Django Posted August 25, 2020 Share Posted August 25, 2020 The Tilta cooling system may work for all we know. The deep freeze experiment showed that the R5 timer only seems to get triggered after a certain temp threshold. ...Of course these latest findings prove we don’t even need an external cooling system to begin with! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stanly Posted August 25, 2020 Share Posted August 25, 2020 14 hours ago, Electroholic Anonymous said: the timer procedure kicks in very late in the startup process, after reading out user commands apparently. Very odd. Very odd indeed! Might be last minute decision, or even part of plan to eventually "solve all issues" by the time camera truly ships. 14 hours ago, Electroholic Anonymous said: the time it records before it shuts down due to 'overheating' correlates with the time since the previous time it shuts down This + the fact that @Andrew Reid had to use a formatted card after every "reset" might point to camera reading the contents of the card with time stamps to know if there was an 8K / 4K HQ etc. recorded recently. I wonder what happens if you record 8K until camera overheats in one R5, then insert the same card into a different R5 ... if the code is this flawed (quite possible, since it looks to be a last minute thing) – the fresh R5 might think it is overheated without ever being powered on. LukeM 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Electroholic Anonymous Posted August 25, 2020 Share Posted August 25, 2020 1 hour ago, Django said: The Tilta cooling system may work for all we know. The deep freeze experiment showed that the R5 timer only seems to get triggered after a certain temp threshold. ...Of course these latest findings prove we don’t even need an external cooling system to begin with! What deep freeze experiment? I missed that. I have built a Tilta freezer myself 3 weeks ago, and I can confidently state that based on my experiments, ramming 60W of power into a Peltier element, cooling the back of the R5 to -5 degrees Celsius, that it has ZERO impact on the overheating timer. See pictures of my crude but effective Peltier cooling system. The cooling works, the sensor is 5 to 10 degrees colder, the card slot around 10 degrees Celsius colder, but zero impact, at leat with this version 1.0.0 R5 firmware. The Tilta is a marketing creation, and drawn up by a technical drawing artist. Having worked a considerable part of my career as a hardware and software engineer for a telecom networking giant, this is my guess. I could be wrong, and that Canon and Tilta are working together and that Tilta has access to a newer firmware that does take temperature measurements into account. 11 minutes ago, Stanly said: Very odd indeed! Might be last minute decision, or even part of plan to eventually "solve all issues" by the time camera truly ships. This + the fact that @Andrew Reid had to use a formatted card after every "reset" might point to camera reading the contents of the card with time stamps to know if there was an 8K / 4K HQ etc. recorded recently. I wonder what happens if you record 8K until camera overheats in one R5, then insert the same card into a different R5 ... if the code is this flawed (quite possible, since it looks to be a last minute thing) – the fresh R5 might think it is overheated without ever being powered on. Good suggestions, I also thought of that. However, I can rule this out based on my experiments. I am describing this in the description and first comment of my video. Sometimes, roughly 1 in 3 times, the card does not write fast enought after a sudden power interruption. The manual of the R5 specifically states to perform a low-level format when this happens, this is indeed effective. In the other cases that the card writes just fine after the power interruption, it gladly gives 15:00 for 8K RAW, every time. Andrew Reid 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Electroholic Anonymous Posted August 25, 2020 Share Posted August 25, 2020 \ As is wrote above, despite 60W of Peltier cooling power supplied, with a copper heatspreader covering the whole back of the R5 behind the LCD screen and cooling it to -5 degrees Celsius, risking internal condensation, it has ZERO impact on the time I can record in 8K RAW, with my R5 with firmware v 1.0.0. I was willing to walk around with this ugly contraption if it would give me longer recording times. I need a full NP-F970 battery per hour for the maximum cooling. I doubt Tilta will apply that much cooling power. visionrouge, Hanriverprod, ajay and 2 others 2 1 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davos Posted August 25, 2020 Share Posted August 25, 2020 Peltier coolers are very very inefficient but as Andrew and others have shown any form of cooling is completely irrelevant to the recording times of the R5! The Tilta mock up appeared rather quickly and just gave the fan boys something to grasp onto and prolong the denial that Canon was actually shafting its customers. It's damning that owners have to resort to such measures - look at it how butt ugly that cooler is! Just fix the damn camera Canon. You created this mess, you fix it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Electroholic Anonymous Posted August 25, 2020 Share Posted August 25, 2020 I am afraid they will not fix it. There already video production companies who by prosumer equipment instead of de cinema lines. It's a hell of a lot cheaper, and not only that, you can mingle more easily with a GH5 (or a7iii or an R5) then with a c300 or Red. That's the danger, that more of these companies, think, we'll go for the R5 instead, no need for the c300, or c-something-RF. Even worse than not fixing it, Canon might close the loophole(s). Then I rather stay on 1.0.0.firmware and find a way to use the unfinished DAT files. I already sent the power interrupted 8K RAW file (which appears on the CFexpress card with the extension DAT instead of CRM) as wel as a healthy CRM file to grauonline.de. Again, see the decription and first comment of my video in which I describe all of this. The C200 can finish such a DAT file, the R5 does not offer this (with the current firmware). So let's say your R5 crashes, or your battery malfunctions, then your recorded data (DAT file) is unrecoverable at this time. That's where grauonline comes in, they offer a program that can automatically repair video recordings that are corrupted. I hope I hear back from them soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenneth gooswit Posted August 25, 2020 Share Posted August 25, 2020 One must be very stupid or loaded with money to buy this camera. how much is canon paying people to write possitive stories.??