Panasonic S5 Entry Level Full Frame seems to be real...

[Video Hummus]

S5’s size and features looks interesting but I would like to know more about the L-Mount lenses.

The kind of stuff I do I can’t imagine myself wanting to lug a S series camera (or any FF at the moment) in my pack all day.

FF camera is great in S35 mode but you honestly need S35 native mount lenses for it to make any sense against MFT, imho.

If they start releasing l-mount S35 glass I think that would be a pretty big sign for another nail in the coffin for MFT. 

[sanveer]

36 minutes ago, SteveV4D said:

hope Andrew's taken better care of it than the R5... 🔧

I doubt whether it's as unreliable, as the R5. 

[MicahMahaffey]

1 hour ago, SteveV4D said:

And if fullframe becomes the norm, I'll invest in a fullframe video camera.  I won't invest in a fullframe hybrid and pretend I'm ready for a fullframe future.  

There are greater professionals than can be found here, out there shooting movies for cinema screens that are making better use of their S35 cinema cameras than those shooting fullframe hybrids right now because they love the look of fullframe. 

Let's not pretend that just because fullframe cinema is the future, someone can be ready for it by buying a fullframe Photo camera.

I guess I'm in the camp that believes mirrorless hybrid cameras can hold their own against their cinema counterparts when it comes to the image they produce. 

[MrSMW]

7 hours ago, sanveer said:

More like, he has the camera on him. Has had it probably for a few weeks. 

 

This is what I understood to be the case, ie, there are pre-production examples out there in the wild right now and come 2nd Sep, not only will there be the official Panny announcement, but the usual suspects plus some others, will be populating YouTube with ‘pre-prod reviews’.

[Trankilstef]

15 minutes ago, MrSMW said:

This is what I understood to be the case, ie, there are pre-production examples out there in the wild right now and come 2nd Sep, not only will there be the official Panny announcement, but the usual suspects plus some others, will be populating YouTube with ‘pre-prod reviews’.

Exactly what will happen. 

[SteveV4D]

8 hours ago, MicahMahaffey said:

I guess I'm in the camp that believes mirrorless hybrid cameras can hold their own against their cinema counterparts when it comes to the image they produce. 

They often lack a decent internal codec, suffer from more RS, less DR and other limitations compared to cinema cameras. Regardless of their image quality, which is often very good and does get used for TV and movie productions, though frequently as cheap crash cams; they're really no substitute for dedicated cinema cameras and cine lenses.  Things like global shutter, superior motion cadence and full colour reproduction and range is something a dedicated video camera will always excel at over the hybrid.

[MicahMahaffey]

1 hour ago, SteveV4D said:

They often lack a decent internal codec, suffer from more RS, less DR and other limitations compared to cinema cameras. Regardless of their image quality, which is often very good and does get used for TV and movie productions, though frequently as cheap crash cams; they're really no substitute for dedicated cinema cameras and cine lenses.  Things like global shutter, superior motion cadence and full colour reproduction and range is something a dedicated video camera will always excel at over the hybrid.

IMO hybrid cameras like the s1 and s1h have reached cinema level image quality, even with the internal codec. 

Motion cadence is probably the biggest struggle for non cine cameras but panasonic has motion really well handled. 

[sanveer]

3 hours ago, MrSMW said:

This is what I understood to be the case, ie, there are pre-production examples out there in the wild right now and come 2nd Sep, not only will there be the official Panny announcement, but the usual suspects plus some others, will be populating YouTube with ‘pre-prod reviews’.

Absolutely. And @Andrew Reid would be sharing some interesting insights with us,  here, exactly a few mins after the official release. I am looking for improvements to both hardware and software, ergonomics, handling and experience. 

[SteveV4D]

34 minutes ago, MicahMahaffey said:

IMO hybrid cameras like the s1 and s1h have reached cinema level image quality, even with the internal codec. 

Motion cadence is probably the biggest struggle for non cine cameras but panasonic has motion really well handled. 

Only the S1H I feel and with the 400 mbit all-l codec.  Which is what Netflix asks to make the S1H eligible for use on their productions.  S1 less so.

