Canon Cinema EOS C70 - Ah that explains it then!

[SteveV4D]

Just now, Kisaha said:

I understand what you say, I am just glad they offer as much! You describe a different kind of workflow though. When we say "fast turnaround", we mean minimum, or not at all post. At least that is how we do it in some fields, most of the times I do not even edit the footage, just give it to the editing department, these guys do not like tweaking things much, they ask mixed sound and whatever they can get from the already shot image. We are talking about national televised shows here (FS7 cameras mainly), so imagine for even faster and lower budgeted jobs..

I personally know noone working raw for those, it is definitely not the standard in the industry, and we talking tv shows, not lesser jobs. IBIS is a staple NOT in cine cameras, I am not sure how suddenly is another negative, and 8K?! are you serious?!! 

I believe you may have to invest on the Ursa 12K then, it seems more suitable for your needs and you have the extra resolution to stabilize and crop for 8K delivery, this is NOT the camera, oh, and Ursa doesn't have IBIS of course.

 

I was simply explaining why the lack of excitement over the C70; its not my shopping list for a camera. 🤣🤣   I don't need 8K (definitely not) or even IBIS or even RAW TBH...  I still use cameras that record H264 and as long as you have such codecs on offer for fast turnaround, why not have something that gives a bit more for those who need it.  Some of us are editing and grading our own footage.  

I am not sure why wishing for a RAW codec that is being offered to the R5 can't be available to a dedicated cinema camera is such a hard concept to grasp.  

[Rinad Amir]

External is option for Rawlight. Canons plan is to keep this as light mobile cheap as possible my theory.

 

[Kisaha]

2 minutes ago, SteveV4D said:

I was simply explaining why the lack of excitement over the C70; its not my shopping list for a camera. 🤣🤣   I don't need 8K (definitely not) or even IBIS or even RAW TBH...  I still use cameras that record H264 and as long as you have such codecs on offer for fast turnaround, why not have something that gives a bit more for those who need it.  Some of us are editing and grading our own footage.  

I am not sure why wishing for a RAW codec that is being offered to the R5 can't be available to a dedicated cinema camera is such a hard concept to grasp.  

I read your comment on that other photo site! So I get you more.

I wish it had everything myself, I am not negative, just know how the industry works! Imagine the camera as you described, would make the C300mkIII almost unneeded!

[Mmmbeats]

2 hours ago, Hywel Phillips said:

Years ago I saw a post explaining various companies' segmentation strategies, and I think it still holds true today...

I actually agree with this, but I don't think it shines as much of a bad light on Canon as people think. 

The various strategies also reflect how companies attract customers.  Varicam is Panasonic's successful cinema range at this point.  Despite it being a decent camera I doubt the EVA1 has been very successful.  I'm not exaggerating when I say the only ones I've seen in the wild are the ones I've personally rented.  Whereas Canon have had huge penetration with their EOS range, with C300's and C500's widely used in mid-tier and high-end professional productions, and the C100 and C200's serving their purposes well also.

So it's not that surprising that Panny has gone hard after the 'low-hanging' mirrorless fruit, while Canon has done everything it can to protect it's lucrative EOS line.   If the fortunes were reversed I imagine the corporate cultures would reflect that.

And is Canon so wrong-footed?  While everybody else has been R&D'ing towards making the boldest and best mirrorless hybrids possible, that whole end of the market is being viciously chomped from below by mobile devices, to the point where a) sales have disappeared across the board, b) Sony seem to be seriously reconsidering their camera division going forward, and c) Panasonic may well be abandoning MFT sometime soon.

Perhaps the smartest strategy was Canon in saying let's make limited products for entryists and fully-facilitated products for arrived professionals, but provide a roadmap that takes them from A to B (to C...).

In all of this, I'm not defending the R5 heating stuff.  That was lead by deception, and is inexcusable in my opinion.  There's enough about that on other threads, but I just wanted to make it clear that I don't include that release as part of a reasonable segmentisation policy.  

[scotchtape]

45 minutes ago, Rinad Amir said:

Canons plan is to keep this as light mobile cheap as possible my theory.

 

... Wut?

No wonder Canon is "winning".  When your fans think they are trying to keep their products as cheap as possible 🙂

Thanks for doing us a solid Canon 🙂

I need to get some Canon fans to support me!

 

I really do wonder what's going to happen with the FX6. What can sony cripple- no raw, no touch af (yuck), no 120 (bad move), maybe crappier codecs? It's hard when the FX9 already has some annoying compromises to the crop (aps-h essentially for "FF"4k). Not to mention the awful menus and giant $$$ backpack for raw. I wonder if they can ignore the c70 or if it's going to push them to make the FX6 have no crop and super sampling with FX9 sensor... Or will they use the slightly mushy a7siii sensor instead. Tough place for them to be now.

Both lines make good images, Canon is probably better this round if you have unlimited money and don't shoot low light / need shadow detail. I don't think I can afford to switch until RF has some cheaper (and lighter) options.

[Mmmbeats]

2 hours ago, scotchtape said:

... Wut?

From what I can see this is literally the least expensive fully-equipped cinema camera by any of the major manufacturers currently available in the market. (I'm not including the z-cam range and things like that).

Apologies in advance if I've missed anything.

