Canon EOS R5 / R6 overheating discussion all in one place

[herein2020]

5 minutes ago, Emanuel said:

This is a specialised tool, not a workhorse.

1) https://tilta.com/2020/07/tiltaing-camera-cage-for-canon-r5/

2) https://www.indiatoday.in/technology/news/story/canon-designs-additional-adapter-to-fix-canon-eos-r5-overheating-issue-1705356-2020-07-28

 

I think the Tilta thing is a joke, the R5 is so weather sealed it will be like wearing a space suit and strapping a fan to the outside of your space helmet. Without thermal paste and cooling fins, all that will do is blow hot ambient air onto the outside of a weather sealed body; lets not forget women (and men) with long hair....good luck bringing something like that close to your face or trying to show a client the back of your camera with that thing spinning.

BTW, where is the power for that coming from? How loud will it be when recording audio? 

 

I don't understand the adapter either....so you will basically be pulling dust directly from outside of the camera and blowing it directly on the sensor, that sounds like a horrible idea. The S1H seems to be the only camera that truly gets the cooling situation and even it didn't try to do 8K, 4K120, or full sensor readout 4K60.

[Emanuel]

I am bald : D I just see a lot of posters without necessary practical experience in the filmmaking... Gosh

People in the field ARE used to get COMPETENT workarounds virtually in a whole daily basis :- )

This is part of the craft... This capture device can be very helpful if certain adaptations will be proved to be efficiently adopted. This is not B&W : )

 

It only depends on goodwill the brand has shown to fail once again for obvious business reasons;

...and talent to positively look for way outs.

Not the customary yadda yadda between fanboys and bashers. Phew.

[Nezza]

2 minutes ago, Emanuel said:

I just see a lot of posters without practical experienced in the filmmaking... Gosh

And I see someone who fundamentally doesn't understand hardware design. That trumps your IMDB credits in this department.
 

[Emanuel]

I am a filmmaker, not engineer. You?

Tilta has proven to offer good quality service BTW... Filmmakers trust on their suppliers.

[Avenger 2.0]

Looking forward to seeing the first real cooling mods. Remove the back plastic behind the LCD, put a real heatsink and fan and keep it cool enough for unlimited 8k recording 😎

[herein2020]

6 minutes ago, Emanuel said:

I am bald : D I just see a lot of posters without necessary practical experience in the filmmaking... Gosh

People in the field ARE used to get COMPETENT workarounds virtually in a whole daily basis :- )

This is part of the craft... This capture device can be very helpful if certain adaptations will be proved to be efficiently adopted. This is not B&W : )

 

It only depends on goodwill the brand has shown to fail once again for obvious business reasons;

...and talent to positively look for way outs.

Not the customary yadda yadda between fanboys and bashers. Phew.

I am just spoiled in the thermal department when it comes to compromises. My C200, 5DIV, and GH5 have performed flawlessly in the hot Florida heat and humidity no matter what I throw at them.  I can say the same for my GoPro, DJI drones, and even my timelapse camera (T6 Rebel). They have all sat in 120 degree cars between shoots or before the shoot, shot all day in the heat, and not had a single problem. They all have their limitations but they are predictable, well known, and can be easily worked around. Thermal unpredictability on the other hand is something I want no parts of no matter how good the image may be; a cell phone camera can produce a better image than a bricked one.

[BTM_Pix]

1 hour ago, Super8 said:

No it's not the firmware causing the issue.  Do you really think firmware would cause cameras to stop recording at 17minutes with an overheating icon warning and then go 21 minutes for someone else. 

Let's stop this rumor and false statement from spreading NOW.

 

Erm....yes, that is precisely what it does so there is absolutely no falsehood involved.

There is a TempStatus property in the firmware that causes the camera to react in various scaled responses.

These are :

• Normal
• Warning Indicator
• Reduced Frame Rate
• Live View Prohibited
• Shooting Prohibited
• Degraded Still Image Quality
• Restriction Of Video Recording

At some point, all of these different responses will be triggered if the temperature begins to increase.

The reason the different record times and behaviours are seen by different "testers" is that the temperature of their camera is different so different ones are being triggered at different rates but at some point they will all trigger.

This status is externally readable on the camera so Canon could easily provide the simple test tool to these "testers" to create a real structured test instead of the scattergun ad hoc ones that are happening now.

I have got no idea why Canon continue to let these unstructured random tests play out in public without doing something official about it.

The only reason I can come up with is that the noise generated by these contradictory "findings" is giving them cover while they work away in the background to remedy it.