And you're forgetting lenses which play a special part in the cinema look.  

There's no doubt that hybrids produce a great image for their price.  But its for more reasons than simply being a dedicated video form factor that pushes TV and Film productions to use Red and Alexa cameras.  

Even the S1H lacks a certain magic I see in cinema cameras.  They're tools to do a certain job, handling both Photography and video and work well within those parameters.

14 minutes ago, sanveer said:

Absolutely. And @Andrew Reid would be sharing some interesting insights with us,  here, exactly a few mins after the official release. I am looking for improvements to both hardware and software, ergonomics, handling and experience. 

It'll be nice to read something positive, so I hope these improvements move from speculation to fact.

[MicahMahaffey]

8 hours ago, SteveV4D said:

Only the S1H I feel and with the 400 mbit all-l codec.  Which is what Netflix asks to make the S1H eligible for use on their productions.  S1 less so.

And you're forgetting lenses which play a special part in the cinema look.  

There's no doubt that hybrids produce a great image for their price.  But its for more reasons than simply being a dedicated video form factor that pushes TV and Film productions to use Red and Alexa cameras.  

Even the S1H lacks a certain magic I see in cinema cameras.  They're tools to do a certain job, handling both Photography and video and work well within those parameters.

It'll be nice to read something positive, so I hope these improvements move from speculation to fact.

The s1's internal codec is 100% good enough for a theatrical feature. 

But if you plan to RIP into the footage with extreme grades then yes, the All I codec is better. 

Just like raw isnt nessesary but it's nice to have. 

For a low budget indie film with a small crew, the Panasonic mirrorless cameras are a great tool for achieving a cinematic image with their dynamic range, color and ergonomics. Especially now with the S line and the varicam look these cameras produce. Plus they're 10bit 422 which opens the doors for post. 

I dont think the s1h is lacking that magic. Looking up films shot on it, I feel its image is right up there with the cine cameras of today. 

Once you get a great sensor on your hands an equally as good lens is a must to truly experience the potential 

[MrSMW]

56 minutes ago, MicahMahaffey said:

I dont think the s1h is lacking that magic. Looking up films shot on it, I feel its image is right up there with the cine cameras of today. 

Once you get a great sensor on your hands an equally as good lens is a must to truly experience the potential 

More than that even...

It’s the combo of: the camera, how it’s set up, the lens choices, the material you have to work with and the decisions made in that regard (which are not always within your control) and of course the skill level of the operator etc.

I’m sure there are folks out there who think that all they need is a ‘Netflix’ approved camera and the path to fame & riches awaits.

[SteveV4D]

57 minutes ago, MicahMahaffey said:

 

I dont think the s1h is lacking that magic. Looking up films shot on it, I feel its image is right up there with the cine cameras of today. 

Once you get a great sensor on your hands an equally as good lens is a must to truly experience the potential 

I hear the same argument from Canon users, Sony users, any mirrorless camera users in fact, justifying why their choice delivers the best. I get you like your camera; yep it does a great job.  However if I was shooting a movie or larger documentary with a budget, I'd grab a dedicated cinema camera.  Maybe with a mirrorless as a B camera for certain shots.

I plan to pick up the S5, if it meets potential.  Fullframe has it's uses, so do hybrids.  It'll be a lovely B camera.  I'd invest more for 1, but lack of decent AF in the S1H and the R5 issues makes them less appealing as an expensive purchase.  Hybrids still have a way to go before they compete with cinema cameras.  Limitations of form factor and their catering for photo holds them back IMO.

[MicahMahaffey]

I guess we'll have to just agree to disagree. 

Meanwhile films will be shot on mirrorless cameras and cine cameras all over. 

A cell phone from 2010 can look cinematic if lit and composed well. 

But modern 10 bit mirrorless cameras have closed the gap imo. 

For big productions with a need for all the fancy stuff the big cameras are perfect. But for low budget indie films or films shot in tight places a mirrorless cam is capable. 

There was a horror feature film shot on the a7sii a few years back. I saw it in theaters and couldn't even tell. 

