EOSHD testing finds Canon EOS R5 overheating to be fake

[BTM_Pix]

4 minutes ago, arourke said:

Have people tested removing the camera battery to see if it resets the timer? You may also need to remove the battery and insert a different memory card in case reset times are stored in a local file.

Thai may not work since some electronics have an internal battery for BIOS settings and/or an internal memory.

The app has a single button press function which sends the camera date/time ahead by one year.

It doesn't resolve the issue.

[Avenger 2.0]

2 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

And how in any way would a mirrorless camera cannibalise sales of a $15,000 full frame C500?

Indeed, they kind of killed their 5D & R5 series for a lot of professionals. I know a lot of wedding photographers that will not buy it because it overheats and is not reliable enough. A lot of them do photo and video and are going/staying with Sony or Panasonic. They will certainly not buy the Cxxx series or RF lenses now.

[arourke]

13 minutes ago, BTM_Pix said:

The app has a single button press function which sends the camera date/time ahead by one year.

It doesn't resolve the issue.

Resetting the date is a good test.

What is unknown is if there is a software based govenor, where it is reading the reset timer from a date time value. The camera date time is one option. A local file on the memory card, a temp file on the onboard RAM, or a stored file on an internal drive powered with an internal battery are other options.

[BTM_Pix]

7 minutes ago, arourke said:

Resetting the date is a good test.

Thanks.

7 minutes ago, arourke said:

What is unknown is if there is a software based govenor, where it is reading the reset timer from a date time value. The camera date time is one option. A local file on the memory card, a temp file on the onboard RAM, or a stored file on an internal drive powered with an internal battery are other options.

It will be a formula based on a combination of the actual temperature, the last time the temp status threshold was triggered, subsequent processor uptime and projected impact of the current settings rather than a basic clock calculation.

Storing it on the memory card would leave the camera vulnerable to overheating damage with a powered off card swap if someone inserted a fresh card.

The onboard RAM by its very nature would lose the value on power down as it is a volatile storage medium.

There is no internal drive powered by a battery or otherwise.

The internal coin cell battery is used for the real time clock, which we have proven that reseting doesn't effect the recovery times.

Which leaves the NVRAM.

Performing a settings reset doesn't actually even clear all of the user's settings so it is not in that area of NVRAM and by consequence that means any accessible area.

 

[Andrew Reid]

On 8/13/2020 at 1:48 AM, HiHamsterLuna said:

Have you guys not heard yet that the EOS R5 can record for 4 hours in HQ mode by using an external recorder?? 

One possible solution, will be to use a headless HDMI adapter and plug it into the HDMI port. These are basically a little plug that makes the camera think it has a HDMI recorder attached, then have a toggle in the @BTM_PixCDA TEK temp sensor monitor app that turns off the LCD image. It'll be interesting to see if this allows the camera to record internally for longer, but long term I see the only real fix being on Canon's side. It's up to them to step up to the table really.

[Andrew Reid]

Magic Lantern was able to read temps on previous Canon DSLRs. It gives us an idea of what's normal in stills mode for a digital camera.

They also found the EFIC chip temperature correlates well with the temperatures in JPEG EXIF data, like we are able to see on EOS R5 https://sternenkarten.com/2016/04/24/temperaturanzeige-mit-magiclantern/

Internal camera temperature can mean a lot of things - sensor, processor, chassis air temps, or an average of a few different sensors.

However generally I think it is giving a good impression of the internal temp around the main circuitboard.

This is useful because we can measure the internal temp at the beginning of a cold start, before we hit record on 8K for 20 mins.

Then when we turn the camera off, we can turn it back on again in 5 minutes and see if the temperature is back to what it was before the 20 mins.

If it is back to what it was, then logically there is no reason why the camera cannot go again for another 20 min run in 8K.

So the next test I am going to do is to put the camera in a fridge...

Sample internal temp during over a period of 100 stills over about 30 mins, and if this ends up reducing 8K recording times at internal camera temps far below what the ambient room temperature was when we could record the first 20 min 8K in, then we know there is something fishy.

Or... if after 1 hour an overheat warning is triggered in the fridge, with the camera just sat in the menus idle, then switched into 8K video mode, we know for certain the timer is an artificial limitation.

The WIFI app is great for triggering the camera behind the fridge door 🙂

I am just making sure I don't f*** the camera.

[gt3rs]

Not sure if he is the same @horshack that is so hated here.......

but this guy posted an interesting test on dpreview that having the camera on a fridge at 0.4C for 11h and then start shooting 8k he could do go for 69 minutes so for sure not a timer only temperature play a key role. Seems also the type of CFExpress has an impact
https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/64261516 

[Kino]

4 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

And how in any way would a mirrorless camera cannibalise sales of a $15,000 full frame C500?

I'm not sure about the C500 II, but it sure would put a damper on these plans:

https://www.canonrumors.com/canon-to-introduce-two-8k-cinema-eos-cameras-in-2021-cr2/

One of these Cinema EOS cameras will no doubt be on the level of the C700, as they speculate, but the other one will likely be a cheaper and more compact variant that could be severely undermined by a fully-functioning 8K RAW camera for $4K.

