Canon Cinema EOS C70 - Ah that explains it then!

[IronFilm]

17 hours ago, SteveV4D said:

To be fair RS on the R5 isn't that bad and DR could improve with the cLog3 update.  The R5 fails not for the sensor, or performance, but by its software induced limits on recording times.  Its a shame that Canon does a give and take policy with its gear and the C70 is no different.  

So you admit the C300mk3/C70 sensor is a better choice for S35 4K? Even if it is only better by a smaller margin, I'm glad that Canon put the better sensor into the C70.

Plus how sure about the R5's drawbacks being software limitations and not hardware limitations? Yes, research here on EOSHD does indicate it has some degree of software limitations. But could it really handle for instance a 12hr day during the peak of summer heat filming nonstop a music festival? (once those return! Ha. In a post-COVID19 world?) I'd expect the Canon C300mk3/C70 could. 

[IronFilm]

16 hours ago, Kisaha said:

I may go full in Canon this round, still waiting for the GH6

Wait for the Sony FX6 as well. 

15 hours ago, Mmmbeats said:

When your starting point for the grade is a better quality image than the RAW coming out of previous cameras, I doubt you'll be missing much in terms of gradibility. 

Exactly!
Heck, even the internal 10bit for some cameras is better than the same camera's raw output. (am looking at you Sony FS7!)

15 hours ago, SteveV4D said:

Its a great camera otherwise let down by a few things.  

The Canon C70 as an A Cam is aimed at low (perhaps mid) budget professional work (ultra low budget work uses mirrorless/DSLRs for their A Cam). They don't need or want raw in 95% of the shoots. 

14 hours ago, Hywel Phillips said:

Panasonic by contrast have always had the reputation of giving you one specific thing that everyone else's camera lacks at a given price point. For DVX100 it was progressive scan. For HVX200 it was solid state recording and HD (of a sort). For the AF100 it was slowmo in HD. It persists to this day - I have a GH5 purely because it offers PROPER anamorphic shooting without costing the same as an Alexa. (I only wish their AF was up to scratch for video). 

Doesn't matter when Anamorphic AF lenses don't exist!

14 hours ago, Hywel Phillips said:

And Arri's has always been targeting the top end, but I can't afford one so I don't know how they differentiate their cameras. 

They differentiate by being the best (or at least, thought of as that) when it comes to image quality. 

And by being incredibly good when it comes to overall workflow/ecosystem for the productions they're aimed at.

 

12 hours ago, Kisaha said:

this is a camera we were waiting for a few years now. I am surprised there is not more interest on the forum..

It is strange, until I remember a key lesson from economics:
"People have unlimited wants". 
And that people will blur the line between "wants" and "needs".
(this is one of the key reasons why socialism will always fail. Because even if you can give everything that people want/need right now, that won't be enough! As people will have expectations inflation, and will have a new higher level of demands. Thus you always need a way to allocate scarce resource efficiently, which is exactly what price signals to. You abolish price signals, and you abolish the ability to effectively allocate resources to get the most out of them)
 

[IronFilm]

11 hours ago, Mmmbeats said:

The various strategies also reflect how companies attract customers.  Varicam is Panasonic's successful cinema range at this point.  Despite it being a decent camera I doubt the EVA1 has been very successful.  I'm not exaggerating when I say the only ones I've seen in the wild are the ones I've personally rented. 

I have a couple of friends with an EVA1, but yes, they're very rare. 

Still think Panasonic should have made an EVA1 MFT, so they could have benefited from their massive GH series fan base. 

 

11 hours ago, Mmmbeats said:

Perhaps the smartest strategy was Canon in saying let's make limited products for entryists and fully-facilitated products for arrived professionals, but provide a roadmap that takes them from A to B (to C...).

Exactly!!! That is why Panasonic should have made their Panasonic EVA1 with a MFT Mount (perhaps a locking MFT as the "base mount", but shipped out with a PL Mount on top). 

And even their eventual Panasonic Varicam LT Gen2 could have this locking MFT as the "base mount". (imagine being able to use your Fujinon MK zooms on a Varicam!!)

 

12 hours ago, SteveV4D said:

With Canon it feels like specs are all over the place.  No consistent pattern across their line with what they offer.   The R5 should have the video recording specs of the C70 and the C70 those of the R5.  Then the R5 wouldn't need an overheating cripple to stop people from using it professionally and the C70 would be video camera of the decade.

