Canon Cinema EOS C70 - Ah that explains it then!

[Mmmbeats]

1 hour ago, herein2020 said:

I have the GH5 with the XLR adapter and a MixPre6 as well as a C200. I think the XLR adapter or XLR straight into the C200 is great for a single mic or a mic and a backup mic, but I learned the hard way just a few days ago that if you have multiple speakers the Mix-Pre is way better. It was a pain to manually audio duck in Davinci Resolve the two speakers that I had; the stereo mix out of the MixPre for 4 speakers was less work than manually mixing two speakers from the onboard audio.

 

For the C70 I really don't consider the mini XLR a big deal, as you mentioned it is not as bad as mini HDMI. One thing I wouldn't do though is leave the adapters plugged in, I always feel like things sticking out of a camera port will weaken the circuit board over time as they get wiggled and moved in your bag. I'd just load up on about 6 adapters, two go in my emergency kit in my car (along with memory cards, random power cables, etc), two stay in the bag with the camera at all times (since they are so small) and two go in my dedicated audio case where I keep all of my cables, the MixPre, etc. 

 

Also, for my particular use case, this camera would primarily be a gimbal camera, audio would not be that important to me.

That's really good advice, thanks.

[Video Hummus]

4 hours ago, Mmmbeats said:

Just to temper the excitement a bit - is anybody seeing any good footage from this camera yet?
 

The first people to get their footage out always seem to be the camera stores, and unfortunately their films are not great.

The film that seems to show what the camera can do so far has been the Give This Heart a Pen one, which is an over-saturated look I'm not super fond of, but it demonstrates the cameras capabilities well.

A lot of my excitement is based on seeing C300III footage and assuming or hoping that a similar level of excellence can be achieved, tempered by the fact that some of the C300 footage was shot in RAW.

There is some footage in this one.

 

[IronFilm]

17 hours ago, Mmmbeats said:

The real moral of this story, as I'm sure @IronFilm will agree, is to always hire a proper sound recordist!  But the other thing it taught me is that you need the right tools for the job.

Of course! Hire professionals. 

But yes, even if you're doing it OMB and handling audio yourself, a camera like a Sony FS7 *is* easier to use for audio than a Canon EOS M50. 

Now I'm not saying you couldn't get just as "acceptable" audio on a M50 as a FS7 in ideal conditions, but I am saying the FS7 makes your life easier. (which means less mistakes and screw ups)

This difference might only be small, it might only make your life 5% easier (although the likes of NDs, SDI, waveforms, and more, makes your life easier by far more than just 5%!), but if you've got thousands of dollars of client's money riding on this shoot and you not screwing up the audio, then that 5% difference starts to really matter a lot to you! And suddenly the difference between renting an M50 or a FS7 now feels like nothing at all.

[IronFilm]

17 hours ago, bwhitz said:

Well I'm a professional and something like the Pocket4k/6k is perfectly fine. I've had literally ZERO issues. Add a V-mount... like you would to literally ANY other professional cine cam. You think people shooting Red or Arri's complain that everything doesn't fit into a tiny-package and they have to add almost every accessory? What exactly are you shooting? Have you seen the camera's they shoot movies with?  

Almost everyone shooting with an ARRI (except perhaps the AMIRA) is shooting with a crew, they'll have someone else doing the sound, at least a 1st AC (if not a 2nd too, and perhaps more). Odds are decent there will be a Gaffer/Grip there too. 

They have the man power to handle the extra hassle. 

While the FS7/C300 is great for OMB or small crews, that need to move fast. 

[Oliver Daniel]

I couldn’t help myself. I’ve pre-ordered one. It looks absolutely perfect for my usage case. Image looks stunning. 

A7SIII isn’t going anywhere though. It will be a key asset for a lot of shoots. 

[SteveV4D]

2 hours ago, Video Hummus said:

There is some footage in this one.

 

Great video review.  I found the footage to be a little too washed out, but thats the style of grade he wanted, and not necessarily a reflection on the final image. 

Suggestion is there AF works as well with some EF lenses via the speedbooster, which I find encouraging.  It means I don't have to invest so quickly in RF lenses and can make do with what I have.

I won't preorder as this is Canon and after the R5, I'm still wary of any further catches, but on spec, this camera has a lot to offer.  Few things I wish were different, but well...  Still debating this with the Komodo.   But I've got time to wait and see what early reactions when the C70 is finally out there.  

[SteveV4D]

4 hours ago, Mmmbeats said:

I've used the DMW (if I'm getting it's name right) and it's a really good unit.  I'll probably pick one up even if I get an external recorder, and even if I demote the GH5S.  The thing is though, I'm pretty sure you are still going to want to strip the camera from time to time, whether for transport, or for a top handle, or for a smaller package.  This makes it one more thing to manage and set up, one more thing to forget to pack! (I only very rarely have a packing incident!).

