EOSHD testing finds Canon EOS R5 overheating to be fake

[Andrew Reid]

21 minutes ago, ajay said:

Is it basing it's ability to shoot by reading the temperature of the CFxpress Card?

Same limits with SD card puts a bullet through that theory

Although I am sure CFexpress cards do get hotter and can thermally throttle all by themselves so it's another variable.

[Andrew Reid]

4 minutes ago, Video Hummus said:

Doesn’t seem to be temperature based at all. Too many contradictions.

Its the CFExpress cards overheating. But it happens with SD cards too. Many cameras are recording to SD at high bitrates for a long time now.

Its the sensor overheating. Yet the sensor can record for 45+ mins in 102F scorching sun in 4KHQ and then immediately afterwards the god timer says it can record 20mins. Yet from a cold start it can only record for 25mins.

It’s the the DIGiC processor overheating. It could possibly be the codec compression that causes overheating. But again, doesn’t make sense consider the above three points. But then again, why are the timers the same when recording to SD card modes? Also, the camera overheats sitting in a menu with now codec compression or encoding going on at al!

It does't add up does it!

1. CFexpress card throttling... Why would it even break into a sweat recording in 8bit 4K at low bitrates? Yet camera in 4K HQ 8bit quits long before the CFexpress card has had to fully utilise anything close to maximum write speeds.

2. Sensor overheating... I could appreciate this is sensitive to heat, it gets noisy if hot. But it doesn't cut off for external recording doing full pixel readout (8K) for 4K HQ so that's that theory gone and the Chinese thermometer tests show the surface area of the chip is not the main heat source in the camera.

3. DIGIC processor overheating. Well the EXIF temp correlates to camera activity in so much as I observed it go from 46C to 62C in 8K mode. If this temp reading is on a PCB far away from the image processor, it is indicative more of internal air temp and CPU could be 10-20C higher. I could understand if the CPU has a thermal run-away problem past 80C why it would stop. But why would it do so when you add 8bit 4K HQ H.264 to the mix? Pretty much any camera can do that unlimited. And we know the SD card and sensor are not the heat limited parts. So why would this compression tip it over the edge... And why does it need a 2 hour recovery time when it cools down to normal ambient temps pretty much instantly?

4. Menu overheating. Nothing about this makes any sense whatsoever. If the CPU has a fault and it cannot shut down all cores in the menus or something, maybe. I say unlikely. Surely the net processor usage downsampling 8K sensor data to 4K HQ for HDMI is higher than scrolling a list of text

5. Stills / Live-view = reduced runtimes even 0 mins of 8K. This is the other very artificial thing with no basis in physics. It just doesn't make sense that the CPU is happy to go all day in live view or 4K 10bit H.265 from a pixel binned sensor output, but combine this with the 8K sensor output and BOOM processor has had it in less than 15 mins.

6. Recovery times = too long. No basis in real thermal dynamics or temperatures.

So it is all a big mystery and one I will be taking to the UK small claims court if Canon doesn't start cooperating or answering these questions.

[ajay]

Yes. There appears to be multiple parameters being calculated for different modes. It's crazy that you can record externally and get the camera super hot, insert a CF Express chip and get a full record limits. It's got to be ignoring the internal temperature of the camera. Makes no sense at all.

[Andrew Reid]

The only way it can possibly be really heat related is:

1. When 8K or 4K HQ are enabled (regardless of 10bit/8bit/compression type) the sensor fully sends it to the image processor and RAM, they all heat up in unison going full beans all at once, all 3 trying to melt one another, even in the menus, camera doesn't shut off the 8K feed in the menus, or in live-view, apart from maybe if you have Overheat Control turned on but I haven't really noticed that help much.

2. Maybe a margin is implemented in the thermal control system to take into account different speeds of card, some hotter than others, CFexpress temp is read by SMART, and added into the mix, once camera detects average temp on all 4 areas higher than a certain degrees (sensor, card, CPU, RAM), even if one of them crosses a boundary like the sensor as a result of the others running toasty, then maybe it will flash the overheat warning.

3. Maybe it tries to anticipate when this warning will occur by reducing maximum recording times in the limited modes, as you use the camera, whether this is artificial or accurate, I don't know.

4. I cannot in any way figure out the recovery times. Nothing about these make any sense. If the overheat trigger was caused by CFexpress card getting too hot, then removing that and putting a cold one in should reset the counter, right?

[Andrew Reid]

3 minutes ago, ajay said:

Yes. There appears to be multiple parameters being calculated for different modes. It's crazy that you can record externally and get the camera super hot, insert a CF Express chip and get a full record limits. It's got to be ignoring the internal temperature of the camera. Makes no sense at all.

Yep absolute madness that it can be heated in 35C direct sunlight, almost scolding to touch and at same time not have any of the main temp sensors register high enough for a cut off, when doing HDMI 4K HQ 10bit.

What next, can you go 20 mins of 8K with a hot CFexpress and camera fresh out the oven on a baking tray?

Canon better have a good explanation in the draft stages by now. It will need to be about 20 pages long!

