Gerald Undone - EOS R5 & EOS R6 Excellent Review

[herein2020]

Gerald Undone has done it again, incredible review of the R5 and R6. I am also so glad someone finally pointed out that you cannot do backup recording with either camera and that record limits in 2020 are stupid...so many people seem to not care about those things. He also reached the same conclusions that I reached......they aren't true hybrid cameras without an external monitor.

 

A surprising finding though was that the DR isn't any better than my 6yr old 5DIV.

 

https://youtu.be/qDXPiu3wpBs

 

[Yurolov]

7 minutes ago, herein2020 said:

Gerald Undone has done it again, incredible review of the R5 and R6. I am also so glad someone finally pointed out that you cannot do backup recording with either camera and that record limits in 2020 are stupid...so many people seem to not care about those things. He also reached the same conclusions that I reached......they aren't true hybrid cameras without an external monitor.

 

A surprising finding though was that the DR isn't any better than my 6yr old 5DIV.

 

https://youtu.be/qDXPiu3wpBs

 

his heating times have now been proven to be off. 

I wouldn't put too much faith in the dr results with these kinds of tests either as they are crude. and don't account for a lot of variables 

I think he was too kind to these cameras which should have been pilloried, but i understand that he does not want to break relationships.

He likely got the cameras early cause of the glowing reviews of the c300 and c500.  

[herein2020]

4 minutes ago, Yurolov said:

his heating times have now been proven to be off. 

I wouldn't put too much faith in the dr results with these kinds of tests either as they are crude. and don't account for a lot of variables 

I think he was too kind to these cameras which should have been pilloried, but i understand that he does not want to break relationships.

He likely got the cameras early cause of the glowing reviews of the c300 and c500.  

They are still unfit for my purposes but I am glad he mentioned some limitations that almost no reviewers are discussing like the card recording and record limits. I feel like he gave Canon a bit too much of a pass as well but like you said...vendors are not going to give reviewers products if they know they will be completely slammed by those reviewers.

 

IMO the R5 and R6 are more than just a marketing fail...they are an actual failure of epic proportions that may not get fixed unless buyers keep voting with their wallets and exiting to Sony in droves. Every buyer of the R5 and R6 are just a vote in Canon's favor letting them know their grand bait and switch strategy worked.

[UncleBobsPhotography]

1 hour ago, herein2020 said:

A surprising finding though was that the DR isn't any better than my 6yr old 5DIV.

The 5DIV went on sale 25. august 2016. That's 6 short years. And by DR I assume you mean dynamic range in clog 1? Since this forum focuses on video it makes sense to mention the clog 1 DR, but tests have shown that the camera is capable of considerably better DR than previous Canon cameras in stills mode (and possibly Clog 3 in the future) and claiming that the R5 has no better DR than the 5DIV is taking things out of context.

These kind of inaccurate statements makes it easy to ignore user completely even though he/she might have other valuable information.

[David Bowgett]

1 hour ago, herein2020 said:

They are still unfit for my purposes but I am glad he mentioned some limitations that almost no reviewers are discussing like the card recording and record limits. I feel like he gave Canon a bit too much of a pass as well but like you said...vendors are not going to give reviewers products if they know they will be completely slammed by those reviewers.

 

IMO the R5 and R6 are more than just a marketing fail...they are an actual failure of epic proportions that may not get fixed unless buyers keep voting with their wallets and exiting to Sony in droves. Every buyer of the R5 and R6 are just a vote in Canon's favor letting them know their grand bait and switch strategy worked.

Why Sony specifically? I think buying Fujifilm, Nikon or Panasonic would send the message just as well.

[herein2020]

5 minutes ago, David Bowgett said:

Why Sony specifically? I think buying Fujifilm, Nikon or Panasonic would send the message just as well.