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Andrew Reid Posted August 25, 2020 Author Administrators Share Posted August 25, 2020 Ken. Shall we focus on the technical, rather than opinion soup now. Some promising discoveries. Emanuel 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Andrew Reid Posted August 25, 2020 Author Administrators Share Posted August 25, 2020 18 minutes ago, Electroholic Anonymous said: I am afraid they will not fix it. There already video production companies who by prosumer equipment instead of de cinema lines. It's a hell of a lot cheaper, and not only that, you can mingle more easily with a GH5 (or a7iii or an R5) then with a c300 or Red. That's the danger, that more of these companies, think, we'll go for the R5 instead, no need for the c300, or c-something-RF. Even worse than not fixing it, Canon might close the loophole(s). Then I rather stay on 1.0.0.firmware and find a way to use the unfinished DAT files. Yes there is a good chance Canon won't do anything. That's why it's great to see a workaround that starts off impractical, later turn into a simple fix that can be done on a proper shoot to defeat the timer. I feel with the combined effort of @BTM_Pix, A1EX, Magic Lantern, Horshack, myself and others we may get there. Or at least continue to strip back Canon's BS layer by layer. Emanuel 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Electroholic Anonymous Posted August 25, 2020 Share Posted August 25, 2020 It would be great if Magic Lantern could repeat their work for the 5D line, that would be heaven. Otherwise, if I find a way to recover the DAT file into a healthy CRM file, I might just use that. It should not be difficult, because ending the 17 min recording in my video, does not appear to take any considerable processing. If I compare the DAT file to the CRM file with a hex editor (HxD), the data looks the same (also in SciPy and Matlab I get the same data entropy readings, of course, it's compressed RAW data after all) The header is different though, what's missing is metadata, how many frames are recorded, block entries for audio and video data, etc. A simple copy over from the header of the healthy CRM to the unfinished DAT file, did not work well in Premiere and Resolve, they recognize it, but Premiere gives frame access exceptions (I forgot the precise error description), and Resolve shows black video. It is not easy (for me), to rebuild the correct metadata for the DAT file. It is not easy for the c200 either because it lasts a long time on that camera to repair a DAT file. Hopefully our friends at Grau expand their program with support for the R5 soon, it support a long list of camera's and formats, I trust they will be able to do it. Their program is able to repair the MP4 files, but the resulting 8K video is all corrupted, although the metadata is correct, correct codec information, number of frames and all. I have send them a healthy and corrupted MP4 too. Thanks Andrew, please keep pushing with the wonderful people of Magic Lantern. Where can we donate to Magic Lantern to get this show going? Crowd funding anyone? If that does not work out, I am confident (and foolish) enough to shoot with the power interruption method, once a reliable DAT file recovery option is available. Andrew Reid and Emanuel 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davos Posted August 25, 2020 Share Posted August 25, 2020 3 minutes ago, Electroholic Anonymous said: Otherwise, if I find a way to recover the DAT file into a healthy CRM file, I might just use that. It should not be difficult, because ending the 17 min recording in my video, does not appear to take any considerable processing. You wanna hook up with Horshack, he's trying to achieve the same thing - share notes! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajay Posted August 25, 2020 Share Posted August 25, 2020 To summarize where things stand at present with trying to "fix" the R5 (correct me if I am wrong): Hardware Fix There really is no way to "fix" the camera from a hardware standpoint other than to power-cycle the internal button battery to reset the NV ram. All camera settings would be lost every time the R5 would be deep power-cycled. Fans/cooling devices wouldn't fix the timer. Firmware (Magic Lantern Style) Fix There's no way to analyze the firmware of the R5 until Canon releases a new version of the firmware as a file that can be downloaded. There might be a potential to add on firmware similar to how ML has done this in the past that might work-around the timer. Certainly not a quick-fix but there's incredible potential here if Canon hasn't taken away the ability to add-on ML-style firmware. Pulling the Battery while Recording Potential here to repair the corrupt video file and prevent the R5 from writing timer information to the NV ram. Wait for Canon to Throttle Back the Cripple Hammer Will Canon come to their senses and make this a usable camera for video? Time will tell. Best option really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Django Posted August 25, 2020 Share Posted August 25, 2020 2 hours ago, Electroholic Anonymous said: What deep freeze experiment? I missed that. https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/64261516 Horshack reported 69 minutes of 8K after an 11 hour deep freeze. So it would appear that temperature reading does affect the timer, although I’m sorry to hear your attempt didn’t succeed in similar results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nerv Posted August 25, 2020 Share Posted August 25, 2020 looks like memory card used may make a difference. Prograde vs... