Canon EOS R5 / R6 overheating timers, workarounds, and Magic Lantern

[leslie]

I hope you people can make this camera work for you otherwise thats alot of money to be throwing around. Personally i feel, Since the 60d and later cameras, ML have proved beyond reasonable doubt that canon could do better but refuse to. This r5 debacle is more proof canon does not deserve my money, not that i had that kinda money anyway  I can't help but think anyone buying a r5 is rather naive, hoping that canon will come good, or ML can fix it, is living on a prayer. Its 2020, i can understand a person being born with a disability but surely no camera should be made with one. 

[zerocool22]

2 hours ago, wolf33d said:

If my R5 ever ships (ordered day 1 - lol) I will keep it and keep this firmware if they ever cripple it. 
With the new firmware improvement it’ll be almost good enough for my use (very short clips) and if have an issue I can always pull the battery and start again. It sucks to do that on a 4000$ camera but for the package it offers I’ll do it.

Yeah I was thinking the same, but then I started thinking: I might miss good shots due to the fact im afraid to take many shots out of fear of it overheating. So it will prolly be creative limiting your use of the camera.

[Matthew19]

can confirm 1.1.1 works with date change and battery pull method to reset timer. 

[Emanuel]

5 hours ago, wolf33d said:

If my R5 ever ships (ordered day 1 - lol) I will keep it and keep this firmware if they ever cripple it. 
With the new firmware improvement it’ll be almost good enough for my use (very short clips) and if have an issue I can always pull the battery and start again. It sucks to do that on a 4000$ camera but for the package it offers I’ll do it.

LOL Man, you have no idea what I'm doing to get one available now! : D Without this one, I'd NEVER buy it as well more EF glass...

What's the most friendly Canon web corner after all? ;- )

[SteffenH]

Andrew, haven´t posted in years .. just read the headline "Important bird shot" in your most recent r5-video and rolled on the floor laughing! Great work on the whole r5 incident! *thumbsup*

[Ilkka Nissila]

43 C is regarded as the limit of temperature that is safe for human tissue so that it's not damaged due to the heat. That's what is used in medical devices as the safety limit: during use, the device must not heat the tissue temperature above 43 C. If the temperature of the skin does rise above 43 C then you can expect some damage, though I don't know how quickly it happens or how severe it is. Roger writes "we ran it for 18 minutes before getting a temp warning. The hottest part of the camera was the back behind the LCD door (43°C / 109°F)". So it seems that the 43 C tissue damage threshold is indeed what Canon used to design their overheating algorithm to protect primarily against, and they're running it pretty close.  (Canon also mention controls for internal temperatures as a secondary consideration in the CineD interview).

 

Of course, if you don't hold the camera in your hands during recording and use a tripod or gimbal, then it wouldn't cause burns. But they seem to have designed the protection for those in mind who do their videos hand-held. My guess is that the 43 C could actually be written into some countries legislation or regulations as well, so Canon might not have any choice about it. I'll try to find some information on this.

[visionrouge]

11 minutes ago, Ilkka Nissila said:

. But they seem to have designed the protection for those in mind who do their videos hand-held. My guess is that the 43 C could actually be written into some countries legislation or regulations as well, so Canon might not have any choice about it. 

That explanation do not make sense. When using an external recorder; the camera is also getting super hot and Canon have never limit recording when you do not have a card inside.
Without any hack, you can record forever.

So any exercise to explain that electronic overheat and need an hour to cool down or  that people get burned and other fantasy do not stand when you start talking "external recording" without time limitation.

How all electronics inside the R5 will not fries if you keep recording externally for hours under a body that you can barely touch, but suddenly need limitations, even when using inside a fridge?

Canon need to explain me this very funny temperature management standard.

Either the camera is not safe running at hot temperatures and external recording should be limited.
Either the camera is safe for long recording and the timer should go.



 

[Ilkka Nissila]

14 minutes ago, visionrouge said:

That explanation do not make sense. When using an external recorder; the camera is also getting super hot and Canon have never limit recording when you do not have a card inside.
Without any hack, you can record forever.