Why though? The C70 people (the low/mid budget professional shooters, or the high budget people needing a B / C Cam) don't need all the R5 specs. When people are buying for their business, they tend to be somewhat more rational in their purchases. 

While R5 buyers are easily swayed by flashy headlines (8K! Raw!), that then the YouTube pimps latch onto to push the R5 onto their followers. It totally makes waaaaay more sense to put 8K raw into a very expensive mirrorless camera, than into a low budget professional cinema camera. 

2 hours ago, mrtreve said:

I understand why the lack of raw is a downer for enthusiasts who really want to tinker, but I have to admit the C70 is pretty compelling work tool.

You could load a backpack with the camera, 2 BPA-60s, some SD Cards and a couple of lenses and you could go shoot a job and make it look easy. You've got inexpensive media, decently compressed codecs and a battery that lasts 400 minutes. For a lot of projects, that's worth more than the gains from shooting raw.

The best way forward (for me at least) is to delineate the two needs by owning a cinema camera and a video camera. Then you're not driving yourself crazy by trying to make one do the other's job

Yup, you could own a Canon C70 *AND* a BMD UMP for less than a C300mk2 costs. 
(not that I'd recommend it, I still think these two cameras overlap with each other too much)
 

[Lux Shots]

On 9/24/2020 at 12:01 PM, PannySVHS said:

No SDI. What a shame. Some directors like to see an image on their monitors, right! For image quality only I wouldnt buy it. For that price it needs to have SDI.

I second that, 2x S5 plus one Mamiya 645 speedbooster and two middle format lenses- Hallo IMAX! :),  plus a dummy FD adapter and two Canon FD lenses instead.

How about a YAWG thing with battery for the S5, Panasonic?

Just add a Ninja with the SDI expansion kt and now you're cooking!

[JR Lipartito]

On 9/26/2020 at 5:12 AM, independent said:

Green screen/vfx. Unpredictable lighting. "Artists." R3d users. Me and my R5

This. There are a lot of users who benefit from raw, but Canon doesn't want YOU to buy a c70.

What I hate about Canon is not that they segment their cameras, but they aggressively segment their users as well. "Here's the perfect run-and-gun camera equipped with our top-of-the-line sensor, but if you want raw, you should settle for the beefier C200 with an inferior sensor, or hey, if you want the best of both worlds, you can have the C300 mkIII for twice as much, but it's a big boi, so you'll probably still need a c70 for those gimbal shots, just not in raw." I find that kind of artificial segmentation which limits use-case very distasteful. Like Panasonic with the S1H and S5, they should pack every new camera with every technology it is capable of and let the users decide which one suits their needs. 

IMO if  90% of the C300 mkiii's features can be offered on the c70 at half the price, then raw doesn't cut it as the differentiating factor worth the extra 5 grand. Moving forward the focus on the C300 should be it's physical features like SDI and expandability through other modules for professional studio work. Is that really worth twice the cost? Let the market decide. 

 

[JR Lipartito]

18 hours ago, Kisaha said:

Suddenly all cameras have to have raw?! 12 months ago that wasn't even the norm. 3 years ago? 5 years ago? 

Problem is the c70 didn't come out last year, and this is the year when raw quietly became a standard feature on professional hybrid cameras. So for a new camera to be announced as a bridge between hybrids and cinema cameras, and at a price point higher than many raw-shooting hybrids, one of which Canon actually makes (flawed as it is), raw is a glaring omission. 

 

 

[SteveV4D]

4 hours ago, IronFilm said:

 

The Canon C70 as an A Cam is aimed at low (perhaps mid) budget professional work (ultra low budget work uses mirrorless/DSLRs for their A Cam). They don't need or want raw in 95% of the shoots. 

 

6 years ago many would say they neither needed or wanted 4K, or 10 bit...  if we keep to that attitude of what is, nothing would change or improve in the Industry at all.  Why do Photographers make such good use of RAW and Videographers are stuck shooting H264.  If Videographers need and want H264 and H265, why do they transcode or use proxys.....? 

A Professional Cinema camera should look to have at least one codec that wasn't a deliverable codec.  H264 and H265 are what you use to deliver video files to YouTube.  Its not ideal for editing, whatever spin is given on it. 

[JR Lipartito]

On 9/25/2020 at 8:43 AM, currensheldon said:

I love Panasonic and honestly, this is what the S1H should have been. 