[Django]

32 minutes ago, gt3rs said:

Not sure if he is the same @horshack that is so hated here.......

but this guy posted an interesting test on dpreview that having the camera on a fridge at 0.4C for 11h and then start shooting 8k he could do go for 69 minutes so for sure not a timer only temperature play a key role. Seems also the type of CFExpress has an impact
https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/64261516 

hmm well I guess there goes the whole artificial timer conspiracy theory. now all we need is a portable cryogenic device to carry R5 during shoots!

[ntblowz]

29 minutes ago, Django said:

hmm well I guess there goes the whole artificial timer conspiracy theory. now all we need is a portable cryogenic device to carry R5 during shoots!

Wonder would freezing cfexpress cards do the trick?

[Andrew Reid]

He put it in the fridge for ELEVEN HOURS!!

The CFexpress card doesn't make a difference for me. Sure they get much hotter than SD cards but I get the same run times in 8K to CFe as I do to SD card

[sanveer]

48 minutes ago, Django said:

hmm well I guess there goes the whole artificial timer conspiracy theory. now all we need is a portable cryogenic device to carry R5 during shoots!

Did he also share a video. 

Forget I asked. I saw some guy's post mentioning that someone else tested it. And with some results.. Maybe a youtube video would be more interesting. 

[Andrew Reid]

If the 15 min 8K cripple clock is also based off temperature readings, it doesn't not make it artificial.

Remember the EXIF temp at 46C results in two different maximum 8K run times depending on how long the live-view has been on for.

In our tests it was 46C at the start of a 15 min clip and 62C at the end.

And it has been observed back at 46C but suddenly camera refuses to roll a single frame.

If you freeze the camera for 11 hours and trick it into going longer because a temperature sensor on the PCB takes longer to correlate with the internal temps being generated on the main CPU, not only is this dangerous and could brick the camera processor if it really is getting too hot, it doesn't prove that the timer and temp limits aren't at an artificially low cut off.

But the recovery timer is still the most fake thing for me.

As to see an inhibitor flagging just 5 mins of 8K after waiting over an hour and 30 mins is frankly bonkers and in no way can it be based on real physics.

[Andrew Reid]

56 minutes ago, Django said:

hmm well I guess there goes the whole artificial timer conspiracy theory. now all we need is a portable cryogenic device to carry R5 during shoots!

No it doesn't at all.

Just because you can freeze the temp sensor doesn't mean to say limitations are not artificial / cripple hammer territory.

It could be tricked into pausing the timer below a certain temperature.

But at normal operating temperatures NOT in a fridge, the cripple hammer runs as planned.

Remember my test, read it again, and question why the camera reports 46C and can go for 15 mins 8K, and then reports 46C again and cannot do it again, even after waiting 30 minutes turned off.

How is this based on real CPU temps??

Horshak does not have a camera.

[mechanicalEYE]

Sun burning scorching R5 camera shooting 4K HQ in 102 degrees with no cool down period, just inserted CFxpress card while recording externally, then turned off Ninja V, and R5 said full record limits were available in every desired mode. All that freezer for 11 hours talk is meaningless to me. Point is, I didn't need a freezer and the camera was so hot it could have melted cheese. 

 

[Andrew Reid]

Are you looking at the EXIF temp data @mechanicalEYE during these hot sun shoots? Would be interesting to see what it says

[mechanicalEYE]

I also tried sd card  today, and behavior was the same in sd compatible modes. 

Using the foloowing cards.

Prograde 128gb SD card

Prograde 1TB Cfexpreess card.

Both from cold start have same behavior. Camera warms up in the same way ( going of touch alone )

Both cards are warm upon removal after extended times recording.

[ajay]

5 minutes ago, mechanicalEYE said:

Sun burning scorching R5 camera shooting 4K HQ in 102 degrees with no cool down period, just inserted CFxpress card while recording externally, then turned off Ninja V, and R5 said full record limits were available in every desired mode. All that freezer for 11 hours talk is meaningless to me. Point is, I didn't need a freezer and the camera was so hot it could have melted cheese. 

 

Is it basing it's ability to shoot by reading the temperature of the CFxpress Card?

[ajay]

Here's some info about the Delkin CFExpress Card regarding thermal throttling:

"Thermal Throttling

The purpose of thermal throttling is to prevent components in a SSD from over-heating during read and write operations. Delkin’s CFexpress is designed with an on-die thermal sensor and with its accuracy, firmware can apply different levels of throttling to achieve the purpose of protection efficiently and proactively via SMART reading."

[Video Hummus]

Doesn’t seem to be temperature based at all. Too many contradictions.

Its the CFExpress cards overheating. But it happens with SD cards too. Many cameras are recording to SD at high bitrates for a long time now.

Its the sensor overheating. Yet the sensor can record for 45+ mins in 102F scorching sun in 4KHQ and then immediately afterwards the god timer says it can record 20mins. Yet from a cold start it can only record for 25mins.

It’s the the DIGiC processor overheating. It could possibly be the codec compression that causes overheating. But again, doesn’t make sense consider the above three points. But then again, why are the timers the same when recording to SD card modes? Also, the camera overheats sitting in a menu with now codec compression or encoding going on at al!