So any exercise to explain that electronic overheat and need an hour to cool down or  that people get burned and other fantasy do not stand when you start talking "external recording" without time limitation.

How all electronics inside the R5 will not fries if you keep recording externally for hours under a body that you can barely touch, but suddenly need limitations, even when using inside a fridge?

Canon need to explain me this very funny temperature management standard.

Either the camera is not safe running at hot temperatures and external recording should be limited.
Either the camera is safe for long recording and the timer should go.



 

Here is an article showing that human cells die rather quickly in extended exposure to higher than 43 degrees Celsius:

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4188373/

 

When human cells are at 44 C for a period of 1 hour, only about 10% of the cells survive (Fig. 1).

When using external recorder, Canon may have assumed that the camera is no longer hand-held but used on a tripod, since it would be pretty clumsy to hand-held the camera with recorder attached. Thus there is not as much likelihood of long-term exposure of the videographer's hands to the damaging heat when using an external recorder. And yet Canon have probably considered the needs of professional videographers here, and allowed external recorder to be used for that reason. A consumer is less likely to be informed about low-temperature burns and may be hand-holding the camera as a matter of course, whereas a professional may be using tripods and external recorders more frequently. It's a balance act between safety for the typical user and utility in a professional environment.

 

[visionrouge]

1 minute ago, Ilkka Nissila said:

When using external recorder, Canon may have assumed that the camera is no longer hand-held but used on a tripod, since it would be pretty clumsy to hand-held the camera with recorder attached. 

Like external recorder on top of camera-hand held do not exist? 
We are not living in the same planet.

More people try to explain canon choice, less it makes sense.

All Canon explanations was about electronics that can't hold warm temperature since day one. I's call "overheating" on all their documentation for a rason.

But as this do not work with the external no limit recording aspect; there is now a new idea floating around about your skin getting burn, but only for internal recording not external cause the camera is on tripod?! And that's why removing the timer is so dangerous? 
But nowhere to be seen on the R5 user manual a specific warning on external recording and heat? Why?

Just because you want to defend Canon and their infamous timer choice?

If you believe such fairy tale;I have some interesting business proposal for you investing on offshore account that will brings you 20% interest in 3 minutes...

And please explain me the "overheat" compare to "do hot to touch"
Why do they even call it "overheat" and not display a "to warm to touch" logo? Why we only talk about this now and not when it all started?

And, wait. Explain the 1 hour cooling time? Especially if it's only to not get people burn by touching and nothing to do with internal temperature.
One hour to be able to touch it again?
Really?

It's time to wake up.





 

 

[Video Hummus]

If this isn’t proof enough that we don’t want our cameras to get “cloud” anything then I don’t know what is. Imagine your camera phoning  home over cellular network everytime you turn it on. 

[Andrew Reid]

Even if it turns out Canon's PR person isn't actually bullshitting us via a rival site that seeks to discredit their own customer's research at every turn, what is pretty much indisputable is the arrogant off-colour way Canon has handled the situation from start to finish.

The time to offer an explanation for the overheating times was much earlier, and directly to customers like me.

Instead every statement they come out with is a PR disaster. Admitting in the latest they designed a camera which comes close to offering low temperature burns?

If temps above 43C on the external casing are a problem, or voltage chips get too hot over 70C, I've had no evidence to support this as a user, even after 1 hour of 8K recording.

I will never have a practical use for recording 1 hour of 8K, so the real test for me is 4K HQ.

If in that mode I get burnt by the camera or it crashes and melts... I'll happily hold my hand up and say "Canon - you are right and not full of bullshit after all".

[BTM_Pix]

15 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

If in that mode I get burnt by the camera .. I'll happily hold my hand up and say "Canon - you are right and not full of bullshit after all".

