Canon Cinema EOS C70 - Ah that explains it then!

[jpleong]

1 hour ago, currensheldon said:

For me, Canon's RF Mount has been a bit frustrating because using EF lenses actually gets you some really useful features on RF cameras. For the EOS R, R5, or R6, it's being able to use the amazing variable ND filter adapter, making swapping lenses so much easier. And now, for he C70, you can get full-frame FoV and an extra stop of light by using a speedbooster. The RF lenses are amazing, but since they are full-frame, give you some awkward focal lengths on Super35. The 24-70mm would be amazing with the C70 since it has IS, but a 35mm FoV on the wide end isn't wide enough. And the 15-35mm just won't have enough reach.

If I do end up getting the C70, then I think for doc-work, I would definitely snag the speedbooster and a 24-105mm f4, which would have the same FoV as on a full-frame and give me a f2.8 from 24-105mm. This is what I did with the Sony FS5 when I had it, and it's nearly perfect for doc-work. Either that for a 24-70mm (Canon or Sigma with IS) and have a 24-70mm f2 - pretty great lensing options there.

Can you help me understand your experience a bit when you say "awkward focal lengths on Super35"? Like, under what conditions are you shooting?

The filmmakers I studied under using Super 35, its equivalent sensor size, or a 4/3rds sensor always used focal lengths that were readily compatible with common "full frame" lenses. For doc interviews, I was taught 50mm/35mm (Super 35 and 4/3rds, respectively) for A Cam, 35mm/24mm for B Cam with wider-than ~50º field of view kind-of a niche thing because of perspective distortion. Because of that experience, I've always been happy shooting APS-C with 16-35mm, 24-70mm, and 70-200/300mm L zooms in my bag (I also have a 10-18mm STM but I never use it for doc work).

[currensheldon]

3 hours ago, jpleong said:

Can you help me understand your experience a bit when you say "awkward focal lengths on Super35"? Like, under what conditions are you shooting?

The filmmakers I studied under using Super 35, its equivalent sensor size, or a 4/3rds sensor always used focal lengths that were readily compatible with common "full frame" lenses. For doc interviews, I was taught 50mm/35mm (Super 35 and 4/3rds, respectively) for A Cam, 35mm/24mm for B Cam with wider-than ~50º field of view kind-of a niche thing because of perspective distortion. Because of that experience, I've always been happy shooting APS-C with 16-35mm, 24-70mm, and 70-200/300mm L zooms in my bag (I also have a 10-18mm STM but I never use it for doc work).

Sure - I guess I'm mainly talking about observational, verite documentary filmmaking (or any run-n-gun situation), where you don't know where you are going, what the light conditions will be, and what type of space you'll be in. And you may not have time to switch lenses. And it is up to you to cover a short scene so that an editor can make a decent 2-3 minute scene out of what you capture (wides, closeups, multiple angles, etc). 

So, for those scenarios, 24mm on the wide end is close to a must and at least 70mm on the long end. So, on a full-frame camera (or at least on a full frame field of view) a 24-70mm f2.8 is nearly perfect. But on Super35, you would need something like a 16-55mm f2.8, which Canon doesn't make and the 17-55mm they do make doesn't even cover most of their modern Super35mm sensors (C200, C300) and is also a cheap, plastic-y lens. Their 18-80mm T4.4 is great, but pretty slow aperture for a lens that expensive and on a non full-frame camera. 

Add in that mots 24-70mm lenses do not have stabilization (which is also imperative for the situations I detailed above), and you have very limited choices.

I don't know why each manufacturer (Canon and Sony, mostly, but also Panasonic (Varicam LT and EVA-1) doesn't have a professional 16-55mm f2.8 lens with IS to go with their Super35mm video camera - seems like it should have been released alongside any of the C-series or FS5/7 series. 

 

[currensheldon]

With all that being said, a speedbooster takes care of the issue on the C70, because now you can use EF full-frame lenses, either the 24-105mm lenses that have great IS and still get you f2.8 or snag a 24-70mm and have an f2. Pretty great. 

