Canon Cinema EOS C70 - Ah that explains it then!

[herein2020]

1 hour ago, EphraimP said:

I didn't realize that C-series bodies don't have an electronic level. That's a huge bummer.

 

I think most of the cinema cameras from most of the big companies don't have it.  I know the EVA1 and FS7 have it but I don't think the Reds, Arris, etc. have it or the FS9. With Canon you don't get a digital spirit level until the C700.

 

1 hour ago, Mmmbeats said:

For quick changing frames it's a disaster.  I was shooting tightly framed footage of a moving carriage (from the side).  There were massive blocky compression artifacts.

Here's a funny thing - I was quite stressed out about this, because it was clearly a mistake on my part, and something I had anticipated but forgot to compensate for.

The shot, which was acquired vertically funnily enough, was part of a large-scale museum installation.

As is, I'm assuming, general practice, I sent a low-quality file to the client for approval. 

To my horror, this low-quality file was programmed into the installation 'show' (the central controlling mechanism), and the client subsequently neglected to even download the fully mastered file from me.  I kept reminding him that he had the wrong file up, but he kept insisting that it looked fine (they were working to a tight deadline, with lots of other physical and media-based elements to install).

Anyways, the exhibition has had rave reviews (including the train segment specifically) and just ended up winning a very prestigious industry award! 😅

So perhaps sometimes our pursuit of perfection is somewhat idle!   

 

I had something similar happen, I had a beach scene in the middle of the day for a music video and used a variable ND filter that I had tested the day before and was sure it was up to the job.  After shooting the scene and loading the footage into DR there was a distinctive x pattern in the footage. Nothing I did would completely remove it. In my previous day's testing the sun wasn't as bright as at the beach so I hadn't needed to turn the ND filter up that far.

 

Long story short I sent the customer the completed video, did what I could in the color grade to try to remove the x, and waited for the negative feedback. Turns out she loved it and no one has ever said anything about it.  

 

The worst part about it is I have no way of preventing it from happening again unless I buy another variable ND filter or switch to fixed filters. I have to just guess at where the pattern starts to show and it is impossible to see until after the LUT is applied in post. This particular ND filter does not have hard stops so I can't even mark where it starts to show.  Now I use it only as a last resort for events and use fixed ND filters for music videos.

 

Onboard ND filters are amazing and I still smile as I push the ND filter button on my C200. People who dismiss the onboard ND filters as adding major value to a camera have probably never used them.

 

I still might cancel my C70 pre-order, at least until work picks back up; the camera will still be available. Maybe the R6 will have improved to the point to where it is viable again (who am I kidding), now that Panasonic has seen everything that is coming out they can make the GH6 even better, or maybe the C50 is really all I need at a lower price point.

[docmoore]

Just stack a 2 or 4 stop ND with your variable so you do not reach the X point of the crossed polarizers ... which

usually occurs near the top filtration point. You can fine tune the filtration but at a lower level.

[Mmmbeats]

28 minutes ago, docmoore said:

Just stack a 2 or 4 stop ND with your variable so you do not reach the X point of the crossed polarizers ... which

usually occurs near the top filtration point. You can fine tune the filtration but at a lower level.

Not sure about that.  That's 3 bits of colour-tainted polarised glass before the light even hits the front of the lens.  I'm not keen!

[herein2020]

16 minutes ago, Mmmbeats said:

Not sure about that.  That's 3 bits of colour-tainted polarised glass before the light even hits the front of the lens.  I'm not keen!

I agree, a lot that can go wrong...lets not forget trying to find a piece of dust or dirt amongst all those layers of glass. The current ND filter adds a slight shift to green, but it's fixable in post, the image is also a bit softer but it works for the cinematic look.

[EphraimP]

23 minutes ago, herein2020 said:

I agree, a lot that can go wrong...lets not forget trying to find a piece of dust or dirt amongst all those layers of glass. The current ND filter adds a slight shift to green, but it's fixable in post, the image is also a bit softer but it works for the cinematic look.

