My Canon EOS R5 recording 8K video 50 minutes straight

[horshack]

20 minutes ago, Electroholic Anonymous said:

My external battery has cut the test short unfortunately, 40 minutes into the test. The R5 gave the message to charge or replace the battery. I will repeat the test that I posted on youtube, tonight, running for over an hour this time, using two Sandisk 128GB SD cards in FAT32. Showing the clock again, and connecting the Ninja for the low-res 😉 4K Prores backup, and the thermal camera, and copying over all MP4 files in between, for proof. Just now I did not have time to copy the first run of MP4 files of the card. So tonight, or this afternoon if I have time.

Great, thanks. Please keep an eye out for those "slow card" error messages. One of theories about Canon's thermal management is to avoid overheating the media cards and causing them to throttle, esp. CFE but perhaps also SD. Once the cards get above a certain temp they start to internally throttle their performance to reduce heat, and this may manifest as those "slow card" error messages.

[Electroholic Anonymous]

Indeed, that is foreseen, however, in all my tests, it only appeared when not formatting a card after a power drop, and this single time with the SD it was me deleting the files on the PC, without formatting it, in the other 6 instances in which I formatted the SD card it did NOT happen. I never ever had a slow card error in normal use for over a month with the R5. I am not ruling out that the R5 could do that as you say, it's just that I did not experience it after much abuse.

[horshack]

5 minutes ago, Electroholic Anonymous said:

Indeed, that is foreseen, however, in all my tests, it only appeared when not formatting a card after a power drop, and this single time with the SD it was me deleting the files on the PC, without formatting it, in the other 6 instances in which I formatted the SD card it did NOT happen. I never ever had a slow card error in normal use for over a month with the R5. I am not ruling out that the R5 could do that as you say, it's just that I did not experience it after much abuse.

Good, thanks. Dropping power to NAND devices while writing isn't good for their health, esp low-end consumer devices like SD cards that may not have good power-loss recovery mechanisms. They may interpret the CRC errors from those blocks on subsequent accesses as bad blocks and start to remap them, which can affect performance. To help avoid this I would try to time the battery pulls to occur in between card writes by monitoring the card-access light on the camera, presuming there are idle periods visible in between writes for the data rate of the video quality you're shooting.

[Electroholic Anonymous]

Indeed. Also, every time a second start of the video did not give a card slow error, so only the first attempt writing to a power dropped SD or CFexpress card gives this behaviour.

Here are the prelimnary results of the 40 minute 8K IPB FAT32 test. From 15 to some 40 minutes in to the test. Things appear to stabilize around 72C. Let's see how it fares tonight.

[horshack]

19 minutes ago, Electroholic Anonymous said:

Indeed. Also, every time a second start of the video did not give a card slow error, so only the first attempt writing to a power dropped SD or CFexpress card gives this behaviour.

Here are the prelimnary results of the 40 minute 8K IPB FAT32 test. From 15 to some 40 minutes in to the test. Things appear to stabilize around 72C. Let's see how it fares tonight.

Thanks. Things are getting pretty toasty at around 72C 😀 That also happens to be the temp that Hoka Key's test stopped after 69 minutes of 8K recording for the overnight-fridge test. Here's my graph of that test (on right - left is non-fridge test):

[Electroholic Anonymous]

72C is about the temperature that my 2011 Macbook Pro 17 inch idles in, because Apple back then did not want to annoy users with whining fans, it correctly thought that some 70C is cold enough for a CPU, and only really kick up the fan speeds when approaching 100C, below 80C the fans are already coming down, and, just as I like it. What a hassle it was to make my Alienware laptop behave the same. Let's see whether I still have a working R5 this evening, or next month, or next year, a few years from now. Is it really the cripple hammer v2? Or is it a crude and hurried attempt at temperature and heat damage control by the magnificent engineers of Canon?

[Electroholic Anonymous]

By the way, is there any temperature information of let's say a 5D2 or 5D3 running Magic Lantern in one of its more demanding modes?

