Canon Cinema EOS C70 - Ah that explains it then!

[BenEricson]

3 hours ago, TomTheDP said:

I just tested the color between the C70, Alexa, and Pana S1. The C70 was very close to the ARRI. I was surprised how great the color and roll off were. This was using mixed lighting too.

The C70 is a great image. In the right setting, it definitely looks great. Arri beat it in skin texture, color detail in the shadows, over exposure, color separation, etc.

I’ve shot very consistently with the Canon C300 Mk2 for the last 5 years. The C70 is such a close image. I’m sure the OG C300ii would feel very close to the Alexa as well. The DGO sensor is great and all, but the C300 Mk3 / C70 is also 5 years newer than the C300 Mk2. I’m honestly a bit underwhelmed if anything.  It’s just so similar. Cleaner... but again, it’s 5 years newer.

Things like false color, better auto focus, long GOP, cleaner C-Log2, 4K/60p are all things that impress me more than the DGO sensor. I’ve shot projects where I used the C70 and C300ii next to each other for interviews. For better or for worse, I very much doubt anyone could tell the difference, even when looking at the raw source material. 

The highlights are great on the C70, but anything pointed into the sun sucks. You get the clipping blob in really bright sources or the sun. Once you see it, you know what to look for and it is always there. Pocket 6K probably does it worse.  Komodo a little better. Film handles it by far the best.

Ive said this before... but the Long GOP 4k codec on the C70 is so great. You get a cleaner, sharper image than the older generation Canon cameras and it looks really great. The files are also almost 3x as small.

I’m interested to see what effect the CRL files will have on the image. If the files are even a little sharper and just a bit noisier / textured, that would be great.

[TomTheDP]

On 1/26/2022 at 2:51 AM, BenEricson said:

The C70 is a great image. In the right setting, it definitely looks great. Arri beat it in skin texture, color detail in the shadows, over exposure, color separation, etc.

I’ve shot very consistently with the Canon C300 Mk2 for the last 5 years. The C70 is such a close image. I’m sure the OG C300ii would feel very close to the Alexa as well. The DGO sensor is great and all, but the C300 Mk3 / C70 is also 5 years newer than the C300 Mk2. I’m honestly a bit underwhelmed if anything.  It’s just so similar. Cleaner... but again, it’s 5 years newer.

Things like false color, better auto focus, long GOP, cleaner C-Log2, 4K/60p are all things that impress me more than the DGO sensor. I’ve shot projects where I used the C70 and C300ii next to each other for interviews. For better or for worse, I very much doubt anyone could tell the difference, even when looking at the raw source material. 

The highlights are great on the C70, but anything pointed into the sun sucks. You get the clipping blob in really bright sources or the sun. Once you see it, you know what to look for and it is always there. Pocket 6K probably does it worse.  Komodo a little better. Film handles it by far the best.

Ive said this before... but the Long GOP 4k codec on the C70 is so great. You get a cleaner, sharper image than the older generation Canon cameras and it looks really great. The files are also almost 3x as small.

I’m interested to see what effect the CRL files will have on the image. If the files are even a little sharper and just a bit noisier / textured, that would be great.

I've not shot the C300 MKII and C70 side by side before. I feel the C70 has more dynamic range. Not so much in the highlights but you can really push the shadows far. I think the ticket is underexposing and boosting in post. Nothing beats ARRI in highlights, the C70 doesn't even come close. However ARRI is pretty noisy underexposed, though the colors hold up nicely even under a few stops.

It isn't a cheap camera so I am not in a hurry to buy it. It would also be nice if the 4k 120p mode utilized the DGO capability. ARRI is still the better choice for 120p for me, even though its only HD.

[TomTheDP]

On 1/26/2022 at 1:28 AM, kye said:

Any chance of sharing the test, and original files?  I'd be VERY keen to play with them and see how they compare!

I can definitely do that.

[Django]

On 1/26/2022 at 8:51 AM, BenEricson said:

I’m interested to see what effect the CRL files will have on the image. If the files are even a little sharper and just a bit noisier / textured, that would be great.

From my experience with C200 & R5 CRL the footage is considerably sharper with finer detail. and of course 12-bit color.

Should really unlock that DGO sensor and be an IQ game changer. If you've been underwhelmed by C70 up until now, be prepared for a significant IQ upgrade with the firmware update.

[Mmmbeats]

On 1/29/2022 at 7:43 AM, TomTheDP said:

I think the ticket is underexposing and boosting in post.

This seems to be becoming a bit of a strategy - utilising some of the excellent shadow rendition to make up for a perceived weakness in highlight roll-off.  Underexposing to retain the highlight data. 

[TomTheDP]

On 1/31/2022 at 8:54 AM, Mmmbeats said:

This seems to be becoming a bit of a strategy - utilising some of the excellent shadow rendition to make up for a perceived weakness in highlight roll-off.  Underexposing to retain the highlight data. 

