Gerald Undone - EOS R5 & EOS R6 Excellent Review

[BTM_Pix]

15 minutes ago, herein2020 said:

To me the Sigma cameras just seem too small to be comfortable, they use the L mount lenses which is yet another system I would have to buy into, and they don't do 4K60FPS which I use literally all the time in my GH5 for speed ramps and gimbal work.  I have a sigma 18-35mm for my C200 and a Sigma 50mm for my 5DIV; both lenses are fantastic (although the 18-35 is noisier than I would prefer)  but I've never considered their cameras worth investigating.

It was a comment about the cooling system of the camera so I wasn't actually advocating it as an alternative for anyone let alone everyone as people's needs are different.

If 4K60 is an absolute requirement for you then that is game over when it comes to the fP, although I wouldn't rule anything out with Sigma when it comes to firmware updates as it already does 12bit RAW at 100fps in HD mode in Full Frame so they would be able to do 4K60 in its APS-C mode which would then exceed the GH5's smaller sensor and of course would be 12bit RAW rather than 8 bit 4:2:0.

With regard to the size of it, it can be built up to whatever size is needed so, for some people such as myself, that is an advantage as you can't make a bigger camera smaller.

As for L mount, again, its not a particular disadvantage because there are electronic adapters for EF mount and as it is one of the shallowest mounts you can get then it can be adapted to take even more lenses than the MFT mount (such as Leica M lenses) and obviously consequentially more than EF mount cameras where the particular achilles heal is its inability to take most PL mount lenses.

So, its not for everyone, but for anyone that does need a modular full frame camera that can mount any lens you care to mention on it, shoots 12bit RAW to sub £100 media, can shoot BRAW externally, is less than half the price of the two cameras du jour on here and doesn't overheat, I'd give it a cautious recommendation to be on their shortlist.

The lack of a tilting screen or EVF is wank though.

 

[herein2020]

7 minutes ago, BTM_Pix said:

It was a comment about the cooling system of the camera so I wasn't actually advocating it as an alternative for anyone let alone everyone as people's needs are different.

If 4K60 is an absolute requirement for you then that is game over when it comes to the fP, although I wouldn't rule anything out with Sigma when it comes to firmware updates as it already does 12bit RAW at 100fps in HD mode in Full Frame so they would be able to do 4K60 in its APS-C mode which would then exceed the GH5's smaller sensor and of course would be 12bit RAW rather than 8 bit 4:2:0.

With regard to the size of it, it can be built up to whatever size is needed so, for some people such as myself, that is an advantage as you can't make a bigger camera smaller.

As for L mount, again, its not a particular disadvantage because there are electronic adapters for EF mount and as it is one of the shallowest mounts you can get then it can be adapted to take even more lenses than the MFT mount (such as Leica M lenses) and obviously consequentially more than EF mount cameras where the particular achilles heal is its inability to take most PL mount lenses.

So, its not for everyone, but for anyone that does need a modular full frame camera that can mount any lens you care to mention on it, shoots 12bit RAW to sub £100 media, can shoot BRAW externally, is less than half the price of the two cameras du jour on here and doesn't overheat, I'd give it a cautious recommendation to be on their shortlist.

The lack of a tilting screen or EVF is wank though.

 

I love the specs on them and the fact they were able to keep it cool in such a small body should really make Canon take notice; I guess I just love the Canon ecosystem so much that I keep hoping something will make them get their act together. In the meantime my current setup works well enough for me that I don't foresee myself buying anything new anytime soon. It is ironic though, the Sigma has better specs than even the rumored Canon Komodo form factor it really speaks volumes to just how restrictive Canon really is.

 

I agree with you, if they implemented 4K60 even with a crop that would make it more attractive....the fixed back screen does suck though, I love my GH5's screen.

[MrSMW]

1 hour ago, BTM_Pix said:

Ah but all 10 of us are trotting around in the bright sunshine shooting internal RAW without oven mitts, ice cubes, fans, thermometers and stopwatches.

So, swings and roundabouts 😉 

11 users then 😘

But seriously, I do like the concept but as it is for so many, the reality doesn’t meet the wants or needs of most.

I seriously hope they do bring out a 2 model and fix the; 4K 60p internal, AF and tilt screen...and had the current one met that spec, I’d already have one!