[hyalinejim]

Just now, Electroholic Anonymous said:

By the way, is there any temperature information of let's say a 5D2 or 5D3 running Magic Lantern in one of its more demanding modes?

Somebody on the Magic Lantern forum might know this. There is a thread discussing the R5, so the question would be quite on topic:

https://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=24827.0

[Vinicius Zucareli]

39 minutes ago, Electroholic Anonymous said:

Indeed. Also, every time a second start of the video did not give a card slow error, so only the first attempt writing to a power dropped SD or CFexpress card gives this behaviour.

Here are the prelimnary results of the 40 minute 8K IPB FAT32 test. From 15 to some 40 minutes in to the test. Things appear to stabilize around 72C. Let's see how it fares tonight.

So, here is where you guys are hanging out. I thought you were in the DP review forums still. But anyway. 

 

1 - it seems it will stabilize at 72C I think this is the third test I see stabilizing at that temperature long term. 

 

2 - it drops 7C in under 3 minutes between card exchange. So anything more than about 15 minute wait time must be artificial 

[Ilkka Nissila]

30 minutes ago, Electroholic Anonymous said:

72C is about the temperature that my 2011 Macbook Pro 17 inch idles in, because Apple back then did not want to annoy users with whining fans, it correctly thought that some 70C is cold enough for a CPU, and only really kick up the fan speeds when approaching 100C, below 80C the fans are already coming down, and, just as I like it. What a hassle it was to make my Alienware laptop behave the same. Let's see whether I still have a working R5 this evening, or next month, or next year, a few years from now. Is it really the cripple hammer v2? Or is it a crude and hurried attempt at temperature and heat damage control by the magnificent engineers of Canon?

A friend of mine's 2011 Macbook Pro died twice from overheating (once it was fixed under warranty by replacing the motherboard but the actual problem was not solved and the problem later repeated itself) so it seems clear that this is not a good practice to run at such high temperatures.

Also, it is not clear where the R5 measures the EXIF-reported temperature. It might not be the processor's internal temperature but a separate sensor inside the camera.

[horshack]

40 minutes ago, Electroholic Anonymous said:

72C is about the temperature that my 2011 Macbook Pro 17 inch idles in, because Apple back then did not want to annoy users with whining fans, it correctly thought that some 70C is cold enough for a CPU, and only really kick up the fan speeds when approaching 100C, below 80C the fans are already coming down, and, just as I like it. What a hassle it was to make my Alienware laptop behave the same. Let's see whether I still have a working R5 this evening, or next month, or next year, a few years from now. Is it really the cripple hammer v2? Or is it a crude and hurried attempt at temperature and heat damage control by the magnificent engineers of Canon?

Keep in mind there are other components inside the R5 that may have thermal envelopes below DIGIC and Image Sensor, the most obvious of which is the media cards.  ProGrade list the maximum ambient operating temperature of their cards at 70C, beyond which they can start to throttle. If you look at the photos of the Chinese R5 teardown the CFE/SD bay sits right next to DIGIC and SDRAM. 

https://progradedigital.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/ProGrade_DS_CFexpress_Final_E.pdf

[Electroholic Anonymous]

23 minutes ago, Ilkka Nissila said:

A friend of mine's 2011 Macbook Pro died twice from overheating (once it was fixed under warranty by replacing the motherboard but the actual problem was not solved and the problem later repeated itself) so it seems clear that this is not a good practice to run at such high temperatures.

Also, it is not clear where the R5 measures the EXIF-reported temperature. It might not be the processor's internal temperature but a separate sensor inside the camera.

