RED KOMODO 6K | First Footage - WOW

[Super8]

1 hour ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

What are you talking about? The video you linked was posted in 1080p. The compression is so bad you can't tell what the ISO performance is. 

 Again dynamic range and ISO tests haven't really been done to see what kind of sensor this camera has. But yes I'd rather have a Pocket 6k if it gives more dynamic range and better ISO performance or an S1H with prores RAW. 

 

The video of the plane was shot in 6k. 

 

I'm not sure what you're getting at?  Are you trying to bring negative comments into this thread without coming out and saying how you feel?

 

 

[Super8]

1 hour ago, Coiii said:

I'm on the same boat. I was waiting months for the R5 and Canon fucked up. Then the A7SIII happened and the ONLY thing I was expecting didn't happened (cinetone). I'm done and tired of this game. I just sold my BMPCC4K  kit a few days ago and thinking to do the same with my Sony A7III kit and stuff. Just keeping my Canon L glass and save a little more for the Komodo.

I posted about the same-thing in a Canon thread.    I'm going Komodo and the Z6 with Atomos.   I'm tired of the gear wars and the fact that people can't see with their eyes anymore.  

It's like watching the football team you hate, that has the best QB in the NFL.  You hate them so much you can't acknowledge that he's got talent and is a great player.   I got over this long ago with sports. 

So far the Komodo specs and footage show me I've been waiting for the next mirrorless camera that might move closer to the cinema camera look. 

[kye]

3 hours ago, Yurolov said:

GS gives you locked off shots if you are steady, but even if there is motion it is much more organic and pleasing - yes the motion is like film. Ibis is unpredictable and you cannot rely on it for sure 100%. I know with my GS camera, the way the image looks when moved craps all over anything with ibis. It is pleasing and smooth whether i pan, walk, etc. 

I guess my point was that they're not the same.

For example, I've seen enough 8mm hand-held footage to know I don't like the hand-held motion, it just looks amateur to me.  I shoot hand-held due to the limitations of how and where I shoot, but I don't want that amateur look.  The only ways to counter that are to put it on some kind of support (which I can't do), to make the rig heavier so micro-jitters don't happen (which I can't do for where I shoot, or can't hold all day, or both), or to have some kind of optical stabilisation, like IBIS.

IBIS has its limitations and I'll be the first to admit it's not a miracle by any means, but it allows me to get non-shaky looking footage with a compact and light-weight setup, which GS does not do.

[Super8]

59 minutes ago, kye said:

I guess my point was that they're not the same.

For example, I've seen enough 8mm hand-held footage to know I don't like the hand-held motion, it just looks amateur to me.  I shoot hand-held due to the limitations of how and where I shoot, but I don't want that amateur look.  The only ways to counter that are to put it on some kind of support (which I can't do), to make the rig heavier so micro-jitters don't happen (which I can't do for where I shoot, or can't hold all day, or both), or to have some kind of optical stabilisation, like IBIS.

IBIS has its limitations and I'll be the first to admit it's not a miracle by any means, but it allows me to get non-shaky looking footage with a compact and light-weight setup, which GS does not do.

Watch Komodo global shutter footage I posted again.  It is not 8mm hand-held footage armature looking motion.

I don't think you understand what GS really is.   GS is scanning the whole sensor at the same-time.   It is not stabilization.  The shake or hand held movement you see in GS has nothing to do with GS. It's all from the camera operator.  The fact that you have a stable readout from a full scanned sensor means as the camera operator you won't cause your footage to fall apart based on your movement.........i.e.  jitters, rolling shutter, motion blur. 

Slow Rolling Shutter sensor read out is doing more to your footage then slanted fence post and micro-jitters.   Yes IBIS corrects as much as it can but it also doesn't. 

Please watch the video below. 

 

[kye]

7 hours ago, Super8 said:

Watch Komodo global shutter footage I posted again.  It is not 8mm hand-held footage armature looking motion.

I don't think you understand what GS really is.   GS is scanning the whole sensor at the same-time.   It is not stabilization.  The shake or hand held movement you see in GS has nothing to do with GS. It's all from the camera operator.  The fact that you have a stable readout from a full scanned sensor means as the camera operator you won't cause your footage to fall apart based on your movement.........i.e.  jitters, rolling shutter, motion blur. 