[jpleong]

31 minutes ago, currensheldon said:

Sure - I guess I'm mainly talking about observational, verite documentary filmmaking (or any run-n-gun situation), where you don't know where you are going, what the light conditions will be, and what type of space you'll be in.

...

I don't know why each manufacturer (Canon and Sony, mostly, but also Panasonic (Varicam LT and EVA-1) doesn't have a professional 16-55mm f2.8 lens with IS to go with their Super35mm video camera - seems like it should have been released alongside any of the C-series or FS5/7 series. 

 

Thanks! That's helpful.

Yeah, I was super thrilled to see that Canon finally made a 24-70mm f/2.8L IS but bummed it was RF-mount, only, as I've switched primarily to Fujifilm but still shoot EF bodies. It's unfortunate that each successive product only inches closer to what "we" wanted years ago (so many of us were asking Canon for stabilized f/2.8L standard zooms when the EF 24-70mm f/4L IS came out). It seems like each manufacturer making a top-quality, "fast", standard-range zoom with OIS would be a no-brainer for sales?

[independent]

It depends on 1) what your projects needs are and 2) how you like to shoot. I really liked the Sigma 18-35mm so the 15-35mm RF feels very comfortable (shooting oversampled crop mode on the R5). So I'd recommend the RF 15-35mm for the C70 over the 24-70mm, which I'd prefer for full frame. 

Why not speedboosted w/ EF? Because of Nano USM, which makes the on-top mic far more usable instead of just relegated to scratch mic. EF is dead to me.

[currensheldon]

7 minutes ago, independent said:

It depends on 1) what your projects needs are and 2) how you like to shoot. I really liked the Sigma 18-35mm so the 15-35mm RF feels very comfortable (shooting oversampled crop mode on the R5). So I'd recommend the RF 15-35mm for the C70 over the 24-70mm, which I'd prefer for full frame. 

Why not speedboosted w/ EF? Because of Nano USM, which makes the on-top mic far more usable instead of just relegated to scratch mic. EF is dead to me.

And therein lines the problem with the RF Mount right now. The RF lenses are AMAZING, many of the main zooms are all stabilized, and are just wonderfully built, designed, and more modern AF systems than the EF lenses. However, to get the most out of the RF-mount cameras for video, it makes a lot of sense to use EF glass. For th R5 and R6, so you can use the variable ND adapter (rather than having a variety of variable NDs for the front of you lenses and dealing with the issues that brings (like not being able to use a lens hood, difficult in wet weather, etc), and for the C70, you can use a speedbooster to get a full-frame field of view and extra stop of light and shallower depth of field when needed/wanted. 

I'd love to have a system that allows me to use all the beautiful mirrorless lenses, especially in RF and L-Mount, but those are pretty much just for full-frame or don't have dedicated cinema cameras that use them (L-Mount). Tough decisions, but perhaps EF glass for another 3-years and shooting with the C70 isn't too bad. haha

[Mmmbeats]

Question - how is the external video from the C70 likely to perform compared to the internal codecs?

How does it work?  Is the external signal uncompressed prior to encoding by the recorder?  Is there likely to be an image-quality improvement?

I realise that I don't really know how this all works.  For example - what is the theoretical maximum bitrate?  Is that even a well-worded question? 

[ntblowz]

Brochure with all the cinema lens, so C100MKII and C70 are similar in weight?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/umzhekf05fagba4/Cinema_EOS_Comparison_Sheet_200922.pdf

[Kisaha]

Everytime I read about the "full frame" look, I literally turn green!

It is a blasthemy to just ignore that 99% of the total planet output, maybe more, was shot on a smaller format for so many decades, and noone ever complained.

It is the new trend, I get it, but do not pretend it is a problem or there are not options/solutions.

In run n gun/verite style we usually use Canon C and FS cameras, and I know shows using even smaller sensored cameras (even main news channels, DW, Reuters and the such, I have seen them using camcorder styled cameras).

We get it, some are so young that 5DmkII is all they knew, but don't try to oversell it, it is just a hybris to our trade.

Surprisingly the C70 is heavier than the C100mkII. This is a dense camera!

[ntblowz]

C70 screengrab from FB group (Andrzej Fryda).  Canon colour is magic source.