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nerv Posted August 25, 2020 Share Posted August 25, 2020 17 minutes ago, Nerv said: looks like memory card used may make a difference. Prograde vs... If below is true and the memory card effects timer precision causing confusion to the cripple timer...ie will be corrected with next firmware update so buy up those ProGrade cards and stick with 1.00 "There is one other significant difference that might prove more interesting than the meat drawer. Yesterday's experiment was with a Sony CFE card. Today's experiment was with a ProGrade card. In today's experiment he actually ran out of space after 60 minutes of recording on the ProGrade, so he then switched to the Sony card. Just before the switch the camera was reporting near 0:00 available video recording time left (thermal indicator, not card space). After he switched from the ProGrade to the Sony the camera immediately jumped up to 15:00, and provided 15 minutes of recording before reaching thermal shutdown. Another interesting CFE observation is the indicated available video time on the ProGrade is displayed with granularity to the second - for example at the start of the test it showed 24:23 (24 minutes, 23 seconds), whereas the Sony always shows the seconds field of zero (for example, 15:00, 10:00, 05:00). It's very interesting that the precision of the available time left (presumably based exclusively on thermals) would be different for one card vs another. This implies the thermal calculation may be based in part on the CFE interface and specific card, either due to differences in some field the card returns in a CFE/NVMe protocol or even more interesting, based on a thermal element of the card itself. More experiments will need to be performed to investigate this aspect." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davos Posted August 25, 2020 Share Posted August 25, 2020 8 minutes ago, wuckfit99 said: I suspect Canon will make some changes, most likely to firmware, that they will claim address of the issues exposed in these investigations - but whether those changes are enough to satisfy everyone given how we've seen the camera can actually perform is highly doubtful. People have now seen you can run the thick end of an hour of 8K. Canon giving another 10 minutes ain't going to cut it. The cat is out the bag. Another issue Canon has to deal with, of their own making. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Electroholic Anonymous Posted August 25, 2020 Share Posted August 25, 2020 1 hour ago, Django said: https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/64261516 Horshack reported 69 minutes of 8K after an 11 hour deep freeze. So it would appear that temperature reading does affect the timer, although I’m sorry to hear your attempt didn’t succeed in similar results. Thanks a lot! That's a lot to plough through. The freezer experiment is very intersting, albeit not practical for normal use. However, it brought to light that there are perhaps different modes, with different temperature offsets for those modes to kick in. In my experiments switching the cards never made an impact. I did have a 'spontaneous' timer reset though, again, explained in the description and comment in my youtube video. It was with an external battery with accompanying dummy battery in the R5. The timer was at 00:00 in 8K RAW and the external battery ran close to empty when the R5 gave a full screen battery warning to replace or charge the battery, which I had not seen before. It gave this warning every 5 seconds or thereabouts. During the fourth or fifth time the R5 suddenly switched off and could not be switched on again. I thought nothing of it, until I replaced it with the regular fully charged battery, powered on and was welcomed with 15:00. Very odd. I might also have replaced the CFexpress card, that I do not know, but then this would be the only instance in a full month of use that this happened on changing CFexpress cards. I have never used an SD card in the R5, heck, I don't even know whether my SD card slot works 😉 Time to find out I guess. My guess for the timer reset was, that the R5 lost power just at the precise moment it was writing the status to the NVRAM, failed and therefore corrupted it. The power on lasted some 10 seconds, whereas normally it's just 1 or 2 seconds. This lead me to believe it needed to fix a corrupted data problem, luckily it was able to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Electroholic Anonymous Posted August 25, 2020 Share Posted August 25, 2020 1 minute ago, wuckfit99 said: That's exactly what I meant - as I said in an email to Andrew this morning, I have no idea now given the mess they've made of this how Canon can come out of this with any credit. Bad editing in my original post - should have said "....they will claim address some of the issues exposed..." It takes considerable efforts, power, force, intelligence (or kilotons, sorry) to confince people in charge over there. I am not hopeful at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulUsher Posted August 25, 2020 Share Posted August 25, 2020 Petition demands firmware update within 30 days. Reached 100 signature goal on first day. Please keep sharing this to drive the numbers and keep the pressure on. https://www.change.org/p/stop-the-cripple-hammer Emanuel 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danieleciraolo Posted August 25, 2020 Share Posted August 25, 2020 Canon su please the customers who bought the camera you advertised as 8k and 4k 120 fps and lift the stupid recording limits !! Leave the 15 minutes x 8k and 10/7 min for 4k 120 ..... but eliminate the waiting times to have a few more minutes of recording !! make it always available to shoot 8k and 4k 120, 4k hq without ever having to turn off the camera !!! But only if a room actually reaches 80 C ° if used in too hot environments !!! Make your customers happy who have been using canon for a lifetime and have been waiting for this room at last with innovative and valid functions !! After you have castrated all the cameras on the video department from the 5d mk3 !!!! Update this firmware and eliminate the wait times and add 240 fps in full hd and clog 2 and 3!!! Pleaseeeeeeeeee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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