Slow Rolling Shutter sensor read out is doing more to your footage then slanted fence post and micro-jitters.   Yes IBIS corrects as much as it can but it also doesn't. 

Please watch the video below. 

 

I understand what rolling shutter is.

Let me explain even more clearly.  If I pick up a camera and shake it while recording, I get motion in the footage because the camera is pointing in a different direction when each frame was exposed.  This is called camera motion.  If that motion is caused by something like a smooth pan or tilt or is very gradual and smooth, then the motion will have a certain aesthetic, but if that motion is not smooth, but is very jerky with lots of small motion, then it will have a different aesthetic.

Engaging a Global Shutter so that the whole frame begins and ends it's exposure at the same time (hey look - I did know what a global shutter is!) does not negate the fact that the camera is facing a slightly different direction each time a frame was exposed.  IBIS, on the other hand, actually does negate the fact that the camera is facing a slightly different direction each time a frame was exposed, and under the right situation, will remove that motion from the footage.

I get that you dislike the aesthetic of RS, and so switching to GS "fixes" it for you, but I dislike jittery camera motion, which GS does not fix.

I'd link to a video explaining the differences between IBIS and GS in order to reflect back your level of condescension when you fail to understand what someone is saying and automatically respond by thinking you're smarter than them, but I don't think that anyone would have made a video on the topic because the differences are obvious.  Or so I thought.

[Super8]

2 hours ago, kye said:

I understand what rolling shutter is.

Let me explain even more clearly.  If I pick up a camera and shake it while recording, I get motion in the footage because the camera is pointing in a different direction when each frame was exposed.  This is called camera motion.  If that motion is caused by something like a smooth pan or tilt or is very gradual and smooth, then the motion will have a certain aesthetic, but if that motion is not smooth, but is very jerky with lots of small motion, then it will have a different aesthetic.

Engaging a Global Shutter so that the whole frame begins and ends it's exposure at the same time (hey look - I did know what a global shutter is!) does not negate the fact that the camera is facing a slightly different direction each time a frame was exposed.  IBIS, on the other hand, actually does negate the fact that the camera is facing a slightly different direction each time a frame was exposed, and under the right situation, will remove that motion from the footage.

I get that you dislike the aesthetic of RS, and so switching to GS "fixes" it for you, but I dislike jittery camera motion, which GS does not fix.

I'd link to a video explaining the differences between IBIS and GS in order to reflect back your level of condescension when you fail to understand what someone is saying and automatically respond by thinking you're smarter than them, but I don't think that anyone would have made a video on the topic because the differences are obvious.  Or so I thought.

 

I understand that you need IBIS based on your set up and how you film.  I sent you a PM.

I do not get personal with my comments or how I make them so I would expect the same from you next time. I'm just trying to help. Thanks -

[kye]

6 hours ago, Super8 said:

I understand that you need IBIS based on your set up and how you film.  I sent you a PM.

I do not get personal with my comments or how I make them so I would expect the same from you next time. I'm just trying to help. Thanks -

Replied.  Hopefully we can get a better understanding, both about GS vs IBIS and also about why people react to your posts the way they do.

So, are you buying a Komodo then?

[Super8]

9 minutes ago, kye said:

Replied.  Hopefully we can get a better understanding, both about GS vs IBIS and also about why people react to your posts the way they do.

So, are you buying a Komodo then?

We replied in a PM to continue this conversation but you call me out on the public board.  Why?

 

[Super8]

16 minutes ago, kye said:

So, are you buying a Komodo then?

You bet I will.   Mirror-less hybrid cameras don't come close enough to the image quality produced by the Komodo.  

RED has good and bad things going for it.  Image quality, color, motion are all cine quality on the Komodo.   I have a hybrid I can use when needed and they boith can share the Atomos as needed.   I also like the look of some of the Zcam cameras but they won't hold they're re-sale value after the fact.

 

[Emanuel]

Congrats Jarred!

E : -)

[herein2020]

8 hours ago, Super8 said:

 

I understand that you need IBIS based on your set up and how you film.  I sent you a PM.

