp EF glass than vintage s16 lenses. How long does s16 glass even get?

No, I'm sorry; if you have the glass, fine. Otherwise, I don't see why anyone would purchase for this reason. I doubt ONE person will buy s16 glass to use with this camera.

he was just playing devil's lawyer, and a rich one, since he has the money to buy this new camera.

[hijodeibn]

14 minutes ago, mercer said:

We know you know. Haha.

@mercer finally returning from freeze land, I know you pronounced the forbidden word in this community (Ke** Ameri** Gre**), and you were exiled to hell, good to see you back, I have been expecting for your comments about the new canons, a lot of heat there (literally). 🙂 

[mercer]

@Geoff CB that was a mean spirited down vote to @hijodeibn 's comment. I feel I have always been very supportive of most people's endeavors on this site. I'm sorry if my presence offends you. Don't worry, I have no intention to keep posting. Just saying HI!

[techie]

These down votes are killing this place...

[Geoff CB]

1 hour ago, mercer said:

@Geoff CB that was a mean spirited down vote to @hijodeibn 's comment. I feel I have always been very supportive of most people's endeavors on this site. I'm sorry if my presence offends you. Don't worry, I have no intention to keep posting. Just saying HI!

Your right. I should not have down-voted that comment. Did it because of hijodeibn's recent extremely negative posts in several threads on the 12K. I read his "forbidden word in this community (Ke** Ameri** Gre**)" as a way to start an argument in the thread.

I'd much rather have a discussion, and my downvote was an inappropriate knee-jerk reaction. Hope to continue to see you in the forum.

[mercer]

45 minutes ago, Geoff CB said:

Your right. I should not have down-voted that comment. Did it because of hijodeibn's recent extremely negative posts in several threads on the 12K. I read his "forbidden word in this community (Ke** Ameri** Gre**)" as a way to start an argument in the thread.

I'd much rather have a discussion, and my downvote was an inappropriate knee-jerk reaction. Hope to continue to see you in the forum.

No worries. I apologize if I was being over sensitive.

Actually, my best friend of 30 years died of complications of Covid-19. He was a filmmaker in the middle of pitching a film to Netflix when he contracted Covid, and he was also a film critic for Pop Matters. So honestly, when I read these arguments about stupid cameras, I kinda laugh it off now and wish I never got involved in those arguments in the past.

Do I think 12K is silly... yes... but I'm still happy with my 1080p raw... so obviously I'm not the target consumer for this camera.

I'm still trying to figure out what filmmaking is in today's world and without my friend, so I have little interest in arguing about politics or cameras.

Live and let live...

On a positive note, I'm in the middle of writing a script, for a short film, that can be shot during Covid and I'm hoping to shoot it by the end of the summer.

I hope you and your loved ones are doing well. Please continue to be cautious, and safe!!!

[hijodeibn]

In just two days I become the most hated guy in this community, just because of I showed my profound disappointment and said loudly that the new BM camera was a waste of time, well, it is my opinion and is not going to change, I received downvoted like crazy, probably is a good idea that those downvoted are removed for good from this site.

@techie I hear you man, I hear you!

[hijodeibn]

1 hour ago, mercer said:

No worries. I apologize if I was being over sensitive.

Actually, my best friend of 30 years died of complications of Covid-19. He was a filmmaker in the middle of pitching a film to Netflix when he contracted Covid, and he was also a film critic for Pop Matters. So honestly, when I read these arguments about stupid cameras, I kinda laugh it off now and wish I never got involved in those arguments in the past.

Do I think 12K is silly... yes... but I'm still happy with my 1080p raw... so obviously I'm not the target consumer for this camera.

I'm still trying to figure out what filmmaking is in today's world and without my friend, so I have little interest in arguing about politics or cameras.

Live and let live...

On a positive note, I'm in the middle of writing a script, for a short film, that can be shot during Covid and I'm hoping to shoot it by the end of the summer.

I hope you and your loved ones are doing well. Please continue to be cautious, and safe!!!

Sad to hear about your friend, specially when he was probably going to be rewarded for all his effort as a filmmaker, I hope time give you some peace, and I am glad you are in business again, let us know when you finish your new short, I assume you will use your 5D3 with magic lantern, best luck in this new project!!!

[JimJones]

If you're an S16 aficionado then the new BM cam is great news. Its not going to change the world of course...who implied that? But it does change the S16 shooting world if thats your thing. If not, thats OK.