Plus, the more filters you stack, the more you risk the possibility of miss-threading one while working fast and then having to spend half an hour trying to wrench them apart or damaging the outside of them with pliers. Don't ask me how I know.

[docmoore]

Point taken ... I do not use variables ... buy a set of decent NDs and meter the scene ...

If your ND adds a shift to green ... throw it away ... get one with hard stops and decent color.

 

[IronFilm]

6 hours ago, EphraimP said:

The value of internal ND for run and gun documentary film making cannot be overstated, imho. Just Monday I was shooting doc footage in communities ravaged wildfire. Having to constantly clean the VND, swap it between lenses, fight with its compatibility with different lens hoods, and realize I don't yet have a step up ring for a new lens I wanted to use. Talk about a PITA when I'm constantly moving and trying to get critical shots. I'd say internal ND is worth close to a grand, easy. A good VND is several hundred bucks; you probably need at least two to cover the range you want, and are you going to buy multiple copies so you don't always have to swap between lenses? 

You can see how easily a camera can justify having a price an extra two grand higher (convenience factor + quality VND cost + spares + adapters) just simply by having internal NDs, let alone any other additional feature in the C70!
 

[herein2020]

29 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

You can see how easily a camera can justify having a price an extra two grand higher (convenience factor + quality VND cost + spares + adapters) just simply by having internal NDs, let alone any other additional feature in the C70!
 

I definitely know its value....I think my problem is getting customers that agree with me and are willing to pay for it. That's a major problem in my area, customers who want everything for nothing and they all seem to have a friend who just bought a camera that will do it for free.  But...I digress, that's another rant for another day.  The C70 does look fantastic, it still feels too much like a C200 replacement for me vs. a GH5 replacement.

[IronFilm]

16 minutes ago, herein2020 said:

I definitely know its value....I think my problem is getting customers that agree with me and are willing to pay for it. That's a major problem in my area, customers who want everything for nothing and they all seem to have a friend who just bought a camera that will do it for free.  But...I digress, that's another rant for another day.  The C70 does look fantastic, it still feels too much like a C200 replacement for me vs. a GH5 replacement.

Are you doing this full time? Or is it just a part time thing and something else is your real money earner? 

As if you're doing this full time, even at the super low budget end, and you're only getting say $25K/yr, then it is still easy to justify owning a C70. (or similar)

Let's say you have the C70 for just three years, the C70 is only $3.5K extra than a Panasonic GH5 (or a7mk3, or Z6, or whatever). On a per year basis you're only spending an extra $1K-ish!! Even only really low revenue of just $25K/yr that's still easily justifiable to buy a C70.
 

[Kisaha]

4 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Are you doing this full time? Or is it just a part time thing and something else is your real money earner? 

As if you're doing this full time, even at the super low budget end, and you're only getting say $25K/yr, then it is still easy to justify owning a C70. (or similar)

Let's say you have the C70 for just three years, the C70 is only $3.5K extra than a Panasonic GH5 (or a7mk3, or Z6, or whatever). On a per year basis you're only spending an extra $1K-ish!! Even only really low revenue of just $25K/yr that's still easily justifiable to buy a C70.
 

Depending the market.

25K euros here are top money.

Most directors earn as much, or even less, and we are talking nationally televised prime time products.

Most DoP I know earn between 15-20K. 

Very popular artists have 2-5.000€ videoclip budgets (the whole clip), e.t.c

It is most likely top wedding videographers (only the top, but we have a few as the country is a wedding destination) to earn a lot more than DoPs and directors here! And those usually use A7 cameras.

Also, for some poore coutries 5.500$ is the whole family budget.

At the top of the world, rich E.U nations, NZ, CND, U.S, Japan, Australia, I would have bought a C3mkIII, and a C70 and a few others (A7Siii, R5) just for fun.

[IronFilm]

1 hour ago, Kisaha said:

Most DoP I know earn between 15-20K. 