 

The C70 has a top handle I believe that can be forgotten.   😁😁   I don't think one less external unit for audio makes your life easier regarding items you need for your filming.  Or at least for me.  I always run 3 to 5 cameras on a shoot, plus various recorders, lapel mics, zoom mics, loads of different cables and adaptors, gimbal, drone in some cases, loads of tripods.   Getting the C70 won't cut down on my gear.  I'll still be running it with other cameras. 

If I get it, it will be for the excellent AF, ND filters, Canon colour in a small camera unit that is dedicated to video use and not a hybrid.  Making my life easier it won't.  🤣🤣

[currensheldon]

10 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Of course! Hire professionals. 

But yes, even if you're doing it OMB and handling audio yourself, a camera like a Sony FS7 *is* easier to use for audio than a Canon EOS M50. 

Now I'm not saying you couldn't get just as "acceptable" audio on a M50 as a FS7 in ideal conditions, but I am saying the FS7 makes your life easier. (which means less mistakes and screw ups)

This difference might only be small, it might only make your life 5% easier (although the likes of NDs, SDI, waveforms, and more, makes your life easier by far more than just 5%!), but if you've got thousands of dollars of client's money riding on this shoot and you not screwing up the audio, then that 5% difference starts to really matter a lot to you! And suddenly the difference between renting an M50 or a FS7 now feels like nothing at all.

It's so true. People freak out about this spec or that spec, but as a whole package, the C70 is WAY more usable than any mirrorless could ever be (as any dedicated video camera would be). 

If I wanted to use the R5 (or any mirrorless) vs the C70, the main differences would be:

- ND Filters - I would need to carry multiple NDs or have high-end variable NDs (not allowing me to use a lens hood, which I greatly prefer) or get a mattebox. You break your ND filter (AND your backup) and your video shoot is done. Just like that. 
- Audio - I would need to have a MixPre-3 or some other recorder. 
- Monitor - People say the C70 monitor is as good as C500/300, so that's good enough for me. Most mirrorless cameras are not that good, so usually add a monitor for pro work. 
- Batteries - Would need a lot more batteries, therefore a lot more chargers and more weight in the long run. Plus extra batteries for the audio recorder and monitor, both of which are pretty power hungry.
- Timecode - Other than the S1H (which I love), there is no way to sync timecode in mirrorless cameras unless you have a Tentacle Sync, which is great, but is a few more things to charge, keep an eye on, and your audio is now one long very loud static track. 

Suddenly, using something like the C70 is looking about 50-60% easier and smoother. And there is only one failure point: the C70. With the other setup, there are multiple fail points that may not sink the shoot, but make your life extremely difficult.

 

I've used mirrorless cameras on productions for one reason: SIZE. Great for gimbals and being discrete. The C70 changes that - and is the first real video camera to do so. That's a HUGE bonus in my book. 

 

 

 

[SteveV4D]

4 hours ago, currensheldon said:

It's so true. People freak out about this spec or that spec, but as a whole package, the C70 is WAY more usable than any mirrorless could ever be (as any dedicated video camera would be). 

I agree and why I am trying to shift my gear away from hybrids and onto dedicated video cameras.  Until now there wasn't much choice in this price bracket, but this is a step forward and one I hope other manufacturers will take.

That said, hybrids still have advantages over the C70.  EVF, better weather sealing, fullframe (so making full use of those fullframe RF lenses), IBIS, plus some output external RAW.  Panasonic even has its own audio adaptor, so the S1H is still a healthy competitor to the C70.  Though its poor AF really let's it down.  

For me the biggest advantage for the C70, as you pointed out, is the ND filters and also the wide range of external controls.  Though in the video review posted earlier in the thread, I saw the reviewer was changing settings by controls onscreen and using an external monitor.  So maybe an external monitor is still an advantage when using this camera, given its 3.5" screen size.  I do like the 5" screen size of the Pockets, though its useless outdoors and doesn't tilt; but its a nice size to work with however.

[IronFilm]

5 hours ago, currensheldon said:

- Timecode - Other than the S1H (which I love), there is no way to sync timecode in mirrorless cameras unless you have a Tentacle Sync, which is great, but is a few more things to charge, keep an eye on, and your audio is now one long very loud static track. 