But if you are into S16 glass this cam is great news. Its the same size as the broadcast ursa. As pointed out a few posts ago there has been uptake of that body for S16. Why? Because its the only way to get genuine 4K in S16 format. I think its around the $4000 USD mark iirc. Whats nice about that body is it allows one to use B4 broadcast lenses - and some still do use B4. In fact there are some VERY nice HD B4 lenses out there - but super expensive. Its about the right tool for the job. B4 broadcast lenses have a big focal length range. Certainly you dont want the old tired SD B4 lenses, but there are some real gems in the B4 range.

Bring on the new era - which it seems we are entering with the new sensor.

The new 12K Ursa. Same size as the Broadcast Ursa. What does it give us over the older Broadcast Ursa? 4K @ 220 fps ! 6K @ 120 fps ! Plus a new sensor tech that we dont know a lot about yet. That sensor may prove to be a new standard or it may not...we just dont know yet. But 220/120 fps options are HUGE if you want to use S16. Now we can go as high as 6K. Only the best S16 glass will do for this though. But if you have those lenses it looks like there are good shooting times ahead.

If you are not an S16 guy then what I have said here hardly impacts you at all. None of the implications of this cam to S16 would excite you at all. Why would it? But if you ARE into S16 then this cam is hotter then ...well lets leave it at its hot.

The other thing about this cam is its 2 cams in one for me.

I have a set of Mamiya 645 glass converted to PL by Duclos. I have the extremely rare Mamiya 500mm f4.5 APO and the Mamiya 200mm f2.8 APO also converted to PL by Duclos. The 300mm Mamiya is still in the workshop being converted to PL. 

With this cam I can use both sets of lenses on the same body - my S16 glass that I love and my full frame 645 glass with lots of choices in focal lengths from my set. All on the same body with the same sensor with a res from 12K to 4K at my chosing. This is pretty dammed revolutionary! So yeah if that makes me enthusiastic then I am enthusiastic about the cam. I dont see 10K as expensive for what this cam offers.

I still love the 1080p footage from the BMPCC as well. Choose the tool from your box for the job at hand.  

[rawshooter]

Realistically though, the Blackmagic Pocket 4K with its 2.7K Super 16 crop recording mode should be more than enough. Even if you shoot with Zeiss Superspeeds, they will hardly resolve more than 2-3K. A 4K Super 16 camera will only yield a better resolution of lens blur and flares...

Plus, the Pocket 4K's MFT mount is much more versatile for adapting non-PL-mount lenses that cover Super 16 (such as Canon V... zooms and TV16 lenses in c-mount, and Cooke Kinetal lenses in Arri STD mount). 

[JimJones]

20 hours ago, Inazuma said:

I feel like s16 glass wouldn't even resolve that much detail? Might not be too different from just upscaling?

Actually S16 glass often resolved more line pairs then S35 glass of the era did. It had too because the S16 frame was so much smaller. Not saying all S16 lenses did this....but some did and those are the ones highly coveted. Having a well serviced S16 lens that is shimmed properly is half the battle.

[JimJones]

10 minutes ago, rawshooter said:

Realistically though, the Blackmagic Pocket 4K with its 2.7K Super 16 crop recording mode should be more than enough. Even if you shoot with Zeiss Superspeeds, they will hardly resolve more than 2-3K. A 4K Super 16 camera will only yield a better resolution of lens blur and flares...

Plus, the Pocket 4K's MFT mount is much more versatile for adapting non-PL-mount lenses that cover Super 16 (such as Canon V... zooms and TV16 lenses in c-mount, and Cooke Kinetal lenses in Arri STD mount). 

But no 220 fps on the pocket 4K.  Even if I have a tired old non serviced ill shimmed S16 lens mounted, I still get reframing room and 220 fps -IF I need it. Thats the thing ...its nice to have the choices..IF I need them. When I need those choices I need them, when I dont, I dont think twice about it.

This has been a great discussion and at least has people talking about S16 on this cam which I had not seen anywhere till this. Good Stuff !

[rawshooter]

I wouldn't be so sure about the reframing room in S16 on the 12K Ursa vs. the Pocket 4K. In practice, it could be the opposite, since the 12K Ursa really is an oversampled 4K camera. With its 6x6 RGBW sensor pattern (versus the Pocket 4K's 2x2 Bayer pattern), you will need to downsample to 67% or less (i.e. create 2x2 pixels from a 3x3 sensor pattern, since only 3x3 pixels will contain R,G and B values)  for a really usable image. That will yield the same resolution as the Pocket 4K in s16 crop...

But you will be able to record glorious true RGB in 2K s16 with it, with no debayering at all... Which could finally surpass the image of the Digital Bolex.