I'd hope the typical pro Greek DoP is doing better than 15K Euros per year! That's worse than the average income for Greece. 

[ntblowz]

Well NZ is not really rich country vs Oz, we earn quit bit less but we pay much more for living expenses and the gears

[maxmizer]

3 hours ago, IronFilm said:

I'd hope the typical pro Greek DoP is doing better than 15K Euros per year! That's worse than the average income for Greece. 

Here you have to earn at least 35,000 euros to have a net salary as a worker ... the average taxes are 48%

I think that in Greece they have a lot of state debt to pay...

[herein2020]

11 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Are you doing this full time? Or is it just a part time thing and something else is your real money earner? 

As if you're doing this full time, even at the super low budget end, and you're only getting say $25K/yr, then it is still easy to justify owning a C70. (or similar)

Let's say you have the C70 for just three years, the C70 is only $3.5K extra than a Panasonic GH5 (or a7mk3, or Z6, or whatever). On a per year basis you're only spending an extra $1K-ish!! Even only really low revenue of just $25K/yr that's still easily justifiable to buy a C70.
 

I am fortunate that I do not do this full time or right now I wouldn't even be considering a C70 with the way the market is right now. Very few photographers/videographers in my area that I know do it full time, except for a few of the larger production shops there's just not enough money in it to quit your day job. 

I know what you mean about the cost of the C70, I've done the numbers; I guess it just irks me when I bring $20K of equipment to a shoot for a client that is complaining about $400USD. The only thing that pays real money in my area is corporate video work (interviews, promo videos, etc.)  which doesn't come along that often especially now.

 

6 hours ago, Kisaha said:

Depending the market.

25K euros here are top money.

Most directors earn as much, or even less, and we are talking nationally televised prime time products.

Most DoP I know earn between 15-20K. 

Very popular artists have 2-5.000€ videoclip budgets (the whole clip), e.t.c

It is most likely top wedding videographers (only the top, but we have a few as the country is a wedding destination) to earn a lot more than DoPs and directors here! And those usually use A7 cameras.

Also, for some poore coutries 5.500$ is the whole family budget.

At the top of the world, rich E.U nations, NZ, CND, U.S, Japan, Australia, I would have bought a C3mkIII, and a C70 and a few others (A7Siii, R5) just for fun.

 

Those are crazy numbers to me, I'm in the US and its definitely better here at least in the larger cities if you do it full time.  Many days I feel though that photography and video really are a dying art. I think I have met maybe 1 or 2 total photographers/videographers who do this full time because there is just no money in it. The cell phone has completely killed this market and now pictures are rated by how many half naked women are in them or how popular the people are in them vs the artistic composition or technical complexity. A cell phone video horribly exposed with no audio of Kim Kardashian will be viewed by more people than a Hollywood blockbuster with a $50M budget.

 

6 hours ago, Kisaha said:

At the top of the world, rich E.U nations, NZ, CND, U.S, Japan, Australia, I would have bought a C3mkIII, and a C70 and a few others (A7Siii, R5) just for fun.

 

You think that until you are here in the US. I could technically afford those things but to me I still treat this as a business, and I know buying all of that gear that will not pay for itself would not make sense business wise.  I do love gear as much as the next person and have to fight the urge all the time to buy new things; if customers paid more I wouldn't hesitate to buy more but the reality is most customers just aren't willing to pay for quality these days.

Another bad trend in my area is that customers are more willing to hire a wedding photographer vs a videographer and when they do hire a videographer it is with whatever is left over from the budget for the wedding photographer.  So these are the things I think about when something like the C70 comes along.

[Mmmbeats]

On 9/29/2020 at 2:03 PM, Video Hummus said:

There is some footage in this one.

 

I notice he uses the H.265 mostly.  Possibly briefed to do that by Canon.  I reckon it might turn out to be the best codec for acquisition.  Better than the All-I even,

[Mmmbeats]

On 9/29/2020 at 12:10 PM, herein2020 said:

I have the GH5 with the XLR adapter and a MixPre6 as well as a C200....

