EOSHD testing finds Canon EOS R5 overheating to be fake

[BTM_Pix]

33 minutes ago, baker21 said:

You get the temperature reading from the Api but there's alot more components than just that temperature  reading. 

No it doesn't.

It reads the temperature status from the API.

This is an entirely different thing to the temperature as a value, which is being read from the EXIF in the exposed image.

The temperature status is the camera's own interpretation of its internal temperature with relation to what restrictions it will apply to camera operations. 

When this is "normal" everything is, well, "normal" and the camera is reporting that there is no cause for alarm or any restrictions.

It then goes through an escalation process of different inhibitors including, amongst other things, restricting fps, reducing image quality and prohibiting recording.

There is no interpretation other than by Canon of that status as it is being reported through the API.

The temperature in the exif is being used as a comparative indicator of what the actual internal temperature (or one of them) is and provides a visual reference (as it is pointed at the screen of the app) to cross reference which inhibitors are activated and deactivated as time progresses.

The rate at which the camera is commanded to take an image is variable so I'd probably stay tuned for a few more tests at different rates.

[Allan Castle]

DPreview just deleted my post.  I linked to this article this morning.  It got several quick replies.  Most negative, saying that Eoshd was not legitimate, people liked the camera and did not care about video, etc.  Nobody said, let's test more and see what the real truth is about the overheating.

I just checked and now the post gone and all the replies.  I guess censorship is alive. 

People should be able to buy any camera they want, but also be able to see all the reviews, opinions, tests, etc. to see if the camera is right for them.  Perhaps dpreview is worried negative press will  hurt their advertising from Canon and affiliate sales, etc.

[inv3ctiv3]

14 minutes ago, Allan Castle said:

DPreview just deleted my post.  I linked to this article this morning.  It got several quick replies.  Most negative, saying that Eoshd was not legitimate, people liked the camera and did not care about video, etc.  Nobody said, let's test more and see what the real truth is about the overheating.

I just checked and now the post gone and all the replies.  I guess censorship is alive. 

People should be able to buy any camera they want, but also be able to see all the reviews, opinions, tests, etc. to see if the camera is right for them.  Perhaps dpreview is worried negative press will  hurt their advertising from Canon and affiliate sales, etc.

I have tried posting in this thread but it always says it needs to be approved by a mod....I have the opposite experience and bought the camera the day it was available for preorder and got it right as it came out, I have since shot every single day with it and obviously the first things I tried were all the features we all want to use. I brought it along for a MTB shoot and filmed in nothing but 4k HQ, 4k 120, 8k raw and 12FPS and not once did it overheat or shut down. It was well over 80 degrees and it was in a black backpack as we were riding for 2.5 hours stopping to shoot as we went. I think people should wait and see what actually happens not just watch youtubers trying to make them overheat, I am beyond stoked on the camera and can't wait to shoot even more on it.

[horshack]

2 hours ago, Video Hummus said:

 

We can safety rule out the sensor heat as being the main culprit if people are able to record 4KHQ externally for hours on end.

It is either something going on with the CFExpress cards getting to hot or some kind of timer that is started when they are inserted.

The fact that the camera power cycles when the memory or battery doors open may be a hint that that may be the case.

Please keep testing @Andrew Reid and @mechanicalEYE very helpful for people. 

It's more likely to be DIGIC than CFE. External recording bypasses the entire video compression path, which is very computation and data-intensive (ie, generates a lot of heat). Plus the camera can recorder indefinitely to CFE in 4KLQ.

[Andrew Reid]

1 minute ago, inv3ctiv3 said:

I have tried posting in this thread but it always says it needs to be approved by a mod....I have the opposite experience and bought the camera the day it was available for preorder and got it right as it came out, I have since shot every single day with it and obviously the first things I tried were all the features we all want to use. I brought it along for a MTB shoot and filmed in nothing but 4k HQ, 4k 120, 8k raw and 12FPS and not once did it overheat or shut down. It was well over 80 degrees and it was in a black backpack as we were riding for 2.5 hours stopping to shoot as we went. I think people should wait and see what actually happens not just watch youtubers trying to make them overheat, I am beyond stoked on the camera and can't wait to shoot even more on it.

Great good for you! Do us a favour and read what I find when I use it.

I feel you have your blinkers on.

We don't all just turn the camera on for a few seconds at a time.

1 minute ago, horshack said:

It's more likely to be DIGIC than CFE. External recording bypasses the entire video compression path, which is very computation and data-intensive (ie, generates a lot of heat).

Do us a favour and realise that the camera overheats in the menus or just doing stills in live-view.

Overheats as far as a complete shut down once you go over into video mode.

But yes... Video compression blah blah blah, data intensive blah blah.