Well, more like gingerly hold it up under those circumstances rather than happily 😉 

[horshack]

2 hours ago, Ilkka Nissila said:

43 C is regarded as the limit of temperature that is safe for human tissue so that it's not damaged due to the heat. That's what is used in medical devices as the safety limit: during use, the device must not heat the tissue temperature above 43 C. If the temperature of the skin does rise above 43 C then you can expect some damage, though I don't know how quickly it happens or how severe it is. Roger writes "we ran it for 18 minutes before getting a temp warning. The hottest part of the camera was the back behind the LCD door (43°C / 109°F)". So it seems that the 43 C tissue damage threshold is indeed what Canon used to design their overheating algorithm to protect primarily against, and they're running it pretty close.  (Canon also mention controls for internal temperatures as a secondary consideration in the CineD interview).

 

Of course, if you don't hold the camera in your hands during recording and use a tripod or gimbal, then it wouldn't cause burns. But they seem to have designed the protection for those in mind who do their videos hand-held. My guess is that the 43 C could actually be written into some countries legislation or regulations as well, so Canon might not have any choice about it. I'll try to find some information on this.

If limiting skin exposure to heat is the primary goal of Canon's thermal management they should be able to easily distinguish between hand-held and tripod use via either the IBIS gyros or the camera level sensors, and use that information to establish the appropriate temperature thresholds. With some user warnings to handle the scenario of moving between tripod and hand-held use. 

[wolf33d]

1 hour ago, horshack said:

If limiting skin exposure to heat is the primary goal of Canon's thermal management they should be able to easily distinguish between hand-held and tripod use via either the IBIS gyros or the camera level sensors, and use that information to establish the appropriate temperature thresholds. With some user warnings to handle the scenario of moving between tripod and hand-held use. 

Exactly. Plus a MacbookPro gets hot where you put your wrist. So are some phones. Yet the biggest company in the world did not bother with that. 
Be careful with cell temperature thing. Cells die when they reach a certain temperature yes which does not mean it's the case if you touch a camera body with your hands. It takes more heat and time for the cells to reach that temperature. 
And nobody has the camera in the hands for hours straight. You let it rest at your neck, use a tripod, gimbal, pack it etc. 

All in all, all that Canon could do if this was true was sending a warning once the camera is hot (instead of shutting down) to let the user know the camera can get hot to the touch. Let me use it on a gimbal for how long I want. Let me do lots of short recording : YES the camera will not have time to cool, but my cells will and I will be fine no worries. 

That's a kind of BS excuse. 

In the interview Canon says they have never crippled any product because it would be foolish to want a customer buy a 5000$ cinema camera instead and the customer is more likely to switch to competition than buy a Cine camera. It's absolute BS that they did not cripple any product. They did, like many other manufacturers in many industries. There are many reasons for a customer not to switch brands like being already invested in the system for example or loyalty (which is high at Canon) 

 

[Emanuel]

Just got information now...

firemen are simply fucked up! : P

[Resonance]

1 hour ago, Andrew Reid said:

Even if it turns out Canon's PR person isn't actually bullshitting us via a rival site that seeks to discredit their own customer's research at every turn

Today a large part of the social media comments, articles and reviews on controversial subjects are written by diverse armies of paid shills, "fact-checking", creating fake news, exposing "fake news" with fake news, whitewashing their employers and smearing critics. This was documented by The Intercept in 2014 and by political campaigners in 2016. Corporations like Google, Twitter and Facebook, powerful private interest groups (Club of Rome, climate change, global taxes, vaccinations etc) and state agencies, spend hundreds of millions for this modern and extended PR.

Canon last year spent over 400 million dollars on public relations and advertising. Almost double what the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation pays, which is in the media all the time. The latter has given over $2 million to groups such as fact-checker Africa Check ($1.48 million), media company Gannett ($499,651), and the journalism school the Poynter Institute ($382,997). In return, when you google "gates foundation fact checkers millions", the second link goes to the Poynter Institute-owned fact-checker Politifact.com, where their "factcheckers" whitewash the Gates Foundation.