That is true, I just think Sony is the main destination system for Canon users. Any exodus would get Canon's attention; Sony in particular though seems to be stealing both photography and video shooters from Canon. Panasonic is mainly video shooters, Nikon shooters probably never left Nikon (and lately I get the feeling Nikon may go the way of Olympus but maybe that's just me), and Fuji seems to be more of a niche. 

Sony in particular is the one that came from behind and keeps giving user's what they want in both the photography and video world despite the fact that they have a cinema line as well.

 

[herein2020]

44 minutes ago, UncleBobsPhotography said:

The 5DIV went on sale 25. august 2016. That's 6 short years. And by DR I assume you mean dynamic range in clog 1? Since this forum focuses on video it makes sense to mention the clog 1 DR, but tests have shown that the camera is capable of considerably better DR than previous Canon cameras in stills mode (and possibly Clog 3 in the future) and claiming that the R5 has no better DR than the 5DIV is taking things out of context.

These kind of inaccurate statements makes it easy to ignore user completely even though he/she might have other valuable information.

Ok so I guessed at how long I've had my 5DIV, I guess from now on I should go look at my purchase receipt and scan that in to ensure I am more precise.  We are talking about video here and until Canon provides CLOG3 for the R5 the DR statement is still accurate, but yes the context was video and the current R5's CLOG implementation. You are free to ignore whoever you want, it wouldn't affect me in the slightest either way.

[Kisaha]

5 hours ago, herein2020 said:

That is true, I just think Sony is the main destination system for Canon users. Any exodus would get Canon's attention; Sony in particular though seems to be stealing both photography and video shooters from Canon. Panasonic is mainly video shooters, Nikon shooters probably never left Nikon (and lately I get the feeling Nikon may go the way of Olympus but maybe that's just me), and Fuji seems to be more of a niche. 

Sony in particular is the one that came from behind and keeps giving user's what they want in both the photography and video world despite the fact that they have a cinema line as well.

 

What?! that is so untrue! you still can NOT buy any 10bit A7, a6xxx camera if you go tmrow in the shops.

and what Sony was giving? the overheating and bad ergonomics, no touch screen implementation, bad batteries and terrible menu systems are notorious in the Sony line up for so many years!

Finally they just made a great hybrid, A7sIII, only that is not a hybrid, but a video mirrorless! 

Seriously, it is the first Sony I consider buying, but it is mainly a video camera, not a hybrid, but it offers a logical menu system, full touch screen implementation, good battery life, ergonomics better than before - probably still not as good as others, but we will see. These are normal for other brands for at least 4-5 years now. Sony was just making mirrorless cameras while Canonikon were sleeping, and Samsung was quiting.

R5 and R6 will be super hits.

[Danyyyel]

 

Do people think that Sony or even Panasonic will stay in this market for long. Just look at the graph, do you think giant company like Sony are going to stick to like (I read somewhere) 5% or less for a side business that is going even further down. My guess in Max 5 years Sony and Panasonic will have moved from the MILC market, while the historic camera manufacturers will still continue into a post digital era camera market. Which will comprise of enthusiast and professional that will renew their camera every 3 to 5 years.

[Andrew Reid]

These are unit sales right?

Unit sales do not tell you about profit or margin. You can sell a smaller quantity of more expensive high margin cameras.

There is a lot of money left in the camera industry.

If a couple of soulless corporations leave, then I won't shed many tears to be quite honest. They have put shareholder profits over cameras at every opportunity.

And if the quality of images from the Huawei P40 Pro does suggest the camera industry is heading back to making tools for a niche of artists and professionals.

I'm fine with that to be honest.

Sigma, Fuji, Panasonic... the thinking man's cameras.

[herein2020]

1 hour ago, Kisaha said:

What?! that is so untrue! you still can NOT buy any 10bit A7, a6xxx camera if you go tmrow in the shops.

and what Sony was giving? the overheating and bad ergonomics, no touch screen implementation, bad batteries and terrible menu systems are notorious in the Sony line up for so many years!