[Andrew Reid]

Let's not forget that regardless of IF or HOW it overheats, Canon is still to blame because they chose to botch the internal layout with no proper heat dissipation for DIGIC X. No heat pipe or thermal pad, no direct conductivity to the chassis.

The cripple hammer is either that or the firmware.

Take your pick.

Personally, I think it's both!

[ajay]

The thing that is the most frustrating is that they created a camera that is mind-blowingly good and purposefully crippled it as to not compete with their cinema line.

The design was certainly intentional. They very easily could have used a similar design like the S1H to keep it from overheating but chose not to.

I don't know how you could file a claim against them however since they have publicly stated the camera's limitations. If they hid the limitations, yes you might have a case but since they told you before you bought it that it had limitations, they've covered their butt.

 

 

[Cliff Totten]

Haha....I just thought of something....

This new Tilta R5 cage with fan cooler? This information makes it 100% USELESS!

I really hope these Tilta guys have not gone into manufacturing yet!!

[Video Hummus]

5 minutes ago, Cliff Totten said:

Haha....I just thought of something....

This new Tilta R5 cage with fan cooler? This information makes it 100% USELESS!

I really hope these Tilta guys have not gone into manufacturing yet!!

I heard it uses the highly technologically  advanced Placebo affect to cool the camera! Cutting edge stuff!

[visionrouge]

Looking at the previous link:
I read something even weirder.
Switching card will give you back more time?
Is the heat temperature sensor located right beside the card? and it's the one the camera care the most?
"In today's experiment he actually ran out of space after 60 minutes of recording on the ProGrade, so he then switched to the Sony card. Just before the switch the camera was reporting near 0:00 available video recording time left (thermal indicator, not card space). After he switched from the ProGrade to the Sony the camera immediately jumped up to 15:00, and provided 15 minutes of recording before reaching thermal shutdown."

Can someone try to just put a card in a fridge and see if this give back plenty of time?
https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/64261516
 

[Hanriverprod]

Canon thought they were being clever. Give us 8k and hq4k up to 120 so they can't be accused of crippling and then these settings also gave them cover to limit the camera's capabilities to keep protecting their cine line.  It's like a loophole they came up with to try and shut us up with the constant bitching about their cripple hammer.  "Fine! Give them everything they want and more! Just make sure to show them that if they force us to give them these capabilities that they can't expect for these cameras to work properly. In fact make sure it doesn't work properly, so these idiots can think that it's their fault for asking for these things!" They thought this would fix their tarnished reputation as a tech company that cripples their overpriced products. Instead of just giving us the 4k at 60p in hq with canon colors without overheating which most of us would have been happy with they included the 120 and 8k to say it's our fault for making them give us everything we can dream of which can't possibly work. So the blame for this lays on our feet. They just wanted to make us happy but we asked for too much. lol

[Cliff Totten]

3 hours ago, Video Hummus said:

I heard it uses the highly technologically  advanced Placebo affect to cool the camera! Cutting edge stuff!

I swear....I HOPE Cannot engineers had the DECENCY to call Tilta up and say:

"Guys....before you lose a ton of money on manufacturing, we highly recommend that you NOT waste your time and money on this as we made sure that trying to cool the R5 won't work...."

Then again, I can see Cannot engineers saying this too;

"HAHA....look at these Tilta idiots TRYING to cool our R5. They have no CLUE they are just chasing a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow"

Wow......just.....wow.

[Emanuel]

Let's hope for a firmware update or mod.

[Avenger 2.0]

1 hour ago, Emanuel said:

Let's hope for a firmware update or mod.

Still waiting for Magic Lantern on 5DIV and EOS R. Don't get your hopes up too high.

[cameraeye]

Someone posted a picture (I think @Andrew Reid) ages ago showing a hidden usb port under the hand grip on the back of a canon camera (maybe 70D?). I wonder if the R5 has one that can be used as a diagnostic tool to read camera data and shed more light on what's going on.

Edit: Plug in cable > turn on camera > switch to 8K > Console: "soft-limit-cripple ACTIVATED!"

[Emanuel]

5 hours ago, Avenger 2.0 said:

Still waiting for Magic Lantern on 5DIV and EOS R. Don't get your hopes up too high.

You see @BTM_Pix@Andrew Reid how can we expect anything from Canon...? We need some mod from a third party if possible... :- )

[Andrew Reid]

12 hours ago, visionrouge said:

Can someone try to just put a card in a fridge and see if this give back plenty of time?
https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/64261516

I tried it, didn't work.

Bit of light 4K HQ recording, got "heat" countdown limit down to 20 mins with an SD card.

Put my frozen CFexpress card in fresh out of freezer.

Still 20 mins.

[Emanuel]

This freezer workaround is hilarious. Mind-boggling.

[zerocool22]

Are there any Canon events coming up that have an Q&A? I would love to see an official response from those guys. 

[ajay]

Well...At least the variables are being whittled down. It's all part of the process of understanding the Canon cripple hammer.