I remember when the hollywood movie act of valor was almost shot entirely on canon 5ds? That was because of their form factor. 

I could tell they were a bit less capable, but honestly nobody else with me could tell. 

But again, that's a canon 5d. Modern mirrorless cameras are MUCH better. 

[SteveV4D]

I'm not arguing against the mirrorless cameras quality.  On the contrary, I've shot with them more than any other camera.  I also don't disagree for small indie movies they are ideal.  I would do the same.  I also saw and own a movie shot on the GH2 and the quality is very good.  I love the GH series cameras and own them all.  Brilliant cameras.  

Where I draw the line is feeling mirrorless hybrids are a replacement and even equal to cinema cameras.  Not just because a dedicated cinema camera have functions that mirrorless cameras lack, can be more reliable, but also as they have a better image that allows for stronger grading.  

This isn't to say mirrorless don't have a good image.  They do.  Throw the image out to an external recorder for RAW or use a 400mbit all-l codec and you are getting there.  But then you lose the portability and small size many buy mirrorless for.  

There are some who feel they can buy one camera that rules them all for all their video work.  I favour a variety of cameras to serve different needs.  In this setup, a mirrorless camera can be very useful and deliver a great image.  

In my experience, those who talk about the so called fullframe look, whilst overlooking the image quality difference a dedicated cinema camera has over mirrorless are probably locked into a certain point of view tied to the camera they currently own.

[MicahMahaffey]

28 minutes ago, SteveV4D said:

I'm not arguing against the mirrorless cameras quality.  On the contrary, I've shot with them more than any other camera.  I also don't disagree for small indie movies they are ideal.  I would do the same.  I also saw and own a movie shot on the GH2 and the quality is very good.  I love the GH series cameras and own them all.  Brilliant cameras.  

Where I draw the line is feeling mirrorless hybrids are a replacement and even equal to cinema cameras.  Not just because a dedicated cinema camera have functions that mirrorless cameras lack, can be more reliable, but also as they have a better image that allows for stronger grading.  

This isn't to say mirrorless don't have a good image.  They do.  Throw the image out to an external recorder for RAW or use a 400mbit all-l codec and you are getting there.  But then you lose the portability and small size many buy mirrorless for.  

There are some who feel they can buy one camera that rules them all for all their video work.  I favour a variety of cameras to serve different needs.  In this setup, a mirrorless camera can be very useful and deliver a great image.  

In my experience, those who talk about the so called fullframe look, whilst overlooking the image quality difference a dedicated cinema camera has over mirrorless are probably locked into a certain point of view tied to the camera they currently own.

My sony a6300 is my gimbal cam, The S1 is my main cam. (My personal cameras) I've used and worked with many different cine cameras as well. Pretty much any camera with a half decent codec/bit depth can be made to match anything in post. 

Things like color science are less important than they used to be. Although most modern cameras have astounding color regardless.

Hybrid cams are not replacements for CINEMA cameras, because cinema cameras have lots of features and a specific form factor needed for large productions that the mirrorless cameras just lack. 

But when it comes to the final image you obtain from these cameras the gap is pretty much as close as it can get. 

Also external recorders are great on cameras like the s1, enabling prores and cine camera equivalent codecs to go along with its cine quality color and dynamic range. 

I honestly know "real" cinema cameras are better, I've used them and wished i could own them myself, but if we're being honest, the images in these mirrorless cameras are just as good, or at least as good as it needs to be. So for the prices cameras go for now, we are very spoiled IMO 

Also the hacked GH2 is such a cool camera! Ive been tempted to buy a few just because its image has this pleasing classic 16mm film like character when pushing for it. 

[Kisaha]

@MicahMahaffeyWhen you input "a6300" when you talking about "indie cinema", I just lost my mind..

Everything is cool, technology has bring us amazing quality for a fraction of the cost but oranges are oranges and apples are apples.

Panasonic does amazing things to close the gap but when you talk about "indie films" you talk about films you do with your friends, or "indie films" that shot with the usual cinema cameras? Because we shot indie films here, but with C300 series, FX, even up to Alexas and Reds. The cost of a camera rent for a short is miniscule, that would be my last issue.