Finally they just made a great hybrid, A7sIII, only that is not a hybrid, but a video mirrorless! 

Seriously, it is the first Sony I consider buying, but it is mainly a video camera, not a hybrid, but it offers a logical menu system, full touch screen implementation, good battery life, ergonomics better than before - probably still not as good as others, but we will see. These are normal for other brands for at least 4-5 years now. Sony was just making mirrorless cameras while Canonikon were sleeping, and Samsung was quiting.

R5 and R6 will be super hits.

You are looking at tech specs and actual operating performance, not the reality. The reality is that Canon fell way behind in the mirrorless segment and took both Nikon and Canon by surprise. Especially when it comes to mirrorless video Canon had no real answer until the R5 and R6 and look how they are turning out. Personally I doubt I will ever buy a Sony and I dislike everything about their products but I still think if it weren't for Sony Canon would have been perfectly happy to keep selling 30 different DSLR models, severely crippling each one in some iexplicable way and the EOS R, RP, R5 and R6 wouldn't exist today.

 

52 minutes ago, Danyyyel said:

 

Do people think that Sony or even Panasonic will stay in this market for long. Just look at the graph, do you think giant company like Sony are going to stick to like (I read somewhere) 5% or less for a side business that is going even further down. My guess in Max 5 years Sony and Panasonic will have moved from the MILC market, while the historic camera manufacturers will still continue into a post digital era camera market. Which will comprise of enthusiast and professional that will renew their camera every 3 to 5 years.

I've been saying that for awhile....Sony is an opportunist,  they saw a mirrorless opportunity and they took it. If the competition with Canon becomes too severe I feel they would have no problems moving on. I also think Nikon may not recover from this one....between cell phones, Canon, the pandemic, and Sony I think Nikon is on the way out.  I truly hope Panasonic sticks around, if they had just done something about their AF back in the GH4 days they would be a lot better off; one problem they have though is that they just like Nikon gets their sensors from Sony so they are kind of stuck with whatever Sony decides to develop.

[Yurolov]

21 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

Sigma

I hope sigma don't get swallowed up. They are making cameras with soul and passion, and at least trying something new and innovative. 

[herein2020]

22 minutes ago, Yurolov said:

I hope sigma don't get swallowed up. They are making cameras with soul and passion, and at least trying something new and innovative. 

Is anyone buying Sigma? I don't feel like they have a chance in making a dent in the current market conditions. I have never seen them in any camera store or local retailer, maybe they are having better luck overseas. Fuji is in the same boat, the only way you an buy a Fuji around here is online, even Panasonic is a rare find in any local store. Every display case around here is filled with Canon, Sony, and Nikon.

The reason I am mentioning retailers is because to be successful they need to sell a ton of lower end cameras to impulse buyers who typically buy at local retailers, just selling to pros online is not a way to be successful in the camera market, in my opinion.

[Robert Collins]

2 hours ago, Danyyyel said:

 

Do people think that Sony or even Panasonic will stay in this market for long. Just look at the graph, do you think giant company like Sony are going to stick to like (I read somewhere) 5% or less for a side business that is going even further down. My guess in Max 5 years Sony and Panasonic will have moved from the MILC market, while the historic camera manufacturers will still continue into a post digital era camera market. Which will comprise of enthusiast and professional that will renew their camera every 3 to 5 years.

Sony is not really in the business of selling 'cameras' but 'image sensors' - a business they dominate and until recently couldnt make enough of (smartphones now often have 5 image sensors when 10 years ago they had 1 or 2.)

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-12-23/sony-can-t-make-image-sensors-fast-enough-to-keep-up-with-demand

The camera business is simply a halo product for this business where they can show off their latest tech and be at the forefront of this business. The camera business doesnt really have to make money itself if it is promoting their image sensor business. Their strategy has been incredibly successful judging from their share price....

....in marked contrast with someone like Canon....