[Andrew Reid]

22 minutes ago, Allan Castle said:

DPreview just deleted my post.  I linked to this article this morning.  It got several quick replies.  Most negative, saying that Eoshd was not legitimate, people liked the camera and did not care about video, etc.  Nobody said, let's test more and see what the real truth is about the overheating.

Ah the good old EOSHD is not legitimate campaign.

I wouldn't be surprised if 90% of it was bot generated.

Quote

I just checked and now the post gone and all the replies.  I guess censorship is alive.

DPReview still up their tricks hey?

Quote

People should be able to buy any camera they want, but also be able to see all the reviews, opinions, tests, etc. to see if the camera is right for them.  Perhaps dpreview is worried negative press will  hurt their advertising from Canon and affiliate sales, etc.

Yeah, probably a reason they haven't run a clickbait article based on our findings yet with a tiny little 'Source' link at the bottom.

[Andrew Reid]

6 hours ago, Brian Flint said:

I would agree with this. If very cold ( or fairly cold ) air could be forced into the Memory card area ( Memory cards are removed ) some this cold air should flow past the CPU. My experience ( as an engineer ) is that even a slight amount of moving air across the top surface of a chip ( cpu in this case ) will have a significant cooling effect. 

It doesn't need it. You should just be able to turn it off and the extremely thin slice of silicon & metal will cool down by itself from whatever it couldn't handle... Supposably 90C... To ambient temp or a comfortable for any CPU 45C... In less than a minute, if not even quicker, we're talking a few seconds to go from 90 to 60.

Anyone have a PC?

Open the CPU temp monitor and see how fast the temps fall once you stop rendering video in an NLE.

And they fall even faster if you pull the power completely.

[horshack]

33 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

Do us a favour and realise that the camera overheats in the menus or just doing stills in live-view.

Overheats as far as a complete shut down once you go over into video mode.

But yes... Video compression blah blah blah, data intensive blah blah.

I have not seen any reports of the camera overheating to the point of shutting down from navigating within the menus or shooting stills. I have seen reports of the cumulative heat from those activities exhausting the video-recording heat budget. The camera can continue to provide video over HDMI during that period so I'm not seeing anything in your comment which refutes how video compression through DIGIC isn't a factor for the overheating that leads to a thermal shutdown.

[horshack]

28 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

It doesn't need it. You should just be able to turn it off and the extremely thin slice of silicon & metal will cool down by itself from whatever it couldn't handle... Supposably 90C... To ambient temp or a comfortable for any CPU 45C... In less than a minute, if not even quicker, we're talking a few seconds to go from 90 to 60.

Anyone have a PC?

Open the CPU temp monitor and see how fast the temps fall once you stop rendering video in an NLE.

And they fall even faster if you pull the power completely.

Computers are larger and aren't weather sealed. My laptop stays warm for 10 minutes after I shut it off after it's been running at load.

[mechanicalEYE]

20 minutes ago, horshack said:

I have not seen any reports of the camera overheating to the point of shutting down from navigating within the menus or shooting stills. I have seen reports of the cumulative heat from those activities exhausting the video-recording heat budget. The camera can continue to provide video over HDMI during that period so I'm not seeing anything in your comment which refutes how video compression through DIGIC isn't a factor for the overheating that leads to a thermal shutdown.

It flashed the overheat warning on me around 22 minutes just sitting on the tripod with the display setting changed to 30minutes instead of 1 minute. No previous operation of the camera.

It has overheated recording externally at 42 minutes. indoors and outdoors.

Strangely I recorded 4K HQ externally yesterday in 102 degrees for 45 minutes straight with the camera blazing hot to the touch, ( hotter than any camera Ive touched ) brought the camera indoors while still recording because I was somewhat concerned about how hot it was, no overheat warning, all this was about 56 minutes and I'm sure it would have went past the hour mark easily. Camera was blazing hot and while it was recording I inserted the CFexpress card, opened the door, and the camera shutdown, once I inserted the card and closed the door the R5 went right back to recording to the ninja. I shut the ninja down and my R5 counter said 20 minutes of HQ, and a few moments later was at 25 minutes. The camera was way too hot, and I honestly expected to see minimal time allowed to record HQ and all other modes to the card, 4K 120, all flavors of 8K, with no reduction in times. Camera was still pretty warm to the touch in the end of it all. It was like I never turned it on. No freezer needed.

 

[ntblowz]

1 hour ago, Allan Castle said:

DPreview just deleted my post.  I linked to this article this morning.  It got several quick replies.  Most negative, saying that Eoshd was not legitimate, people liked the camera and did not care about video, etc.  

Well the other long thread with link to eoshd still active, but weird they delete urs instead of lock it.