To me, this is nearly the perfect do-almost-everything camera. Been what I have been wanting and asking for for 5 years (ever since I wanted to upgrade from the C100 II). 

The fact that this can do 120fps with the full-frame FoV with speedbooster and all in 10-bit 422 is amazing. Would be competing with my S1H, but with Canon lenses, Canon AF, internal NDs, two XLRs on body, full-frame FoV in all modes, and that C300 III sensor (which is amazing, even though the S1H is also amazing IQ), The S1H really only has IBIS on this. 

Don't forget raw, 6K, EVF, weather sealing, and the ability to toggle between Full-frame and APS-C at the push of a button rather than needing to swap out an adapter...overall I think the S1H speaks to different needs so it can still effectively compete with both the c70 and a7s III. In fact the only other camera that can offer all of the above features is Panasonic's own S5 (not going to count the R5 because it's such a mess...) 

The one extra thing I think Panasonic should have done to make the S1H a true "video-first" hybrid would be to replace the mechanical shutter with an ND filter. Hopefully enough people are asking for that and they'll deliver for the S1H mark II. Unlike Canon and Sony, Panasonic seems to listen to user feedback!

Also there was a wild rumor some time ago that Panasonic was developing an "S1V" which would basically be a Sony A7S III-alike with a 12mp sensor and 4K 120fps. What is interesting though is that this rumor preceded any leaks of the a7S III specs, so now I really wonder if it may have had some substance... But on the other hand, Panasonic might be happy enough with their resolution advantage for now. 

[SteveV4D]

3 hours ago, IronFilm said:

 

Why though? The C70 people (the low/mid budget professional shooters, or the high budget people needing a B / C Cam) don't need all the R5 specs. When people are buying for their business, they tend to be somewhat more rational in their purchases. 

While R5 buyers are easily swayed by flashy headlines (8K! Raw!), that then the YouTube pimps latch onto to push the R5 onto their followers. It totally makes waaaaay more sense to put 8K raw into a very expensive mirrorless camera, than into a low budget professional cinema camera. 

 

You're over generalising consumers.  Many here on this forum were looking at the R5, Professionals included and those same people will look at the C70.  I am one of them.  I would argue that 8K is a feature more for a hybrid as Photographers will use it for short bursts to get stills.  Features like the upcoming RAWlite upgrade is however less an R5 feature and more what I would expect on the C70 and it makes no sense for a hybrid to have it and a dedicated video camera not to.  I don't care if its a low budget, mid budget or high budget, its laughable to even defend a company that offers Video RAW on a hybrid that is crippled by overheating, but passes on it on a dedicated cinema camera.  

This lottery of specs that Canon seems to dip in and out of for their cameras is perhaps the most frustrating aspect of their company.  C200 gets RAW but not a 10 bit codec.  Buy a C300 if you want both or the R5, except that overheats, so people say, if you want long recordings, you should buy a video camera, except when you do, you're not getting the same features the R5 has.  

[IronFilm]

33 minutes ago, SteveV4D said:

6 years ago

I'm not talking about 6yrs ago, I'm talking about right now. 

Unless they're shooting with a RED (which doesn't offer them other options), then low/mid budget professional DoPs are generally speaking not shooting in raw. 

 

[SteveV4D]

Just now, IronFilm said:

I'm not talking about 6yrs ago, I'm talking about right now. 

Unless they're shooting with a RED (which doesn't offer them other options), then low/mid budget professional DoPs are generally speaking not shooting in raw. 

 

I was using a 6 year old analogy to explain the current attitude to shooting RAW today... sorry if that was confusing... 🙄

And low/mid budget are often using external recorders...  to circumvent the internal codec.  

Actually I came across a small video shoot in my home town of Reading.  They were using Pocket 6Ks....  and shooting RAW, so not all low/mid budget shooters are avoiding it.

[maxmizer]

In my opinion, the price is high ... for most potential buyers...

[newfoundmass]

26 minutes ago, maxmizer said:

In my opinion, the price is high ... for most potential buyers...

$5500 for a Canon cine camera isn't high. Yes, you're paying the Canon tax, and yes there are cameras out there with better specs and for less, but there is a large group of folks that won't leave Canon and this is an incredibly enticing camera to get people to enter their cine lineup that haven't already. 