By the way, I wasn't being sarcastic, I really will take heed - particularly about unplugging the mini-XLR adapters.  That's a useful heads-up.

[Kisaha]

23 hours ago, IronFilm said:

I'd hope the typical pro Greek DoP is doing better than 15K Euros per year! That's worse than the average income for Greece. 

The typical, no, the highest paid, yes, a handful (maybe a dozen or less) much better, but still in years of recession and/or covid they do also struggle.

I did a small turn in my career, I work as an assistant director for a TV series now (low budget one but on a very high profile TV channel, I just moved from the prime time as a soundman to the early afternoon zone as an assistant director. Now officially I have done everything in business!).

The DoP earns around 1700-2000€ net per month (depending his years in business) and the first contract is 5 full months with an option for 2 plus months (that is the season here, 7-8 months in total, so do make the math.

I actually earn even less now, but I just wanted to conquer the last castle!

I talked about the C70 with my DoP, he wants to suggest 2 camera buys for a documentary production company which has a contract with a satellite channel, so, sure money for at least the next 5 years, and when I suggested the C70 he told me that they probably do not want to pay more than 3.000€ per camera!!

Everything here is shot with FS7 cameras, and the others (C300, Alexas, Red) on specialised projects or higher end, which is tiny.

[IronFilm]

2 hours ago, Kisaha said:

I did a small turn in my career, I work as an assistant director for a TV series now (low budget one but on a very high profile TV channel, I just moved from the prime time as a soundman to the early afternoon zone as an assistant director. Now officially I have done everything in business!).

Amazing! Everything? Been a lead actress on a show too?
 

2 hours ago, Kisaha said:

Everything here is shot with FS7 cameras, and the others (C300, Alexas, Red) on specialised projects or higher end, which is tiny.

If they can afford FS7/C300/Alexa/REDs, then surely they can afford the Canon C70....

[Kisaha]

2 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Amazing! Everything? Been a lead actress on a show too?
 

If they can afford FS7/C300/Alexa/REDs, then surely they can afford the Canon C70....

Haha! No, never in FRONT of a camera!

Assistant director on such a low budgeted, but with high expectations project is like a death wish!

We do 9-15% in the early vening zone (it airs everyday), and they want 12-18%, which is just impossible, but they always ask for the impossible anyway!

Most things are shot with FS7. Some live shows, morning shows, talk shows with studio cameras (usually Sony), and outside productions mostly with FS7, but they can trickle down to GH5 (because of the 10bit codecs). Some use A7sII also.

Biggest productions and high profile ads with Alexas and Reds, not as many as you think!

In between there is some market for Canon cameras, C100mkII - C200 and C300mkII, but you realize that Sony dominates the market.

Everything lesser, happens with hybrids and maybe Pockets (small and very low documentaries, small/low budgeted corporates - Canon C maybe, internet videos - Canon C maybe), and the indie crowds using whatever, even action cams.

[aaa123jc]

On 10/1/2020 at 8:43 AM, herein2020 said:

I definitely know its value....I think my problem is getting customers that agree with me and are willing to pay for it. That's a major problem in my area, customers who want everything for nothing and they all seem to have a friend who just bought a camera that will do it for free.  But...I digress, that's another rant for another day.  The C70 does look fantastic, it still feels too much like a C200 replacement for me vs. a GH5 replacement.

The description of clients is so true. Many simply don't value the skill of a videographer. They think they hire us because we own a camera and if they do, they can easily do our jobs. How hard can it be, when they're already making videos or taking stills with their smartphone? 

To convince a client the value of quality gear and skillful videographer is very hard until they can see the result. I have a client who thought I charge too much so he decided to hire his friend to film the next corporate event. Then he knew I didn't get paid because I owned a big and bulky FS5. 😆

Anyway, I don't own any camera at the moment because the lack of work. I sold many lens as well. I can't justify having them sitting on the shelf, collecting dust, while I am struggling to pay rent. I go to rental house when I have a paid job to do.