So I dont think Sony's camera business will be disappearing anytime soon....

[Super8]

Canon and Nikon are in retailers with sub $800 cameras and camera bundles.  This includes wholesale clubs.  Does this help Nikon and Canon survive the turn down in sales?

[Yurolov]

1 hour ago, Robert Collins said:

Sony is not really in the business of selling 'cameras' but 'image sensors' - a business they dominate and until recently couldnt make enough of (smartphones now often have 5 image sensors when 10 years ago they had 1 or 2.)

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-12-23/sony-can-t-make-image-sensors-fast-enough-to-keep-up-with-demand

The camera business is simply a halo product for this business where they can show off their latest tech and be at the forefront of this business. The camera business doesnt really have to make money itself if it is promoting their image sensor business. Their strategy has been incredibly successful judging from their share price....

....in marked contrast with someone like Canon....

So I dont think Sony's camera business will be disappearing anytime soon....

If their camera division is not successful they will - just like with their laptops. Their is an argument to be made that the old camera companies will stay in the game longer out of a sense of Japanese obligation but you can see even olympus relented.

http://www.koreaninvestors.com/?p=9564

Meanwhile samsung is narrowing the gap to sony in cmos market share.

And samsung continues expanding imaging as well: https://petapixel.com/2020/06/01/samsung-is-ramping-up-image-sensor-production-again/

Samsung had the best sensors in the nx1 but bailed because they saw the writing on the wall. I wouldn't bet against them here. 

 

[MrSMW]

6 hours ago, herein2020 said:

Is anyone buying Sigma?

Camera, singular. About 10 people worldwide...but their lenses, 10’s of thousands.

[herein2020]

7 hours ago, Super8 said:

Canon and Nikon are in retailers with sub $800 cameras and camera bundles.  This includes wholesale clubs.  Does this help Nikon and Canon survive the turn down in sales?

I think it will depend on the profit margins for those products. If they keep reusing sensors and tech across bodies and manage to keep the margins high enough they could be profitable given enough volume.  Canon and Nikon's strategy has typically been to flood the market with 'starter' cameras (Rebel series) then if the customer started getting serious about photography get them to move up to a more professional line (7D, 5D, 1D).  The problem is the world is moving past photography and into video and as it does, neither Canon or Nikon adjusted as fast as Sony did. Sony saw a gap in their lineup and went for it. 

 

And apparently it is working for them....at least for now. This is why I say Sony is Canon's biggest problem. Also, even though people downplayed the news that Sony inked a deal with AP News, I think it is a big deal because it shows Sony is very aggressive and finding new ways to move upmarket vs trying to sell in volume at the retailers to buyers who would prefer their smartphones whereas it seems like Canon and Nikon are trying to survive by continuing to do more of the same.

 

https://sonymirrorlesspro.com/sonys-camera-division-is-profitable/#:~:text=Sony%27s%202018%20fiscal%20year%20(2018FY,loss%20due%20to%20currency%20conversion.

[BTM_Pix]

4 hours ago, MrSMW said:

Camera, singular. About 10 people worldwide

Ah but all 10 of us are trotting around in the bright sunshine shooting internal RAW without oven mitts, ice cubes, fans, thermometers and stopwatches.

So, swings and roundabouts 😉 

[herein2020]

1 hour ago, BTM_Pix said:

Ah but all 10 of us are trotting around in the bright sunshine shooting internal RAW without oven mitts, ice cubes, fans, thermometers and stopwatches.

So, swings and roundabouts 😉 

To me the Sigma cameras just seem too small to be comfortable, they use the L mount lenses which is yet another system I would have to buy into, and they don't do 4K60FPS which I use literally all the time in my GH5 for speed ramps and gimbal work.  I have a sigma 18-35mm for my C200 and a Sigma 50mm for my 5DIV; both lenses are fantastic (although the 18-35 is noisier than I would prefer)  but I've never considered their cameras worth investigating.