[IronFilm]

2 hours ago, SteveV4D said:

And low/mid budget are often using external recorders...  to circumvent the internal codec.  

I'd seriously struggle to remember the last time I was on a shoot with an external recorder. (except for my own no budget stuff I shoot as a "DoP" with my ancient Sony PMW-F3)

The last time might have been a few years ago with someone who had brought the brand spanking new Varicam LT, but hadn't yet quite been able to afford all the media to go with it. (P2 cards are pricey!)

Or a couple of years before that, on a C100 web series shoot. Oh wait, there might have been a GH4 shoot between those two? 

Anyway, the point is I very rarely see external video recorders being used as the main production recordings. (they are used now and then for playback though, integrated with the director's monitor)

[IronFilm]

2 hours ago, SteveV4D said:

Actually I came across a small video shoot in my home town of Reading.  They were using Pocket 6Ks....  and shooting RAW, so not all low/mid budget shooters are avoiding it.

The exceptions, not the norm.  

1 hour ago, newfoundmass said:

$5500 for a Canon cine camera isn't high. Yes, you're paying the Canon tax, and yes there are cameras out there with better specs and for less, but there is a large group of folks that won't leave Canon and this is an incredibly enticing camera to get people to enter their cine lineup that haven't already. 

Exactly, it is in line with what C100 series was at release. And a lot cheaper than the C200 was originally.

[ac6000cw]

57 minutes ago, newfoundmass said:

$5500 for a Canon cine camera isn't high. Yes, you're paying the Canon tax, and yes there are cameras out there with better specs and for less, but there is a large group of folks that won't leave Canon and this is an incredibly enticing camera to get people to enter their cine lineup that haven't already. 

Exactly, and it's also priced be potentially attractive as an alternative to the A7S III and SH1.

It's pretty obvious with the releases of the R5 and R6 and now this that Canon are going all out to defend their low/mid pro-level market against further inroads from Sony. It's going to be an interesting battle to watch...

[seanzzxx]

1 hour ago, IronFilm said:

The exceptions, not the norm. 

This is all anecdotal but in my experience the Pocket 4K is EVERYWHERE in the low budget circuit, with its entry price of 1400 dollars and great image.

[Django]

As a Canon EOS Cinema owner since the C100 (which I still own alongside C200) this is my dream Canon cine cam.  Scratch that, it's my dream cine cam period. I will be selling off my C100/C200 for the C70. 

Of course perfect it is not, I will be missing Canon RAW Lite, EVF, SDI & custom LUTs.

I'll be keeping my FS7 for gigs where EVF, SDI & LUTs are mandatory.

I think I might also upgrade EOS R to R5 for RAW/8K B-cam shots.

If anyone in EU is looking for a good deal on a mint boxed C200 with CFast media, HMU! 

[maxmizer]

I agree for Canon Fans ...
It will be interesting to know the numbers, excluding large companies and renters, how many amateurs will buy adapters and new lenses, along with this new camera ... and I'm afraid in the end I have seen this script...

[Kisaha]

4 minutes ago, Django said:

As a Canon EOS Cinema owner since the C100 (which I still own alongside C200) this is my dream Canon cine cam.  Scratch that, it's my dream cine cam period. I will be selling off my C100/C200 for the C70. 

Of course perfect it is not, I will be missing Canon RAW Lite, EVF, SDI & custom LUTs.

I'll be keeping my FS7 for gigs where EVF, SDI & LUTs are mandatory.

I think I might also upgrade EOS R to R5 for RAW/8K B-cam shots.

If anyone in EU is looking for a good deal on a mint boxed C200 with CFast media, HMU! 

Finally, after a few years of disagreeing about the C200, Canon delivered the goods!

There will be a huge depreciation of C200 cameras in the wild.

The C70 is all I need for sure. We agree here. This is an unprecedented release. The form factor seems amazing, I have the Focus so I do not need SDI, T/C is there also(!). Everything seems amazing! I am not sure about the cost, it is 7000€ with the adapters here, and I am keeping the Pocket I think, just for..

For the other issues some brought:

Not once I have used Braw on my Pocket. Most people use it just because it is there, not because it is needed.

Most of the productions are using FS7, and recently, starting to use FX cameras. Noone shoots raw for TV, and we started delivering some 4K content in 2019. Most things are still 1080p delivered. I am talking about professional TV stuff on the greatest channels, not local stations which still use camcorders mainly and C100mkII at the best.