I do not get personal with my comments or how I make them so I would expect the same from you next time. I'm just trying to help. Thanks -

I probably shouldn't say anything but I will...I too would prefer IBIS over GS if I had to pick. My reasoning is simple...fewer non videographers will notice slightly wavy lines in the video footage; everyone will notice jittery footage that could have been fixed by IBIS. I shoot handheld quite often when the gimbal is just too much of a hassle to lug along on parts of the shoot and I'm more likely to need the IBIS than I am to need to film fast moving action. The nice thing about IBIS as well is you can always turn it off (in most cameras) if it is not working for you. Doesn't fix rolling shutter, but it is another option with an IBIS equipped camera.

One thing I would be curious about however....is if in post it is easer to stabilize unstable IBIS footage vs shaky GS footage.  I would think it would be easier to stabilize GS footage but that's just a guess. I've never owned a camera with a GS so I have no way to test my theory.

[Super8]

48 minutes ago, herein2020 said:

I probably shouldn't say anything but I will...I too would prefer IBIS over GS if I had to pick. My reasoning is simple...fewer non videographers will notice slightly wavy lines in the video footage; everyone will notice jittery footage that could have been fixed by IBIS. I shoot handheld quite often when the gimbal is just too much of a hassle to lug along on parts of the shoot and I'm more likely to need the IBIS than I am to need to film fast moving action. The nice thing about IBIS as well is you can always turn it off (in most cameras) if it is not working for you. Doesn't fix rolling shutter, but it is another option with an IBIS equipped camera.

One thing I would be curious about however....is if in post it is easer to stabilize unstable IBIS footage vs shaky GS footage.  I would think it would be easier to stabilize GS footage but that's just a guess. I've never owned a camera with a GS so I have no way to test my theory.

It does need to be noted that global shutter does not produce a "jittery image". 

I love IBIS in the Z6.  It's amazing based on how I've used it.   Both IBIS and GS work well. 

For me it's easy to spot global shutter based on the subject background relationship.  Everything moves together the right way.  Subject to background movement is just solid.  

If you take your mirror-less camera and turn IBIS off, it will tell you how good IBIS really is. 

Global shutter is perfect for cine cameras if they get the DR worked out.

[herein2020]

1 minute ago, Super8 said:

It does need to be noted that global shutter does not produce a "jittery image". 

I love IBIS in the Z6.  It's amazing based on how I've used it.   Both IBIS and GS work well. 

For me it's easy to spot global shutter based on the subject background relationship.  Everything moves together the right way.  Subject to background movement is just solid.  

If you take your mirror-less camera and turn IBIS off, it will tell you how good IBIS really is. 

Global shutter is perfect for cine cameras if they get the DR worked out.

I think you are missing the point that myself and kye are making.....IBIS can smooth out some of the natural shakiness that comes from hand holding footage; GS cannot, just because it is a GS does not mean it can smooth out shakiness it just means that it won't be wavy when it occurs. So my point is, would I prefer nice straight lines as the camera shakes (GS), or would I prefer to eliminate the shakiness altogether (IBIS).

To further extrapolate that comparison; if I had to pick between a camera that could eliminate a lot of shakiness at the expense of wavy lines in some situations (rolling shutter) vs. one that does nothing to eliminate shakiness but has nice straight lines when making quick camera movements; I'm going to pick eliminating the shakiness (IBIS).  Just because a GS can handle fast camera movements better than a RS doesn't mean it does anything for shakiness; to me shakiness is far more perceptible to non videographers than rolling shutter distortion.

 

And yes, I am aware that after a certain level of shakiness IBIS can no longer compensate, so for the purposes of these examples I am referring to those instances where the level of shakiness is within the operating parameters of the IBIS system. Of course a GS with IBIS would be the best of both worlds but if I had to pick I'd pick IBIS over GS.

[JordanWright]

I much prefer not having IBIS in a camera. It actively turns me away from  a purchase. If i'm going to shoot handheld, its because I want the shot to be handheld and have the associated movement.

On to the Komodo. It's actually a camera that somewhat tempts me. To me the main selling point of this camera is the GS. Motion on the camera looks great. I also like the form factor, It would be cool to have a EVF that makes use of the top monitor. It looks very well built too. Red IQ isn't much of an upgrade on the competition. Red DR is very similar to cameras like the S1H & P6K, just measured differently. Colour science is very subjective but in a properly colour managed workflow it doesn't matter to much. The main things that turn me off the camera are: the slow boot time, menus and UI no 6K 50p. I think the RF mount was a good choice, it seems a lot of the competition don't have access to the mount. If I had a Komodo, I'd have my fingers crossed that the Zeiss release the Loxia lineup in RF mount.  