I was waiting for someone to bring this up 😉 Mine died only once, but it was due to a faulty AMD gpu, which was a common problem with this specific model. Apple had a full recall program for it, mine was repaired in 2017, 6 years after purchase, well out of warranty, and still repaired free of charge, and I got a new back panel because they wanted to be nice. I think they made AMD pay for it, I am not sure. Apple did not even issue new fan speed profiles in any of its software updates to protect against excessive heat, why would they, they gladly repaired your friend's Macbook for a second time, costing them nothing and betting on your friend getting a new shiny Macbook. Business 101?

Who knows, this could pan out the same way with the R5, let's say there is indeed a component somewhere in the R5 that cannot stand the heat and that its temperature cannot be closely monitored with the current R5 design, it could be anything, some auxiliary chip, the EVF, even something as simple as a capacitor. If it dies prematurely, then they could let that part supplier pay. The big 'if' of course is whether that part would run outside its specification.

What really puzzles me though is why the R5 is so much hotter to the touch during a 8000 per hour photo run, than I have ever encountered even after close to 50 minutes of 8K RAW abuse? What component specific to the higher video modes cannot stand the heat. That I would like to know.

[Electroholic Anonymous]

22 minutes ago, horshack said:

Keep in mind there are other components inside the R5 that may have thermal envelopes below DIGIC and Image Sensor, the most obvious of which is the media cards.  ProGrade list the maximum ambient operating temperature of their cards at 70C, beyond which they can start to throttle. If you look at the photos of the Chinese R5 teardown the CFE/SD bay sits right next to DIGIC and SDRAM. 

https://progradedigital.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/ProGrade_DS_CFexpress_Final_E.pdf

Yes, that's why I was closely measuring the interface side of the CFE card coming out of the camera, which at one point was 56C, whereas the back of the card was 68C at the last run, if I remember correctly, otherwise I will have to watch back my boring youtube video 😉 The interface side of the CFE is only millimeters from the Digic X and RAM. The SD card is closer to the back side of the mainboard. I think running 47 minutes of 8K RAW with the CFEs in my video was riskier than the planned test of 60 minutes 8K IPB with the SDs, taking your remarks and my previous sentence into account. Famous last words? 🙂

 

[Electroholic Anonymous]

The Sandisk 512GB CFE card throttled only once, during this 8000 photos I took within an hour. I was so giddy that I could not even count how fast the buffer was clearing, until some 45 minutes into the shoot it really slowed down, to say only twice (yes, only twice) the speed of my a7R4 clearing its buffer to 300MB/s SD cards. Never ever have I experienced a fault or slow down of a CFE card in my R5 during recording video that is not attributable to a non-formatted power interrupted card.

[Ilkka Nissila]

28 minutes ago, Electroholic Anonymous said:

I was waiting for someone to bring this up 😉 Mine died only once, but it was due to a faulty AMD gpu, which was a common problem with this specific model. Apple had a full recall program for it, mine was repaired in 2017, 6 years after purchase, well out of warranty, and still repaired free of charge, and I got a new back panel because they wanted to be nice. I think they made AMD pay for it, I am not sure. Apple did not even issue new fan speed profiles in any of its software updates to protect against excessive heat, why would they, they gladly repaired your friend's Macbook for a second time, costing them nothing and betting on your friend getting a new shiny Macbook. Business 101?

Who knows, this could pan out the same way with the R5, let's say there is indeed a component somewhere in the R5 that cannot stand the heat and that its temperature cannot be closely monitored with the current R5 design, it could be anything, some auxiliary chip, the EVF, even something as simple as a capacitor. If it dies prematurely, then they could let that part supplier pay. The big 'if' of course is whether that part would run outside its specification.

Apple did not repair it for free the second time.  They offered to fix it for a cost but this was not considered worth it because it was not a real fix to the underlying problem but just replacing the component with the same component which then probably would die again.

 

In my opinion the failure rate of professional equipment should be such that in normal use most people would never experience it during the lifetime of the product. I would consider e.g. 1% failure rate in 7 years of daily use as limit of acceptability for a tool that manages data. I've lost data because of equipment failure - a motherboard broke and damaged hard drives, and when attaching the backup to make copies, it would break that too! (This was not an Apple computer but HP.) In my opinion these equipment should be designed in such a way that data loss (which is equal to loss of work) is extremely unusual.