I suppose that has always been a thing with digital cameras but it rings very true with the C70 more then others. I recently saw a comparison between the R5, C70, and FX6. The C70 had about two stops more in the shadows and about the same in the highlights as the other two with the R5 maybe a 1/3 stop ahead and the FX6 behind.

I do the opposite with the Panasonic S1 usually overexposing by 1 or two stops. The S1 has about 5 stops in the highlights and two in the shadows, though with RAW the shadows can be pushed way further.
 

 

[Django]

On 2/3/2022 at 7:17 AM, TomTheDP said:

I suppose that has always been a thing with digital cameras but it rings very true with the C70 more then others. I recently saw a comparison between the R5, C70, and FX6. The C70 had about two stops more in the shadows and about the same in the highlights as the other two with the R5 maybe a 1/3 stop ahead and the FX6 behind.
 

In the overexposure test C70 & R5C seem to both clip around +4 stops. Seems like the highlight DR is about the same. It's in the underexposure test that we clearly see the DGO sensor doing its magic: at -4 stops both the R5C/FX3 are unusable with horizontal noise and color shifting whereas the C70 maintains a much more usable IQ with a more filmic noise, much less colorshift and no horizontal patterns that give that nasty digital video look.

Furthermore having now played with R5C (RAW & compressed) & C70 footage, I can only attest the incredible amount of shadow information that you can pull on the C70. On the R5C it gets noisy and ugly really quick.

This really limits the R5C to a crushed black, contrasty look when pushing in post, whereas the C70 has so much more latitude thanks to all that precious clean shadow information.

(by the way on a side-note the R6 stands somewhere in between, with much more pleasant shadow noise than R5/R5C but nowhere as good as C70)

Quite an eye-opener to verify this myself and I can now safely say my A cam choice would clearly lean towards C70.

 

[TomTheDP]

On 2/10/2022 at 7:32 AM, Django said:

In the overexposure test C70 & R5C seem to both clip around +4 stops. Seems like the highlight DR is about the same. It's in the underexposure test that we clearly see the DGO sensor doing its magic: at -4 stops both the R5C/FX3 are unusable with horizontal noise and color shifting whereas the C70 maintains a much more usable IQ with a more filmic noise, much less colorshift and no horizontal patterns that give that nasty digital video look.

Furthermore having now played with R5C (RAW & compressed) & C70 footage, I can only attest the incredible amount of shadow information that you can pull on the C70. On the R5C it gets noisy and ugly really quick.

This really limits the R5C to a crushed black, contrasty look when pushing in post, whereas the C70 has so much more latitude thanks to all that precious clean shadow information.

(by the way on a side-note the R6 stands somewhere in between, with much more pleasant shadow noise than R5/R5C but nowhere as good as C70)

Quite an eye-opener to verify this myself and I can now safely say my A cam choice would clearly lean towards C70.

 

Yeah the shadow dynamic range is really helpful. I've heard bad things about the highlights but 4 stops is respectable. The S1H tops it by maybe a stop but the shadows are not really very usable past 2 stops under.

[herein2020]

On 2/10/2022 at 7:32 AM, Django said:

In the overexposure test C70 & R5C seem to both clip around +4 stops. Seems like the highlight DR is about the same. It's in the underexposure test that we clearly see the DGO sensor doing its magic: at -4 stops both the R5C/FX3 are unusable with horizontal noise and color shifting whereas the C70 maintains a much more usable IQ with a more filmic noise, much less colorshift and no horizontal patterns that give that nasty digital video look.

Furthermore having now played with R5C (RAW & compressed) & C70 footage, I can only attest the incredible amount of shadow information that you can pull on the C70. On the R5C it gets noisy and ugly really quick.

This really limits the R5C to a crushed black, contrasty look when pushing in post, whereas the C70 has so much more latitude thanks to all that precious clean shadow information.

(by the way on a side-note the R6 stands somewhere in between, with much more pleasant shadow noise than R5/R5C but nowhere as good as C70)

Quite an eye-opener to verify this myself and I can now safely say my A cam choice would clearly lean towards C70.

 

 

I will admit that I had completely written off the C70 due to the weak screen, cropped sensor, weird relationship between EF and RF glass, and no RAW option. But recent YouTube videos have been saying Canon fixed the weak screen hinge in later models, if you do get one with the problem they will fix it and return it free of charge with approximately a 2wk turnaround, and now it will soon offer in camera raw.

I have put my C200 up for sale and am very close to replacing it with the C70. The R5C doesn't have ND filters or integrated XLR inputs and from what I've been reading the XLR adapter is very large and heavy and yet another power hungry draw on the tiny battery.

It would actually cost me more to outfit the R5C than it would to buy the C70; according to my math I would need the XLR adapter, dual battery grip, camera cage, and some exotic power solution to use the R5C the way I use the C200....ending up with a frankenrig, less DR and 8K that I would never use.