The TempStatus pre-dates the R5/R6 and has been part of the Canon firmware for a long time and is there for a reason for that so none of this is new for them in testing so it begs the question why more seemingly wasn't done to test it in simulated real environments.

 

[Nezza]

1 minute ago, Emanuel said:

I am a filmmaker, not engineer. 

Then I'd suggest you'd be best placed not to comment on issues relating to engineering. 

There's reports now that even stills shooting causes it to overheat - nothing to do with video.

But sure, your externally mounted beard catching fan will fix all. Delusional.

[herein2020]

3 minutes ago, BTM_Pix said:

Erm....yes, that is precisely what it does so there is absolutely no falsehood involved.

There is a TempStatus property in the firmware that causes the camera to react in various scaled responses.

These are :

• Normal
• Warning Indicator
• Reduced Frame Rate
• Live View Prohibited
• Shooting Prohibited
• Degraded Still Image Quality

At some point, all of these different responses will be triggered if the temperature begins to increase.

The reason the different record times and behaviours are seen by different "testers" is that the temperature of their camera is different so different ones are being triggered at different rates but at some point they will all trigger.

This status is externally readable on the camera so Canon could easily provide the simple test tool to these "testers" to create a real structured test instead of the scattergun ad hoc ones that are happening now.

I have got no idea why Canon continue to let this unstructured random tests play out in public without doing something official about it.

The only reason I can come up with is that the noise generated by these contradictory "findings" is giving them cover while they work away in the background to remedy it.

The TempStatus pre-dates the R5/R6 and has been part of the Canon firmware for a long time and is there for a reason for that so none of this is new for them in testing so it begs the question why more seemingly wasn't done to test it in real environments.

 

I have to wonder if the pandemic did not disrupt or short circuit their normal testing process. Also, I believe there have been some recent leadership turnovers at Canon, maybe the new leadership just wasn't receptive to the feedback they were getting. Nothing about a problem this severe resembles the Canon that I thought I knew. Reliability above all else seemed to be etched into every camera they produced all the way down to the Rebel line.

[newfoundmass]

Remember how Canon flew people to a tropical island for the EOS R announcement? 

Imagine the R5 in those conditions! 😂

[Emanuel]

2 minutes ago, herein2020 said:

I am just spoiled in the thermal department when it comes to compromises. My C200, 5DIV, and GH5 have performed flawlessly in the hot Florida heat and humidity no matter what I throw at them.  I can say the same for my GoPro, DJI drones, and even my timelapse camera (T6 Rebel). They have all sat in 120 degree cars between shoots or before the shoot, shot all day in the heat, and not had a single problem. They all have their limitations but they are predictable, well known, and can be easily worked around. Thermal unpredictability on the other hand is something I want no parts of no matter how good the image may be; a cell phone camera can produce a better image than a bricked one.

I understand and fully share your concern. But:

  

1 minute ago, Nezza said:

Then I'd suggest you'd be best placed not to comment on issues relating to engineering. 

There's reports now that even stills shooting causes it to overheat - nothing to do with video.

I just don't like to see anonymous aliases to amuse themselves to bash Canon. This is not helpful. One thing is fair criticism, the other one is without previous experience with a tool starting to guess about it. If I'd have a crystal ball I'd be billionaire.

I am not engineer but I can fairly guess Tilta has high qualified engineers to design their products. They are a trustful provider. If they announce something, I'd delude myself if I would listen naysayers rather than people who help my craft.

Moreover, no one is expecting a miraculous solution. This is not all about that. And I see people without the necessary filmmaking experience in certain styles/segments of our craft to negatively/improperly infer this R5/R6 or this or that workaround won't work out. WOW Without ever testing it!

This naysayerism is absolutely inaccurate and counterproductive.

 

 

[herein2020]

3 minutes ago, Emanuel said:

I understand and fully share your concern. But:

  

I just don't like to see anonymous aliases to amuse themselves to bash Canon. This is not helpful. One thing is fair criticism, the other one is without previous experience with a tool starting to guess about it. If I'd have a crystal ball I'd be billionaire.

I am not engineer but I can fairly guess Tilta has high qualified engineers to design their products. They are a trustful provider. If they announce something, I'd delude myself if I would listen naysayers rather than people who help my craft.

Moreover, no one is expecting a miraculous solution. This is not all about that. And I see people without the necessary filmmaking experience in certain styles/segments of our craft to negatively/improperly infer this R5/R6 or this or that workaround won't work out. WOW Without ever testing it!

This naysayerism is absolutely inaccurate and counterproductive.

 

 

I agree with you there, it's just a forum and just a camera, I put out my opinions like everyone else but don't believe in the bashing or flaming that some users choose to involve themselves in, it is not constructive nor a desirable character trait.