[Mmmbeats]

These are the best I've seen the camera handle highlights so far.  Shot on H.265, which as I've been saying, may turn out to be the best codec option.  Also at only 135Mbps apparently.

Very promising.

[ntblowz]

7 minutes ago, Mmmbeats said:

These are the best I've seen the camera handle highlights so far.  Shot on H.265, which as I've been saying, may turn out to be the best codec option.  Also at only 135Mbps apparently.

Very promising.

 

Yeah, I m definitely keen to upgrade to C70 from R5 next year once I gouge of how the market goes, I dont need the fancy still option of R5.  (editing should be way better too on computer lol)

[Mmmbeats]

From the same set (Andrzej Fryda) :
 

[EphraimP]

Trigger finger is itching. I keep telling myself to wait for Black Friday/Cyber Monday madness to see if a C70 deal materializes. Besides, the camera won't be shipping until then anyway.

So, here's the big question... Will the pre-order list be so big that these are hard to get for a period of time after release, or will Canon release enough so that there will be availability in early Dec?

[Kisaha]

41 minutes ago, EphraimP said:

Trigger finger is itching. I keep telling myself to wait for Black Friday/Cyber Monday madness to see if a C70 deal materializes. Besides, the camera won't be shipping until then anyway.

So, here's the big question... Will the pre-order list be so big that these are hard to get for a period of time after release, or will Canon release enough so that there will be availability in early Dec?

Noone knows of course, but all I hear around me (in our trade circles) is people talking about buying this camera. It is going to be a super huge success, whatever other manufacturers release from now until Christmas.

What BlackFriday? This ain't a phone?!

[EphraimP]

6 minutes ago, Kisaha said:

What BlackFriday? This ain't a phone?!

🤣😂

I don't know. I did get some good film making deals year. Couple hundo off a Manfrotto Nitrotech fluidhead and sticks. Some other stuff too, probably. Maybe.

[Kisaha]

48 minutes ago, EphraimP said:

🤣😂

I don't know. I did get some good film making deals year. Couple hundo off a Manfrotto Nitrotech fluidhead and sticks. Some other stuff too, probably. Maybe.

Depending the country I guess, here BF is only for home appliances, TVs, phones and the occasional Playstation/Xbox.

In the pro world maybe there is an SD card thrown here or there, but not much else.

The camera hasn't released yet, so I am not expecting any sales, maybe after a year or so, when everyone has released their own "cheap" cine/video camera.

In the AngloSaxonic world, I remember BF was a huge deal though. Where do you live?

[EphraimP]

22 minutes ago, Kisaha said:

In the AngloSaxonic world, I remember BF was a huge deal though. Where do you live?

AngloSaxonic?! That's a new one. Actually, I'm Anglo Norman... A history joke for all you fans of William the Conqueror out there.

I live in the Pacific Northwest of 'Merica, land of the (nothing is for) free, home of the brave (shopper who goes to the store on Black Friday). 

In America, anything you can think of is for sale on Black Friday. People have literally gotten killed in stampedes to get into stores the second they open. It's insanity. Of course, I wouldn't think of going into a store on that day. But everything is for sale online anyway. I think I found the tripod at B&H.

[Kisaha]

13 hours ago, EphraimP said:

AngloSaxonic?! That's a new one. Actually, I'm Anglo Norman... A history joke for all you fans of William the Conqueror out there.

I live in the Pacific Northwest of 'Merica, land of the (nothing is for) free, home of the brave (shopper who goes to the store on Black Friday). 

In America, anything you can think of is for sale on Black Friday. People have literally gotten killed in stampedes to get into stores the second they open. It's insanity. Of course, I wouldn't think of going into a store on that day. But everything is for sale online anyway. I think I found the tripod at B&H.

True, then you may find a good deal then. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Saxon_model

[Stanly]

On 10/12/2020 at 10:10 PM, currensheldon said:

the 24-105mm lenses that have great IS and still get you f2.8 or snag a 24-70mm and have an f2

It will look exactly like 24-105 f/4 on full frame (or 24-70 f/2.8). Even though the speedbooster "doubles the light", it only compensates the light initially subtracted by the sensor crop.