[Super8]

27 minutes ago, herein2020 said:

I think you are missing the point that myself and kye are making.....IBIS can smooth out some of the natural shakiness that comes from hand holding footage; GS cannot, just because it is a GS does not mean it can smooth out shakiness it just means that it won't be wavy when it occurs. So my point is, would I prefer nice straight lines as the camera shakes (GS), or would I prefer to eliminate the shakiness altogether (IBIS).

To further extrapolate that comparison; if I had to pick between a camera that could eliminate a lot of shakiness at the expense of wavy lines in some situations (rolling shutter) vs. one that does nothing to eliminate shakiness but has nice straight lines when making quick camera movements; I'm going to pick eliminating the shakiness (IBIS).  Just because a GS can handle fast camera movements better than a RS doesn't mean it does anything for shakiness; to me shakiness is far more perceptible to non videographers than rolling shutter distortion.

 

And yes, I am aware that after a certain level of shakiness IBIS can no longer compensate, so for the purposes of these examples I am referring to those instances where the level of shakiness is within the operating parameters of the IBIS system. Of course a GS with IBIS would be the best of both worlds but if I had to pick I'd pick IBIS over GS.

Look at 04:26, 04:32, 04:36, 04:55, 04:56 - these are all handheld shots.  No IBIS - No screen jitters.  No trembles.  No vibration because the camera guy couldn't hold the camera still.

Where are you getting the "if I had to pick between a camera that could eliminate a lot of shakiness"????"  Sensor scan screen shakiness is one thing.  Camera operator shakiness is another.

You and Kyle are talking about camera operator shakiness.  This is not camera related at all but is how well and camera is hand held.  Joey talks about this in the video.  The Komodo is small enough and light enough to hand hold it and get clean footage.  IBIS is also good enough to hand hold.  They can produce the same results. 

I've had to stop my cine camera guy from adding the hand held look to shoulder rigged shots.  They said "oh, you want the hand held look and preceded to add camera shake to the shot. I simply said, "just hold the camera steady and let natural movement happen. Let your body weight shift and control the camera.". 

 

 

[gatopardo]

5 hours ago, herein2020 said:

I probably shouldn't say anything but I will...I too would prefer IBIS over GS if I had to pick. My reasoning is simple...fewer non videographers will notice slightly wavy lines in the video footage; everyone will notice jittery footage that could have been fixed by IBIS. I shoot handheld quite often when the gimbal is just too much of a hassle to lug along on parts of the shoot and I'm more likely to need the IBIS than I am to need to film fast moving action. The nice thing about IBIS as well is you can always turn it off (in most cameras) if it is not working for you. Doesn't fix rolling shutter, but it is another option with an IBIS equipped camera.

One thing I would be curious about however....is if in post it is easer to stabilize unstable IBIS footage vs shaky GS footage.  I would think it would be easier to stabilize GS footage but that's just a guess. I've never owned a camera with a GS so I have no way to test my theory.

Ibis is not the only way of stabilising your footage. Lens IS , gimbal, weight, software all help also and can be done with the komodo I guess. Last gen lens is as good if not better than sony ibis imho. Depends on focal lengths though. Rolling shutter gello is har to fix. Might be impossible  sometimes. This camera removes this normally nasty effect.

[zerocool22]

 

This looks actually pretty good, 

[herein2020]

3 hours ago, gatopardo said:

Ibis is not the only way of stabilising your footage. Lens IS , gimbal, weight, software all help also and can be done with the komodo I guess. Last gen lens is as good if not better than sony ibis imho. Depends on focal lengths though. Rolling shutter gello is har to fix. Might be impossible  sometimes. This camera removes this normally nasty effect.

 

7 hours ago, Super8 said:

Where are you getting the "if I had to pick between a camera that could eliminate a lot of shakiness"????"  Sensor scan screen shakiness is one thing.  Camera operator shakiness is another.

You and Kyle are talking about camera operator shakiness.  This is not camera related at all but is how well and camera is hand held.  Joey talks about this in the video.  The Komodo is small enough and light enough to hand hold it and get clean footage.  IBIS is also good enough to hand hold.  They can produce the same results. 