[BTM_Pix]

27 minutes ago, MrSMW said:

11 users then 😘

But seriously, I do like the concept but as it is for so many, the reality doesn’t meet the wants or needs of most.

I seriously hope they do bring out a 2 model and fix the; 4K 60p internal, AF and tilt screen...and had the current one met that spec, I’d already have one!

Well it doesn't fully meet the needs or wants of the eleven of us either 😉 

For me personally, if I can then add those missing things then I'm OK with that because the moral of the tale of the last however many years with hybrids is that the only perfect camera is actually two cameras.

I can add the missing pieces of stabilisation and screen myself so I'm more inclined to look at what I couldn't add myself which in this case is a full frame sensor, smallest possible size, heat management, the shallowest possible mount and 12bit uncompressed RAW.

Its that baseline of the fP that is the most important to me.

 

[MrSMW]

@BTM_Pix I am also of the opinion that we are still possibly in the time of 2 cameras for 2 different purposes.

If the R5 did not have the issues it has or if the A7Siii had say 20mp or if the S1/H had PAF, then maybe we'd have the first true zero compromise hybrids, but IMO, there is at least one factor in all of them that doesn't work for me anyway.

OK, there's always still a compromise somewhere, even if for some it might be price or any other factor.

XH2 and Z6s have the next shot at the title each and maybe one or both of them will pull it off. Or maybe neither will.

Based on all the offerings either currently or imminently available, for me that might be those 2 different cameras, - a pairing of A7Siii for video duty and A7iii regular flavour for stills. And I'm not the world's biggest Canon fan!

I would love love love Sigma to make an FP2 that was a genuine hybrid and I could consider.

[BTM_Pix]

33 minutes ago, MrSMW said:

@BTM_Pix I am also of the opinion that we are still possibly in the time of 2 cameras for 2 different purposes.

I think the love that dare not speak its name regarding a genuine hybrid is that we won't get there until we have  cameras with internal variable NDs.

The fact that in the vast majority of lighting situations you need an amount of ND to make the video exposure and none to do the still exposure in the same light is something that needs to be addressed before we can say we've achieved it.

Obviously, I'm aware that some people will leave a level of ND on that would give them a compromise shutter speed of say 1/100th or 1/250th for both so that they could have a bearable speed for stills and a bearable degree of crossing of the 180 degree rule for video but it will only ever be a compromise.

From my point of view, particularly with variable NDs, if it doesn't genuinely need to be on for the correct stills exposure then I wouldn't really want the side effects of colour casts if I could help it.

Because of this I'd say the only "real" hybrid I've got in my camera collection is the lowly Panasonic FZ2000 because it has an internal 2-6 stop ND filter (as well as "clear") which is operated by a physical selector switch, meaning that even in bright sunlight it can be switched from a "real" stills camera to a "real" video camera instantly.

Everything else I've got is a stills camera that can shoot video or a video camera that can shoot stills but not without what I would technically refer to as "some dicking about".

Canon kind of maybe sort of offer this with the R cameras with that ND adapter but it does limit you to using EF lenses and does mean that if you wanted no ND you'd have to pop the clear filter in.

Sony are the ones who could do it of course but while they are stuck in that A7 form factor they've got no space or inclination to do it.

[Video Hummus]

Why didn’t Sigma make the fP just a little bit bigger with the same awesome heatsink design.

Even better, why not a totally modular camera with connection pins to a powered PCI Express Bus on all sides for accessories to build out as you please. Just have a built in EVF.

• Make the external screen an accessory that flips and flops however people want it. Mount it on the top, bottom, side. 
• Other accessories could be on-board light, a battery and SSD media mod “grip” that attaches to the bottom that provides extra power and a NVME M.2 SSD slot for recording to SSD. The options are endless.
• a plug-able sensor modular that allows you to swap out sensors. Including upgrading your sensor in the future. In addition they could release “toy” sensor modules like super16 for fun and profit for people that want to play around with retro looks and stuff.

So basically design a camera body with as much cooling and horsepower as possible and let people build their camera the way they want.

The ecosystem would explode around it.

Sigma, I’m available for consult. Send me an DM!.

[MrSMW]

24 minutes ago, Video Hummus said:

So basically design a camera body with as much cooling and horsepower as possible and let people build their camera the way they want.

Indeed. It’s like the entire industry has been in stagnation for years stuck around certain body types when modular just makes sense.