 

Not just the S1H but the GH5S as well!
 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rg-dPBmY1rc

 

 

 

[PannySVHS]

S1H ticks a lot of boxes of the X70 other than internal NDs and AF. Codecs and the image itself are of proven quality. Would love to see a comparision. The older Canon C300ii is infamous for its plastic look at higher isos and lowlight due to nasty noise reduction. S1H has an artefact free cinematic image which betters the C300ii easily in certain situations.  S1H might be the better choice for those who dont need AF or NDs and who want to shoot 6K on a virtual sensor size of approx. 50 x 34mm with a Pentax  or Mamyia middle format speedbooster or with its full physical size of 36 x 24 mm.                                                                                         

[Mmmbeats]

I'm wondering which of the codec options is going to be the highest quality option, all things being equal?

I suspect that the headroom afforded to the Long-GOP codecs is going to make them superior for most situations than the All-I.

Here are the bitrates and recording times (per 64Gb) for the top settings:

XF-AVC All-I - 410 Mbps (19 mins)

XF-AVC Long-GOP - 260 Mbps (30 mins)

MP4 / H.265 - 225 Mbps (35 mins)

It seems to me that the headroom afforded the Long-GOP codecs is more generous (proportional to their compression ability) than the All-I.

I'm only going by my experience of Panasonic's implementation of compression in which 400 Mbps All-I is virtually visually identical to 150 Mbps Long-GOP in most situations.

Also, H.265 is touted as being much more efficient than H.264, so I would expect the headroom afforded it may well yield the best results overall.

Obviously there are times when you would want to use All-I in any case (as I was recently reminded when shooting moving underground trains having forgot to switch back from Long_GOP!  😬).

Any thoughts?

[independent]

6 hours ago, PannySVHS said:

S1H ticks a lot of boxes of the X70 other than internal NDs and AF. Codecs and the image itself are of proven quality. Would love to see a comparision. The older Canon C300ii is infamous for its plastic look at higher isos and lowlight due to nasty noise reduction. S1H has an artefact free cinematic image which betters the C300ii easily in certain situations.  S1H might be the better choice for those who dont need AF or NDs and who want to shoot 6K on a virtual sensor size of approx. 50 x 34mm with a Pentax  or Mamyia middle format speedbooster or with its full physical size of 36 x 24 mm.                                                                                         

The C70 and C300iii have a completely different sensor and image processing than the c300ii's--or any other camera's. The Dual Gain Output is the key technological advantage. Gerald Undone, Dave May, and Jake Ratcliffe from CVP all clearly showed how the DGO helps retain color and pull detail from the shadows or "underexposed" images, without the artifacts seen in other cameras.

Even the new Sony a7s iii, while amazing for its high ISO sensitivity, is surprisingly noisy in the shadows, as noted by Brandon Li BTS/review.

And internal NDs aren't absolutely necessary, but It certainly sucks to fiddle with screw-on filters, fight image degradation with variable NDs, or spend thousands on matte boxes and filters. 

I think that's the biggest compromise w/ the R5. NDs (in the adapter) or the quiet, stabilized RF lenses.

For the C70, the biggest compromise is Full Frame (in the speed booster) or the quiet, stabilized RF lenses.

 

 

[Video Hummus]

Really hope Canon continue down this path of small, somewhat affordable EOS Cinema cameras.

The R5 is a compromised camera but it makes more sense to me now with the release of the C70.

A Canon photo-hybrid R5 with a C70 as dedicated video camera starts to make a lot of sense in a real-world usage for a solo or small crew. A solo operated can lean heavily onto having internal NDs, onboard multi-channel audio, and really great AF, letting us focus on other things like story and getting the shots. The R5 can fill the role as a excellent photo camera with the same excellent AF but still be a useful b-camera. Plus the lenses can be shared. You can still shoot HQ 4K in ASPC mode on the R5 and it looks excellent without being timer-limited. And even though the 4KLQ is not spectacular for YouTube it’s good enough. If you run EF glass you get the useful Nd adapter that is like having built-in ND somewhat. 

[herein2020]

16 hours ago, currensheldon said:

It's so true. People freak out about this spec or that spec, but as a whole package, the C70 is WAY more usable than any mirrorless could ever be (as any dedicated video camera would be). 

If I wanted to use the R5 (or any mirrorless) vs the C70, the main differences would be:

- ND Filters - I would need to carry multiple NDs or have high-end variable NDs (not allowing me to use a lens hood, which I greatly prefer) or get a mattebox. You break your ND filter (AND your backup) and your video shoot is done. Just like that. 
- Audio - I would need to have a MixPre-3 or some other recorder. 
- Monitor - People say the C70 monitor is as good as C500/300, so that's good enough for me. Most mirrorless cameras are not that good, so usually add a monitor for pro work. 
- Batteries - Would need a lot more batteries, therefore a lot more chargers and more weight in the long run. Plus extra batteries for the audio recorder and monitor, both of which are pretty power hungry.
- Timecode - Other than the S1H (which I love), there is no way to sync timecode in mirrorless cameras unless you have a Tentacle Sync, which is great, but is a few more things to charge, keep an eye on, and your audio is now one long very loud static track. 