[Electroholic Anonymous]

3 hours ago, horshack said:

Could I ask a big favor? Could you possibly run 8K recording for an hour, using battery pulls as necessary? Also, after you reach the hour could you immediate take a photo? I'll post a batch file that will extract the EXIF temperatures from all the files and put them into a .CSV file I can graph with Excel. Typing on my phone right now so don't have access to my computer this moment. Thanks again!

What is the purpose of the photo? Is this related to your black frame experiments that I only yesterday read up on? If so, do you need it to be black frame, with the lens cap? or with the mount cap? Or does it extract more information from the jpeg compared to the MP4s?, or more information that could be extracted later on?

Ah, now that I writing this I think I get it, if I would end the last run with a battery pull, then we would miss out on the last, and probably hottest temperature reading. I was planning on ending the last recording like a normal person, so the last mp4 would hold the last and latest temperature, unless it is measured at the start of the recording of the MP4 which I doubt. Long story short, I will take the jpeg. I am just curious what your thoughts are for having the jpeg.

[horshack]

53 minutes ago, Electroholic Anonymous said:

The Sandisk 512GB CFE card throttled only once, during this 8000 photos I took within an hour. I was so giddy that I could not even count how fast the buffer was clearing, until some 45 minutes into the shoot it really slowed down, to say only twice (yes, only twice) the speed of my a7R4 clearing its buffer to 300MB/s SD cards. Never ever have I experienced a fault or slow down of a CFE card in my R5 during recording video that is not attributable to a non-formatted power interrupted card.

The slowdown may have been related to internal garbage collection rather than thermals - I would be surprised if a CFE card throttled shooting just stills. But again it's something to keep an eye on.

Just sent you a PM about getting the .CSV data in text form.

[gt3rs]

Just now, horshack said:

The slowdown may have been related to internal garbage collection rather than thermals - I would be surprised if a CFE card throttled shooting just stills. But again it's something to keep an eye on.

Just sent you a PM about getting the .CSV data in text form.

Coping an almost full 512 Sandisk CFE USB-C reader to internal M2 SSD did go in trothing mode after around 400 GB.... 7 time slower.. was all Canon RAW video files

[horshack]

Just now, Electroholic Anonymous said:

What is the purpose of the photo? Is this related to your black frame experiments that I only yesterday read up on? If so, do you need it to be black frame, with the lens cap? or with the mount cap? Or does it extract more information from the jpeg compared to the MP4s?, or more information that could be extracted later on?

Ah, now that I writing this I think I get it, if I would end the last run with a battery pull, then we would miss out on the last, and probably hottest temperature reading. I was planning on ending the last recording like a normal person, so the last mp4 would hold the last and latest temperature, unless it is measured at the start of the recording of the MP4 which I doubt. Long story short, I will take the jpeg. I am just curious what your thoughts are for having the jpeg.

Yep exactly, it's to get the final temperature, although with the 8K clips chopping up at only 47.5 seconds it's probably not needed. It would be more useful for the other long-run tests though, like 4K HQ.

I haven't established whether the EXIF temperature in the video files is sampled at the start or end of the recording - I would presume it's at the end when all the EXIF is built but I don't know for sure. I'm going to do an experiment on my RP today to determine this.

[Electroholic Anonymous]

1 minute ago, horshack said:

I would be surprised if a CFE card throttled shooting just stills. But again it's something to keep an eye on.

I would NOT be surprised, at all, because the R5 is much hotter shooting a high number of stills in short succession than shooting 8K RAW, that includes, the grip, the back and the top of the R5, as well as the CFE card. It was the only time that I was concerned that the temperature might damage my card. If not for this, I would not have attempted my first 47 minute 8K RAW test, and neither the test that I am starting within an hour for at least an hour long.