I suspect because the FP has not been a massive success, the rest have either breathed a sigh of relief or said, “told you it would never work”, but I rather hope the rest did take note and are working on it.

I’d like to see the 4/6/8k and megapixel arms race exchanged for a ‘who can build the most modular’ with a core real world spec.

Plug in cooling, plug in SSD of your size choice, plug in battery of your size choice, grip size and type of your choice, plug in screen type of your choice, plug in cooling...

The FP is just a first attempt and if Sigma are not working night and day on a second model, well both their and our loss.

They nearly had my money, but too many compromises.

Panasonic, Nikon and Canon nearly did.

Sony still might, or any of the previous or maybe Fuji will pull a blinder with the XH2.

But FFS will someone just do it ASAP.

[BTM_Pix]

Ricoh did a modular system called the GXR over a decade ago where you could swap out lenses with integrated sensors or have a fixed sensor with interchangeable lenses and of course a shoe mounted EVF.

The mad bastards.

[MrSMW]

Obviously the world wasn’t ready...

It is now!

I can’t believe I never heard of this before...

Even more so, I can’t believe it obviously failed at some point and did not transform the industry ☹️

[hoodlum]

32 minutes ago, MrSMW said:

Obviously the world wasn’t ready...

It is now!

I can’t believe I never heard of this before...

Even more so, I can’t believe it obviously failed at some point and did not transform the industry ☹️

The problem was that sensors were advancing at at much greater pace when the GXR was available and that meant you needed to replace the whole sensor/lens module for improved IQ.  This might have worked better over the past 5 years due to lack of sensor development, although now it is too late to start something like this.

[Video Hummus]

That Ricoh GXR is exactly want I’m talking about but built around the latest PCI Express bus protocol and in a bigger camera body. 

[UncleBobsPhotography]

To make it truly modular, it should be easy to use 3rd party solutions for each module. The way the GXR is modular is just a gimmick in my opinion.

[Beritar]

On 8/6/2020 at 3:31 PM, herein2020 said:

Gerald Undone has done it again, incredible review of the R5 and R6. I am also so glad someone finally pointed out that you cannot do backup recording with either camera and that record limits in 2020 are stupid...so many people seem to not care about those things. He also reached the same conclusions that I reached......they aren't true hybrid cameras without an external monitor.

 

A surprising finding though was that the DR isn't any better than my 6yr old 5DIV.

 

https://youtu.be/qDXPiu3wpBs

 

I like to watch his videos, but sometimes I think there is a serious issue with his reviews and conclusions. He said the Sigma 18-35 was better than the Leica 10-25mm for autofocus. I had both and the Leica CAF is way better, no comparison. Also, I found very strange than the A7SIII was sharper than the A7III in 4K on his review. 

[Danyyyel]

On 8/7/2020 at 5:17 AM, Robert Collins said:

Sony is not really in the business of selling 'cameras' but 'image sensors' - a business they dominate and until recently couldnt make enough of (smartphones now often have 5 image sensors when 10 years ago they had 1 or 2.)

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-12-23/sony-can-t-make-image-sensors-fast-enough-to-keep-up-with-demand

The camera business is simply a halo product for this business where they can show off their latest tech and be at the forefront of this business. The camera business doesnt really have to make money itself if it is promoting their image sensor business. Their strategy has been incredibly successful judging from their share price....

 

....in marked contrast with someone like Canon....

 

So I dont think Sony's camera business will be disappearing anytime soon....

You know how having a camera business makes Sony sensor business much harder. I am sure they have to go through all types of loops, NDA and contracts to make sure not to loose business. Sony camera business is like 4% of the overall Sony revenue while the Sensor business is like 19% from last I saw. One they are in an ever diminishing market and the other a leader in an ever bigger one. I don't see Sony staying beyond five years in the camera business.

While Nikon camera account for 30%+ of its revenue and what many don't know of one of Japan biggest Mitsubishi Keiretsu with one of its main shareholder the biggest bank in Japan. Another thing imbeciles (not you I am saying) on youtube etc don't know, Nikon has still been profitable until Covid19. It's profits fell but R&D rose a lot during the last 2 years and I think it is obvious with the Z camera and nearly 15-16 lens in 2 years, and stellar ones at it. In 5 years I see Canon, Nikon and perhaps Fuji, 3 historical players in the photo business. Big corporation don't keep under-performing business for long, more so with a big recession post Covid19.