[Kubsztal]

It would be worth also to heat the camera in an oven to some temperature over the overheat limit (e.g. 70°C?) and to check if recording could be started at all. If yes, you could keep the camera again in the oven for few hours after "overheating" to check if it somehow recovered despite no change in an ambient temperature. This could strengthen a proof, that mostly software timers are involved in a recovery process.

[horshack]

34 minutes ago, mechanicalEYE said:

It flashed the overheat warning on me around 22 minutes just sitting on the tripod with the display setting changed to 30minutes instead of 1 minute. No previous operation of the camera.

It has overheated recording externally at 42 minutes. indoors and outdoors.

Strangely I recorded 4K HQ externally yesterday in 102 degrees for 45 minutes straight with the camera blazing hot to the touch, ( hotter than any camera Ive touched ) brought the camera indoors while still recording because I was somewhat concerned about how hot it was, no overheat warning, all this was about 56 minutes and I'm sure it would have went past the hour mark easily. Camera was blazing hot and while it was recording I inserted the CFexpress card, opened the door, and the camera shutdown, once I inserted the card and closed the door the R5 went right back to recording to the ninja. I shut the ninja down and my R5 counter said 20 minutes of HQ, and a few moments later was at 25 minutes. The camera was way too hot, and I honestly expected to see minimal time allowed to record HQ and all other modes to the card, 4K 120, all flavors of 8K, with no reduction in times. Camera was still pretty warm to the touch in the end of it all. It was like I never turned it on. No freezer needed.

 

Very interesting, thanks for the report. Your observations point to DIGIC's thermals being what the firmware is triggering for the thermal shutdown (ie, the fact the camera allowed itself to get very warm for external recording but then immediately shut down when the camera was configured to allow internal recording, ie CFE card inserted). Also, the fact the camera allows near-unlimited recording over HDMI argues against intentional crippling since external recorders are common for professional video use - if Canon wanted to steer pro video customers away from the R5 to their rumored upcoming RF-based cinema cameras I don't see how they would permit long-run recording over HDMI.

[Lux Shots]

7 hours ago, Brian Flint said:

Yes you are right. To prevent too many write cycles the timer would have its count value written to the non-volatile memory every, say, 2 minutes. At this rate the 200,000 max write cycle would take a 277 days of continuous use to reach the limit. It it is assumed the camera is in use, say 4 hours, of every day then the limit would be reached in 4  1/2 years.

Yup, that would work!

I used to work for a major automotive company, but now I write software for a major test and measurement company. 😉

[mechanicalEYE]

16 minutes ago, horshack said:

Very interesting, thanks for the report. Your observations point to DIGIC's thermals being what the firmware is triggering for the thermal shutdown (ie, the fact the camera allowed itself to get very warm for external recording but then immediately shut down when the camera was configured to allow internal recording, ie CFE card inserted). Also, the fact the camera allows near-unlimited recording over HDMI argues against intentional crippling since external recorders are common for professional video use - if Canon wanted to steer pro video customers away from the R5 to their rumored upcoming RF-based cinema cameras I don't see how they would permit long-run recording over HDMI.

yes... the camera temporarily shuts down any time you open the card door if on. Doesnt matter if you just powered it on for the first time, or after hours of operation. Comes back on immediately once the card door is shut, and  I could pretty much immediately record full time lengths in any mode once I switched from HDMI to the card and the camera was HOT, not warm... but it needed no cool down time, to record at all favored modes. 

However, I wouldn't say the camera allows unlimited recording just because of HDMI... The camera screen has to be in power save mode to keep the overheat warnings at bay. With the R5 screen on, the camera wont make it past 42 minutes externally.

I've have tested this:

Indoors and outdoors from 97 to 102 degrees, ambient temps do not seem to play a huge role.

Camera overheated on me quickest indoors when at idle with screen on.

I'm not so sure the cards play much of a role whether in or out at the time of external recording.

[Andrew Reid]

Shutting down when the card door is opened is long standing Canon camera practice. The 5D2 does it. The 5D3 does it. It is to prevent data loss, if you pull card out of slot whilst accidentally recording to it without noticing.

Horshack: "Also, the fact the camera allows near-unlimited recording over HDMI argues against intentional crippling since external recorders are common for professional video use"

If anything this proves that the camera sensor isn't the main heat source, that it can go for ages, and that the processor can downsample the 8K sensor readout to 4K HQ on the fly, and put it out over HDMI for hours.

[Andrew Reid]

14 minutes ago, mechanicalEYE said:

I've have tested this:

Indoors and outdoors from 97 to 102 degrees, ambient temps do not seem to play a huge role.

Camera overheated on me quickest indoors when at idle with screen on.