[majoraxis]

To me the point of Super 16 glass with the 12k is that you can added it to your full-frame PL collection and use it to shoot relative wide angle slow motion or you may the like using a Super 16 zoom with deeper depth of field when chasing around a subject when shooting a documentary.  I'm pretty sure the Angenieux 7-81mm T2.4 HR Zoom will be sharp enough for many applications. In fact, I bet there will be Super 16 cult following with this camera if it is good in low light.  That said, are people going to purchase it exclusive for Super 16, probably not especial when Blackmagic will probably eventually come up with a 1" 6k version of the RGBW sensor to update the USRA Mini Broadcast in the future.  At that point, as a dedicated Super 16 camera, I think it makes a lot of sense. Give it 2 years and the entire range will be RGBW...

[JimJones]

***YOU MUST GO TO THE URL's below DIRECTLY - not via a Google search***

 

Great read here on S16. http://cinematechnic.com/resources/optics_for_super-16/

As Jorge says, Optimum image quality in the S16 format requires PRECISE CALIBRATION of both the cameras flange focal distance and the lens back focus.

I have both the Angenieux 11.5 -138MM HR T2.3 Super 16

and the

Angenieux 10-120MM T2.0 referenced here ; http://cinematechnic.com/super-16mm/angenieux_115-138hr/

 

Jorge goes on to say that the 11.5-138mm is a very sharp lens with resolution in the area of 200 lines per milimeter, which he thinks out performs many prime lenses, further noting, especially at the edges of the frame.

Thats quite something I think...at least to me and I get it, not to many of you.

With all of the above and given I own these lenses, yes getting to shoot them at 6K@120 fps is an enticing concept. How many of those 6K pixels are actually usable remains to be seen, but starting with the best S16 glass ever made is a step in the right direction. Yes this U12K cam is exciting.

 

 

[rawshooter]

18 minutes ago, JimJones said:

Jorge goes on to say that the 11.5-138mm is a very sharp lens with resolution in the area of 200 lines per milimeter, which he thinks out performs many prime lenses, further noting, especially at the edges of the frame.

200 lines in Super 16 are still 'only' a resolution of 1480p or 2.6K.

[JimJones]

Its about more then just resolution. Look at the MTF response at the lp/mm. How much contrast is there at any given level.

I surely dont want a 1960's 16mm format lens (unless I want that "look"). But a 90's or early 2000's  S16 lens from Angenieux, Zeiss or Cooke (SK4's - YES YES PLEASE) is on the way to S16 nirvana. 

Now lets shoot these lenses all over again at 220 fps ! Thats what the U12K brings to the table, not to mention in "glorious true RGB"...which I definitely agree with. I am not sure how useful the 6K will be in terms of reproducing that rez, but it allows down sampling and reframing to some extent.

[hijodeibn]

Really guys, nobody is going to buy this camera to shoot S16 (probably one or two who don't know what to do with their money), it is too expensive, so let's stop talking about a revolution in S16, it is not going to happen, forget it, but I agree it is good to see a few people talking about S16 again. The good news about his camera, is that in the next years, we could see a new pocket from BM with this sensor and also having the S16 mode, and if the camera is affordable, around $3K, that's going to be a revolution for S16, and many people will be interested again in S16 format. I will never change my ming that this new BM is a waste of time, it is not oriented to us, so I don't care, I only care about a camera I can get and use, when BM release that pocket I am waiting I will be the first to rise the hands and celebrate like a child in Christmas.

[SteveV4D]

26 minutes ago, hijodeibn said:

Really guys, nobody is going to buy this camera to shoot S16 (probably one or two who don't know what to do with their money), it is too expensive, so let's stop talking about a revolution in S16, it is not going to happen, forget it, but I agree it is good to see a few people talking about S16 again. The good news about his camera, is that in the next years, we could see a new pocket from BM with this sensor and also having the S16 mode, and if the camera is affordable, around $3K, that's going to be a revolution for S16, and many people will be interested again in S16 format. I will never change my ming that this new BM is a waste of time, it is not oriented to us, so I don't care, I only care about a camera I can get and use, when BM release that pocket I am waiting I will be the first to rise the hands and celebrate like a child in Christmas.

If this camera is a success and helps Blackmagic further establish itself in Video Production and of the tech on this camera eventually helps lead to innovation in the Pocket line, then this is defiantly a good release, whether like me, you have no plans to buy it.  

Bit like the R5, pleased to see technology pushed, frustrated that what's been given won't be applicable to my needs, but hopeful that it will lead to something that is.  

In this game, we have to accept that not every camera is geared for us.  Time will tell, how successful the camera is, no matter what is speculated here.