 

I get it, I shoot handheld with my C200 all the time and it has no IBIS but due to it's weight I don't even notice; there's also ways to reduce rolling shutter distortion without GS (cameras with faster scan times, slower camera movements, etc.) and like I mentioned I would love a GS, but I still find IBIS more useful than a GS because for the types of projects that I work on  RS is not a problem for me but camera operator shakiness is (hand holding a GH5 I'd pick IBIS any day over a GS). With a GS but no IBIS I would have to make the GH5 heavier, use a gimbal more often, use stabilized lenses (currently my MFT lenses are 100% manual), etc.

[kye]

12 hours ago, Super8 said:

We replied in a PM to continue this conversation but you call me out on the public board.  Why?

Just closing the loop.  Threads on a forum aren't a discussion between people in a room, they're a public panel discussion where the people posting are on stage and countless people are silent in the audience unseen.  When it got personal that would have been noticed.

9 hours ago, Super8 said:

It does need to be noted that global shutter does not produce a "jittery image". 

I love IBIS in the Z6.  It's amazing based on how I've used it.   Both IBIS and GS work well. 

For me it's easy to spot global shutter based on the subject background relationship.  Everything moves together the right way.  Subject to background movement is just solid.  

If you take your mirror-less camera and turn IBIS off, it will tell you how good IBIS really is. 

Global shutter is perfect for cine cameras if they get the DR worked out.

Yes,  Global Shutter does not produce a jittery image.  It doesn't stabilise camera movement from the operator, but it doesn't create jitter either.  We got our wires crossed on that one.

I think it's about different types of shooting.  Some people choose to shoot hand-held and other people have no option.

For example, if you want to get a shot of this famous historical building in Japan:

You must first walk through the inspection station and past this sign:

and then get the shot in this situation:

If it was up to me, I'd just have a shoulder-rig and a tripod and elbow everyone else out of the way.  But that's not reality, so I play the hand I was dealt.

Plus, look at how everyone is dressed.  Photos don't tell the story, but my hands were shaking because it was freeeeeeeeeeezing!  

9 hours ago, herein2020 said:

And yes, I am aware that after a certain level of shakiness IBIS can no longer compensate, so for the purposes of these examples I am referring to those instances where the level of shakiness is within the operating parameters of the IBIS system. Of course a GS with IBIS would be the best of both worlds but if I had to pick I'd pick IBIS over GS.

and it's about what you prefer aesthetically as well.  I've noticed that lots of cinematographers don't mind hand-shake, but it's objectionable to me.

When I'm watching footage I'm guided by the camera movement.  So much of film-making is intentioned.  What I hear when the camera is moving around a lot is the cinematographer saying to me "look over here, oh wait hang on look here instead, no, over here again, oops someone bumped me, gee it's cold here, can we end this take now please?".  The saying is that camera movement should be motivated, but I think the saying should be interpreted to be "camera movement is controlling the perception of the viewer" and I don't particularly like having my perception moving around like that, as if I'm drunk or on drugs or have ADHD etc.  I guess it's art, and art is in the eye of the beholder.  

I suspect that cinematographers who like hand-held movement don't see what I see.

8 hours ago, JordanWright said:

I much prefer not having IBIS in a camera. It actively turns me away from  a purchase. If i'm going to shoot handheld, its because I want the shot to be handheld and have the associated movement.

If I could get away from shooting hand-held then I would, but it's not always an option.  IBIS is a counter-measure, not a solution.  I'd prefer to not need it too.

4 hours ago, gatopardo said:

Ibis is not the only way of stabilising your footage. Lens IS , gimbal, weight, software all help also and can be done with the komodo I guess. Last gen lens is as good if not better than sony ibis imho. Depends on focal lengths though. Rolling shutter gello is har to fix. Might be impossible  sometimes. This camera removes this normally nasty effect.

What do you mean by "last gen lens"?  Do you mean OIS?  If so, yes, some OIS can be excellent.

I agree that rolling shutter jello can be hard to fix, stabilisation seems to be common in NLEs but RS compensation (either as part of stabilisation or just RS of movement in the frame) isn't, and even then, it's putting a band-aid on a wound you're better off not having in your footage in the first place.

[tweak]

New Jinni.Tech video up on Youtube... 😐