So to clarify...

Are you sure HDMI recording is actually 4K HQ oversampled from 8K sensor readout? Or is it pixel binned? Please do the frame side by side quality check.

HDMI recording only goes for long if you deactivate live-view? Or does it go for long runs with the mirrored display too?

HDMI goes for long without a card in the slot? What about with one?

Please try to use an SD card for testing, as this shuts people up from claiming it's the hot CFexpress that's the issue.

[horshack]

I actually wanted to use Horseshit as my online handle around the web but it was either already taken or disallowed by profanity filters 😀

I would speculate it's the combination of the sensor and DIGIC as the main heat sources, in combination with the supporting DDR. The camera can record unlimited 4KLQ, which involves line-skipping/binning instead of oversampling, which reduces the workload for both the sensor (less data sampled per frame) and for DIGIC (less data to process coming off the sensor). The camera can also record long-run times using 4KHQ externally, which means the internal recording path is not used, which means less data flowing through DIGIC for processing for compression. If we presume there's a total operating heat budget and each of these components can contribute to exceed it, it makes sense that there's a matrix of settings (resolution, oversampling vs LQ, compression vs not) which allow the camera to record longer in some combinations and not in others. I'd also speculate the thermal algorithm uses both an instantaneous sampling of current temperature and also a projection of the thermal ramp expected based on the settings used, which in combination result in the projected available recording time that's reported to the user and also used as the thermal shutdown trigger.

[Andrew Reid]

On 8/13/2020 at 10:36 PM, horshack said:

Very interesting, thanks for the report. Your observations point to DIGIC's thermals being what the firmware is triggering for the thermal shutdown (ie, the fact the camera allowed itself to get very warm for external recording but then immediately shut down when the camera was configured to allow internal recording, ie CFE card inserted). Also, the fact the camera allows near-unlimited recording over HDMI argues against intentional crippling since external recorders are common for professional video use - if Canon wanted to steer pro video customers away from the R5 to their rumored upcoming RF-based cinema cameras I don't see how they would permit long-run recording over HDMI.

They permit long recording via HDMI for same reason they allow long recording in 4K pixel binned.

It is probably pixel binned 4K via HDMI.

Yet to test myself.

Anyway, if the camera allows itself to get very warm from external recording, it would shut down. Ask yourself why it suddenly throws a wobbly when you insert an SD card?

It is doing all that work for HDMI recording, casing mega hot to the touch in direct sun, then suddenly you ask of it to do a basic 4K H.265 compression that it does anyway in the normal continuous 4K non-HQ mode and all overheating hell breaks lose?!?

C'mon.

The artificial nature of the timers is a huge part of what is going on. It could even be all patent related. 8K RAW for long recording times may result in RED knocking on door for more money.

The majority of the processing is in the first 4 stages of the image processing pipeline and happen regardless of whether you use an external recorder or not.

Pipeline is probably something like this:

• Sensor rolling shutter
• Onboard sensor A/D conversion
• Debayering of 8K RAW sensor data / Downsampling to 4K
• Conversion from RGB to YUV
• Compression to H.264 or H.265

So just switching off the dedicated hardware H.265 encoder to 4K does not magically reduce heat. That encoder is doing 4K 10bit 422 in the non-HQ mode as well. So logically deduce what is going on in the different modes...

With HDMI recorder:

8K sensor readout (or maybe not)... debayer... resampling... conversion to YUV... RUNS FOR HOURS!

Without HDMI recorder:

Exact same process. But add the H.265 compression that happens in the non-heat restricted mode anyway... Suddenly, camera is screaming OVERHEATING!!?

C'mon.

[mechanicalEYE]

18 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

So to clarify...

Are you sure HDMI recording is actually 4K HQ oversampled from 8K sensor readout? Or is it pixel binned? Please do the frame side by side quality check.

HDMI recording only goes for long if you deactivate live-view? Or does it go for long runs with the mirrored display too?

HDMI goes for long without a card in the slot? What about with one?

Please try to use an SD card for testing, as this shuts people up from claiming it's the hot CFexpress that's the issue.

Andrew, I've attached a screenshot of HQ, and Non HQ. Theres a visible difference.

For me, mirrored display throws the overheat warning at 37 minutes, and shuts down at 42 minutes. 

Also note when my camera threw the overheat warning at 22 minutes while at idle, I had no card in camera just set to record HQ mode.

Seems like you could get unlimited recording dependent upon battery life when screen is on power save. I have seen no overheat warnings here. 

Without card in slot, it shut down in 42 minutes ( screen was on )

With a Cfexpress card in slot, but recording to HDMI it seemed as if the card made no impact to the times as battery died first. ( Screen was off )

I'll try SD card.