I am still not a fan of the weird C70 RF/EF mount relationship. If you buy the C70 you are stuck with EF glass and the expensive focal reducer but you would also never be able to use native RF glass without a serious crop so if I ever wanted to go all in on RF glass I would still be stuck with EF glass for the foreseeable future or have to replace the C70 within the next 3-5yrs.

I get the feeling that the min I buy the C70 Canon will release a FF RF cinema camera such as the C50 that addresses all of my problems with the C70.

[Django]

@herein2020 I think you're looking at this the wrong way.  Even if right now Canon only has FF RF lenses, I am pretty sure they will soon develop S35 cine glass as they are phasing out EF mount in favor of RF. Besides you already have a growing list of third-party S35 cine lenses in RF mount:

https://filmdaft.com/rf-mount-lenses-cinema-list/

The BIG attraction of the RF mount is also that it opens up all types of lens adaptation choices, not just EF, and with speed boosting it gives you the FF FoV option. It's best of both worlds. Especially if you compare the C70 to its biggest competitor FX6 that can only do FF 4K.

Another big plus of the C70's S35 sensor is it is the DGO sensor from the $11K C300 mk2, whereas the FX6 FF sensor is the same as the $3.5K A7S3. 

A FF "C50" could be in the works but would probably utilize the FF sensor from R5/R6/R3. Of which you'll never get the DR benefits of the DGO sensor. 

And if Canon develop a FF DGO sensor, you can be certain that will be for a flagship C500 mk3, not an entry-level C50.

With Canon RAW coming to the C70 I wouldn't hesitate to upgrade to it from C200.

I loved the C200 body & build-quality but the 8-bit compressed mp4 IQ was pretty awful and CRL files not compressed enough. Result was it gathered dust while I always favored FS7, BMD Raw or 10-bit mirrorless bodies.

C70 just seems to me like the perfect compromise with a chunky compact DSLR form-factor but with ND's, I/Os on the body, RF mount with speed booster, CRL LT option, affordable SD media with 10-bit proxies on RAW and the mighty DGO sensor.

The FX6 is also very tempting despite the $6K price tag for alpha line sensor and no 4K S35 mode.

[herein2020]

11 hours ago, Django said:

@herein2020 I think you're looking at this the wrong way.  Even if right now Canon only has FF RF lenses, I am pretty sure they will soon develop S35 cine glass as they are phasing out EF mount in favor of RF. Besides you already have a growing list of third-party S35 cine lenses in RF mount:

https://filmdaft.com/rf-mount-lenses-cinema-list/

The BIG attraction of the RF mount is also that it opens up all types of lens adaptation choices, not just EF, and with speed boosting it gives you the FF FoV option. It's best of both worlds. Especially if you compare the C70 to its biggest competitor FX6 that can only do FF 4K.

Another big plus of the C70's S35 sensor is it is the DGO sensor from the $11K C300 mk2, whereas the FX6 FF sensor is the same as the $3.5K A7S3. 

A FF "C50" could be in the works but would probably utilize the FF sensor from R5/R6/R3. Of which you'll never get the DR benefits of the DGO sensor. 

And if Canon develop a FF DGO sensor, you can be certain that will be for a flagship C500 mk3, not an entry-level C50.

With Canon RAW coming to the C70 I wouldn't hesitate to upgrade to it from C200.

I loved the C200 body & build-quality but the 8-bit compressed mp4 IQ was pretty awful and CRL files not compressed enough. Result was it gathered dust while I always favored FS7, BMD Raw or 10-bit mirrorless bodies.

C70 just seems to me like the perfect compromise with a chunky compact DSLR form-factor but with ND's, I/Os on the body, RF mount with speed booster, CRL LT option, affordable SD media with 10-bit proxies on RAW and the mighty DGO sensor.

The FX6 is also very tempting despite the $6K price tag for alpha line sensor and no 4K S35 mode.

 

The upcoming RAW update, the sensor, the touch to track AF update, the codecs, etc. finally sold it for me. I went ahead and ordered it to replace my C200 for long form content.  I will also get to see once and for all how well handheld works with just lens and digital stabilization.

[Django]

Congrats, let us know how that works out for you!

[nathlas]

I would love to see a comparison between a braw BM camera and the new Raw light of C70 as well

[Davide DB]

First -and only- UW reel on the internet taken with the Canon C70 showing the capabilities of the camera.

 

 

[herein2020]

47 minutes ago, Davide DB said:

First -and only- UW reel on the internet taken with the Canon C70 showing the capabilities of the camera.

 

 

 

Looks pretty incredible, they can keep that crown, no way am I going that far underwater or taking my C70 with me 🙂

[pvlvsk]

From a C70 Facebook Group:

 

[webrunner5]

https://www.cined.com/canon-eos-c70-firmware-update-1-0-3-1-adds-cinema-raw-light-capabilities/