[BTM_Pix]

26 minutes ago, herein2020 said:

I have to wonder if the pandemic did not disrupt or short circuit their normal testing process. Also, I believe there have been some recent leadership turnovers at Canon, maybe the new leadership just wasn't receptive to the feedback they were getting. 

With this test, it doesn't really need anything more than a testing oven and a wifi connection to a testing app so I don't think that is at play here.

This method is how they would, of course, have achieved the guideline figures that they initially published so it has been done at one temperature at least and it would seem implausible that they didn't then turn the oven up and do more tests.

So I would be confident that those figures at different temperatures do exist somewhere in the test department so, yes, the "story" would be where the decision to deem them acceptable was made.

Sending cameras out to YouTubers in different parts of the world to do different things with them would no doubt yield some valuable feedback for Canon on operational issues, as well as the free promotion of course, but performance testing shouldn't be part of that remit.

That needs to be done in far more structured and controlled environments by actual software testers.

[BTM_Pix]

15 minutes ago, newfoundmass said:

Remember how Canon flew people to a tropical island for the EOS R announcement? 

Imagine the R5 in those conditions! 😂

Hawaii Five Overheat

 

[Emanuel]

1 hour ago, herein2020 said:

 

(...) Tilta (...)

BTW, where is the power for that coming from? How loud will it be when recording audio? 

 

I don't understand the adapter either....so you will basically be pulling dust directly from outside of the camera and blowing it directly on the sensor, that sounds like a horrible idea. The S1H seems to be the only camera that truly gets the cooling situation and even it didn't try to do 8K, 4K120, or full sensor readout 4K60.

I am also puzzled about that as matter of fact. And curious. First question I had... How do they manage dust?

The fact our most reputable engineer among us and BTW my supplier too @BTM_Pix : ) did not drop a single word on topic speaks fairly enough to me ;- )

[Super8]

6 hour delays is not a "firmware or Canon cripple hammer feature".    Running with this information as fact and shouting from the rooftops is negative hit piece fan boy miss information.  I could repeat it 100 times on Facebook if I disliked Canon.  This is what is done and what causes camera companies to go under.   So pick your sides I guess on who you support.  I can't stand Sony because of the culture they create.  It's the CNN of journalism.  Report the news, do a good job at that, opinion pieces become a problem because people take opinion for fact.

I have seen some really great looking S1H footage this weekend.   Hope everyone is doing well in whatever part of the world you live.  Cheers.

[Super8]

49 minutes ago, BTM_Pix said:

Erm....yes, that is precisely what it does so there is absolutely no falsehood involved.

There is a TempStatus property in the firmware that causes the camera to react in various scaled responses.

These are :

• Normal
• Warning Indicator
• Reduced Frame Rate
• Live View Prohibited
• Shooting Prohibited
• Degraded Still Image Quality
• Restriction Of Video Recording

At some point, all of these different responses will be triggered if the temperature begins to increase.

The reason the different record times and behaviours are seen by different "testers" is that the temperature of their camera is different so different ones are being triggered at different rates but at some point they will all trigger.

This status is externally readable on the camera so Canon could easily provide the simple test tool to these "testers" to create a real structured test instead of the scattergun ad hoc ones that are happening now.

I have got no idea why Canon continue to let these unstructured random tests play out in public without doing something official about it.

The only reason I can come up with is that the noise generated by these contradictory "findings" is giving them cover while they work away in the background to remedy it.

The TempStatus pre-dates the R5/R6 and has been part of the Canon firmware for a long time and is there for a reason for that so none of this is new for them in testing so it begs the question why more seemingly wasn't done to test it in simulated real environments.

 

Of course.  I agree with your breakdown of Canon's tempstatus. property.   What's being reported is the R5 is not overheating by temperature but being controlled by Canon's cripple hammer software that shuts down the camera based on record times so that they protect their cine line-up.

[Emanuel]

I support myself and my craft and who helps me to pay the bills.

Read @BTM_Pix posts before you still support whatever point you've decided so...

 

PS: Ah you've finally decided then... Funny you agree with him! You remind me politicians, you'd surely succeed to be one! : D

[Emanuel]

If we will say they've succeeded to cripple their hardware without proper heat dissipation design, can we properly stand it then? LOL ;- )

[Enjay]

Funny how this issue gets so much attention, but literally nobody complains about Canon charging 10% higher netto prices in the EUR/GBP zone compared to Yen/US$. They started that with the 5D 4.

THAT is what kept me from buying the R5.

Third party lens manufacturers like Sigma or Tamron actually have lower netto prices for many lenses here, it cannot be a general thing.