Suddenly, using something like the C70 is looking about 50-60% easier and smoother. And there is only one failure point: the C70. With the other setup, there are multiple fail points that may not sink the shoot, but make your life extremely difficult.

 

I've used mirrorless cameras on productions for one reason: SIZE. Great for gimbals and being discrete. The C70 changes that - and is the first real video camera to do so. That's a HUGE bonus in my book. 

 

 

 

Am I the only one who misses the electronic level found in most MILCs and DSLRs? I don't understand why it is missing from the C200 and I would assume it is also missing from the C70. I religiously use the level in my GH5 to double check my gimbal horizon and when setting up on a tripod especially since I offer real estate video tours where a level horizon is critical. 

It's so annoying to pay $5500+ for a body and not get this basic functionality.

[Lux Shots]

4 hours ago, Mmmbeats said:

...Obviously there are times when you would want to use All-I in any case (as I was recently reminded when shooting moving underground trains having forgot to switch back from Long_GOP!  😬).

Any thoughts?

What issues did you see using IPB in that scenario? I have yet to see an example of a difference between the two when shooting in H264.  Now, H265 looks worse probably because of 4:2:0 vs 4:2:2.

[hyalinejim]

The classic illustration of that is an explosion of confetti: IPB falls apart. 

[EphraimP]

42 minutes ago, independent said:

And internal NDs aren't absolutely necessary, but It certainly sucks to fiddle with screw-on filters, fight image degradation with variable NDs, or spend thousands on matte boxes and filters. 

The value of internal ND for run and gun documentary film making cannot be overstated, imho. Just Monday I was shooting doc footage in communities ravaged wildfire. Having to constantly clean the VND, swap it between lenses, fight with its compatibility with different lens hoods, and realize I don't yet have a step up ring for a new lens I wanted to use. Talk about a PITA when I'm constantly moving and trying to get critical shots. I'd say internal ND is worth close to a grand, easy. A good VND is several hundred bucks; you probably need at least two to cover the range you want, and are you going to buy multiple copies so you don't always have to swap between lenses? 

 

36 minutes ago, herein2020 said:

Am I the only one who misses the electronic level found in most MILCs and DSLRs? I don't understand why it is missing from the C200 and I would assume it is also missing from the C70. I religiously use the level in my GH5 to double check my gimbal horizon and when setting up on a tripod especially since I offer real estate video tours where a level horizon is critical. 

It's so annoying to pay $5500+ for a body and not get this basic functionality.

I didn't realize that C-series bodies don't have an electronic level. That's a huge bummer.

[Mmmbeats]

57 minutes ago, Lux Shots said:

What issues did you see using IPB in that scenario? I have yet to see an example of a difference between the two when shooting in H264.  Now, H265 looks worse probably because of 4:2:0 vs 4:2:2.

For quick changing frames it's a disaster.  I was shooting tightly framed footage of a moving carriage (from the side).  There were massive blocky compression artifacts.

Here's a funny thing - I was quite stressed out about this, because it was clearly a mistake on my part, and something I had anticipated but forgot to compensate for.

The shot, which was acquired vertically funnily enough, was part of a large-scale museum installation.

As is, I'm assuming, general practice, I sent a low-quality file to the client for approval. 

To my horror, this low-quality file was programmed into the installation 'show' (the central controlling mechanism), and the client subsequently neglected to even download the fully mastered file from me.  I kept reminding him that he had the wrong file up, but he kept insisting that it looked fine (they were working to a tight deadline, with lots of other physical and media-based elements to install).

Anyways, the exhibition has had rave reviews (including the train segment specifically) and just ended up winning a very prestigious industry award! 😅

So perhaps sometimes our pursuit of perfection is somewhat idle!   

[Mmmbeats]

30 minutes ago, EphraimP said:

The value of internal ND for run and gun documentary film making cannot be overstated, imho...

Yep.  Was going to post similar.  I've had the step up ring from the outgoing lens stay stuck on the VND a few times during a change.  I've been in a VND vs lens cap conundrum a few times.  Also, there's no zero ND option with VND; you have to keep screwing the thing on and off.  Annoying.

Plus internal ND is closer to fixed ND than variable ND (complicated by the 'extended range' thing you get with Canon).  From what I see the colour rendition is fantastic. 

I wonder if they are able to further tweak the internal filters knowing that they are optimising for just one sensor?  For example they could add a bit of IR suppression I'm guessing?

In any case it's a blessing, and as you say - worth quite a bit in the heat of fast-moving acquisition.