The only reason we ever knew that, for example, the Clinton campaign was hiring professional shills to pose as real Hillary supporters online in order to deceive people and manipulate public discourse is because they were forced to disclose it due to FEC regulations.
https://extranewsfeed.com/media-war-toolkit-the-seven-deadliest-weapons-against-establishment-propaganda-d535c311d0eb

[Ilkka Nissila]

1 hour ago, horshack said:

If limiting skin exposure to heat is the primary goal of Canon's thermal management they should be able to easily distinguish between hand-held and tripod use via either the IBIS gyros or the camera level sensors, and use that information to establish the appropriate temperature thresholds. With some user warnings to handle the scenario of moving between tripod and hand-held use. 

It's a little bit more complicated than that. While video users often put cameras on rigs, and fluid heads have stick handles that can be used to pan the camera without touching the camera itself, still photographers who use long lenses on tripod usually have their hands on the camera while shooting on tripod (and they probably shoot in a similar way when recording video, at least when the subjects are moving, since they typically use gimbal heads instead of the more video-oriented fluid heads). So there are circumstances where identifying whether it is safe for the camera surface to heat above 42-43 C might not be so simple.

 

That Andrew was able to make the CFexpress card slow down (and camera display slow card warning) during hack-enabled extended recording suggests that the CFexpress temperature is also close to limits. Allowing long recording times when the card slot is not used and some of the heat generation is moved to the external recorder seems like a sensible practical compromise. Canon may continue to make refinements to the overheating management algorithm. But it doesn't seem like the hopes expressed in this forum and what Canon would consider a good design for the typical user of this camera are going to align.

[Andrew Reid]

If CFExpress card is a problem... erm, use an SD!

4K HQ and 8K all yours to enjoy with an SD card!

If the external temp gets a bit uncomfortable a cage would help. Aluminium would spread and disperse the heat and allow it to more or less go away, it acts as a radiator.

In my opinion, until I see evidence, this low temperature burn PR line is simply more half-truths from Canon to cover up the cripple hammer

You only have to look at the kind of site they chose to voice the bollocks through to know that it is a PR front.

Not heard from an engineer yet have we?

[horshack]

1 hour ago, Ilkka Nissila said:

It's a little bit more complicated than that. While video users often put cameras on rigs, and fluid heads have stick handles that can be used to pan the camera without touching the camera itself, still photographers who use long lenses on tripod usually have their hands on the camera while shooting on tripod (and they probably shoot in a similar way when recording video, at least when the subjects are moving, since they typically use gimbal heads instead of the more video-oriented fluid heads). So there are circumstances where identifying whether it is safe for the camera surface to heat above 42-43 C might not be so simple.

 

That Andrew was able to make the CFexpress card slow down (and camera display slow card warning) during hack-enabled extended recording suggests that the CFexpress temperature is also close to limits. Allowing long recording times when the card slot is not used and some of the heat generation is moved to the external recorder seems like a sensible practical compromise. Canon may continue to make refinements to the overheating management algorithm. But it doesn't seem like the hopes expressed in this forum and what Canon would consider a good design for the typical user of this camera are going to align.

I can't think of many scenarios where a user shooting video with the camera locked down on a tripod would have to touch the camera for anything other than a momentary dive into the menu, the LCD for focusing, and perhaps the body during panning. Canon talked about low-temperature burns - the camera wont be a thermal risk if the user only touches it intermittently and for a few seconds at a time. It's not hot like a potato.

Regarding CFE, Canon has multiple warnings in the R5 manual about handling hot cards that have been removed from the camera. That can occur for stills shooting as well, esp long duration burst-shooting.

[Andrew Reid]

It is a mildly warm camera... Simply adding a cage with wooden grip would allow you to shoot handheld without touching any of the hot parts - if that is, it ever went above 43C. No evidence it does. Also, the aluminium cage would disperse the heat, radiate it to the air, and the wooden grip wouldn't conduct much heat towards your hand - so that kind of simple cage is a win-win all over really.