Your "sensor issue" as well is like you haven't read another thread in this forum before..You are like waking up in the 5DmkII days, I thought we are past that. Being out of focus isn't artistic and I bet you are OOF most of times, or you shoot with 8-11f.

We shoot a feature with an FX9 right now, a pro shooting, and guess what f stops are using most of the times...hint:no, it is not wide open and we use Canon Cine primes, not a photo zoom..

The movie you are mentioning is with moded A7 cameras. Have you checked the lenses they used? Do you know how many films around the world made with an A7s since then? 0(zero), and with cine cameras? Literally thousands..

You are taking some personal choices and I am sure they are great for you, but I wouldn't advise anyone else to worry as much as you do for those matters.

My first ever m43 camera is the P4K, and now that they have solved most of the issues I had with the smaller sensors, I genuinely waiting for the GH6 more than any other full frame camera. I am using the lenses I need for the project.

[SteveV4D]

48 minutes ago, MicahMahaffey said:

My sony a6300 is my gimbal cam, The S1 is my main cam. 

My issues with fullframe mirrorless is my frustration that there still isn't yet one to really set itself above the others.  Each model is close, yet each falls short in different areas.  Canon R5 and R6 suffer overheating, though have great AF, colour and IBIS.  Poorer DR for now.  The R5 promises Clog3 and internal Raw Light in future upgrades, which will be a huge advantage over the Panasonic and Sony.  Sony A7sIII has great lowlight, DR, AF, but colour needs more work and 12mbs for photos is a limitation if you do need HQ stills.  Still, its arguably the best fullframe mirrorless out there now for video.  I've never liked Sony; those I've owned have been very frustrating for me.  Not just for colour, but ergonmics too.  A few overheating problems on jobs have also not endeared me to them either.

Panasonic leads on video features, though the S1H is far better for video use than the stripped down S1.  It lacks a decent AF, and 60p is still cropped.  It could use an upgrade with 120fps 4K, uncropped 6K, and a decent AF to really dominate the market.  I'm intrigued to learn how the S5 sits with the S1 and S1H.

S5 could work well in my range of cameras for hybrid and run n gun work if it doesn't strip too much back from these cameras and it would be even better if it can improve in some areas.  Especially with competition from Sony and Canon.  

For video only, I'm more interested in the URSA 12k or the Canon C70.  But for hybrid, the S5 certainly has my attention.  It won't convert me into seeing the mythical fullframe look however. 🤣🤣

[MicahMahaffey]

9 hours ago, SteveV4D said:

My issues with fullframe mirrorless is my frustration that there still isn't yet one to really set itself above the others.  Each model is close, yet each falls short in different areas.  Canon R5 and R6 suffer overheating, though have great AF, colour and IBIS.  Poorer DR for now.  The R5 promises Clog3 and internal Raw Light in future upgrades, which will be a huge advantage over the Panasonic and Sony.  Sony A7sIII has great lowlight, DR, AF, but colour needs more work and 12mbs for photos is a limitation if you do need HQ stills.  Still, its arguably the best fullframe mirrorless out there now for video.  I've never liked Sony; those I've owned have been very frustrating for me.  Not just for colour, but ergonmics too.  A few overheating problems on jobs have also not endeared me to them either.

Panasonic leads on video features, though the S1H is far better for video use than the stripped down S1.  It lacks a decent AF, and 60p is still cropped.  It could use an upgrade with 120fps 4K, uncropped 6K, and a decent AF to really dominate the market.  I'm intrigued to learn how the S5 sits with the S1 and S1H.

S5 could work well in my range of cameras for hybrid and run n gun work if it doesn't strip too much back from these cameras and it would be even better if it can improve in some areas.  Especially with competition from Sony and Canon.  

For video only, I'm more interested in the URSA 12k or the Canon C70.  But for hybrid, the S5 certainly has my attention.  It won't convert me into seeing the mythical fullframe look however. 🤣🤣

Saying theres no full frame look is like saying humans cant see the difference between 1080 and 4k. Or that 24p is as much motion as we can see. 

Just because you dont notice the subtle nuances doesn't mean they dont exist. 

Look up the medium format look, theres plenty of experts who can explain this better than I. The bigger the sensor the larger the spread of light and the distance between the light drawn across the frame. Shallower DOF, gaining the compression of a portrait lens while maintaining the FOV of a wide. These are all parts of the "look" of medium format, but the same logic is applied to every sensor depending on their size. 

Just like an animorphic 50mm has a wide horizontal FOV comparable to a 24mm - 35mm. This plays with the motion in the frame and everything about the feeling you get. 

Larger sensors do have a look. Maybe it's not as obvious on a full frame, but it's there. 

Anyway, that's the last I have to say on this subject. You either see it or you dont, its subjective. I'm not telling you that you're wrong, I'm not telling anyone their wrong. MFT cameras are amazing. If I wasnt in tight spaces for so many of my jobs I'd maybe grab some mft cameras for their value. 

Cinematography is subjective enough without every other person telling you you're wrong for liking something.. 

I'm only going to discuss full frame pansonic cameras in this thread from this point on. The s5 is an interesting looking camera. Let's get back to that. 

[MicahMahaffey]

9 hours ago, Kisaha said:

@MicahMahaffeyWhen you input "a6300" when you talking about "indie cinema", I just lost my mind..

Everything is cool, technology has bring us amazing quality for a fraction of the cost but oranges are oranges and apples are apples.

Panasonic does amazing things to close the gap but when you talk about "indie films" you talk about films you do with your friends, or "indie films" that shot with the usual cinema cameras? Because we shot indie films here, but with C300 series, FX, even up to Alexas and Reds. The cost of a camera rent for a short is miniscule, that would be my last issue.

Your "sensor issue" as well is like you haven't read another thread in this forum before..You are like waking up in the 5DmkII days, I thought we are past that. Being out of focus isn't artistic and I bet you are OOF most of times, or you shoot with 8-11f.

We shoot a feature with an FX9 right now, a pro shooting, and guess what f stops are using most of the times...hint:no, it is not wide open and we use Canon Cine primes, not a photo zoom..

The movie you are mentioning is with moded A7 cameras. Have you checked the lenses they used? Do you know how many films around the world made with an A7s since then? 0(zero), and with cine cameras? Literally thousands..

You are taking some personal choices and I am sure they are great for you, but I wouldn't advise anyone else to worry as much as you do for those matters.

My first ever m43 camera is the P4K, and now that they have solved most of the issues I had with the smaller sensors, I genuinely waiting for the GH6 more than any other full frame camera. I am using the lenses I need for the project.

Also to clarify, when I say shallower DOF, I'm not talking about shooting wide open. In fact, I'm saying you can stop your lens down on full frame and still maintain lots of dof due to the distance between your subject and camera. On smaller sensors this is much more difficult to achieve. 

Also the a6300 is a nice lil camera. I just wouldn't wanna shoot an entire feature on it. 

A Panasonic s1 or s1h? I definitely would. 

[SteveV4D]

43 minutes ago, MicahMahaffey said:

Just because you dont notice the subtle nuances doesn't mean they dont exist. 

Its so subtle, I find myself reminded of the Emporers New Clothes story.  Art is full of this sort of stuff.  Vast majority who talk about the fullframe look are simply referring to their fullframe camera resolving the full range of their fullframe lenses vs using those same lenses on a cropped sensor.  You can get a similar look using dedicated MFT and S35 lenses for these sensors.   A fullframe look isn't the same as a cinematic look and shouldn't be confused with it.

43 minutes ago, MicahMahaffey said:

Saying theres no full frame look is like saying humans cant see the difference between 1080 and 4k. Or that 24p is as much motion as we can see. 

Er no.  That is a bit of a stretch for an analogy.  And you're simplifying why people may struggle to see a difference in those examples.  Besides Fps and resolution actually appear in a cameras exif data.  The fullframe look doesn't get a mention... 🤣🤣