[scotchtape]

34 minutes ago, Mmmbeats said:

From what I can see this is literally the least expensive fully-equipped cinema camera by any of the major manufacturers currently available in the market. (I'm not including the z-cam range and things like that).

Apologies in advance if I've missed anything.

If you read the post the context is scoffing at the idea that Canon is purposefully trying to "keep prices low" for your benefit. From the same company that has a cripple-timer? I think not.

This is completely separate from the relative price in it's tier. It's literally the new ENTRY level c line, why wouldn't it be their cheapest c line in it's generation... (obviously not counting the older discounted models)

Maybe if it was full frame it would be more of a deal but not at apsc level considering the crippled r5 or a7siii (half price, full frame, full coverage af, cheaper/more lenses, no internal nd though, but has Ibis)

I've said this camera looks pretty great, but if you don't think Canon wants to make money off of it...

Also fully equipped means different things to different people, but it has no RAW, no evf. (I don't use either of those but other people do).

[Mmmbeats]

15 minutes ago, scotchtape said:

If you read the post the context is scoffing at the idea that Canon is purposefully trying to "keep prices low" for your benefit. From the same company that has a cripple-timer? I think not.

This is completely separate from the relative price in it's tier. It's literally the new ENTRY level c line, why wouldn't it be their cheapest c line in it's generation... (obviously not counting the older discounted models)

Maybe if it was full frame it would be more of a deal but not at apsc level considering the crippled r5 or a7siii (half price, full frame, full coverage af, cheaper/more lenses, no internal nd though, but has Ibis)

I've said this camera looks pretty great, but if you don't think Canon wants to make money off of it...

Also fully equipped means different things to different people, but it has no RAW, no evf. (I don't use either of those but other people do).

Is anybody labouring under the notion that any of these major corporations are offering prices, features and services for any other reason than to drive profit?  I can't see anything in Rinad Amir's post that suggests that.

The price is unique.  It's an eye-catching £3,999 (ex VAT) in the UK.  There's never been a major cinema camera release with that badge that I can remember.

I'm really not taken by down-market comparisons with either the R5 or the A7SIII.  Just different kinds of machines.  Hybrids, with all the advantages and compromises that brings.  I honestly think they belong to a different (but obviously overlapping) market segment.

I take your point about 'fully-equipped' - I really meant dedicated high-end video camera.

[Mmmbeats]

Eta: Perhaps the C100 mkII was similarly priced?  I don't recall.  I'm pretty sure the mk I was quite a bit more.

[Kisaha]

Other interesting stuff:

"9 x 16 Vertical Capture

Use the 1/4"-20 tripod thread built into the grip to position the EOS C70 for vertical use when capturing images for digital signage or mobile device use. For easier viewing, the user interface can also be switched for vertical use.

EIS with Coordinated Control

To smooth out handheld shots, EOS C70 is the first Cinema EOS camera to offer enhanced image stabilization with coordinated control. When used with an RF-mount lens and the EOS C70's electronic IS, coordinated control optimizes hand-shake correction for even greater vibration reduction than that obtained with an EF-mount lens and electronic IS.

When working in the 2K format, the EOS C70's Super16 Digital IS improves performance by using the peripheral area around the center of the 4K sensor to stabilize the image.

Auto ISO/Gain Control

In another first for the Cinema EOS line, the EOS C70 can automatically adjust ISO and Gain Control using the DGO (dual gain output) to change gain smoothly, enabling users to concentrate on their framing instead of their aperture control when moving between locations with notable changes in light levels."

 

[Matins 2]

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[Matins 2]

 

[Oliver Daniel]

I don’t understand some of the negativity I’m seeing with the C70. It looks like a fantastic concept and will serve many people very very well.

People who want RAW from this aren’t understanding it’s purpose. At least in the UK - documentary, corporate, music videos, brand promos.... 99% shot with 8bit or 10bit codecs. 

[newfoundmass]

I agree, the C70 looks very good and is decently priced for Canon. I think it will be a smash success, though I still can't in good conscience support them until they show they've changed their attitude towards customers. 

[SteveV4D]

1 hour ago, Oliver Daniel said:

I don’t understand some of the negativity I’m seeing with the C70. It looks like a fantastic concept and will serve many people very very well.

People who want RAW from this aren’t understanding it’s purpose. At least in the UK - documentary, corporate, music videos, brand promos.... 99% shot with 8bit or 10bit codecs. 

So explain the purpose of the R5 having RAW video capture???  Do hybrid shooters need it more than the examples you give??   I've shot Promo, Music Videos and events on BRAW and have benefitted from the smooth editing and extra freedom it gives.   

Look I like the C70.  I may well buy one.  But its not negative to wish for a feature I would value and which can be found in a cheaper Photo camera.  

Maybe everyone here loves H264 and H265 so much, they're happy with these codecs.  Except they're not.  They're transcoding it half the time or limiting grades so as not to bog down their computers.

[Kisaha]

https://www.newsshooter.com/2020/09/24/canon-eos-c70/

Very interesting review.

Canon now is nothing like the Canon of the past, and there is a C50 rumored on the way with the C200 sensor. That would be interesting as well, but doubt it will have 10bit which is much more appreciated than any kind of raw.

[Kisaha]

1 hour ago, Oliver Daniel said:

I don’t understand some of the negativity I’m seeing with the C70. It looks like a fantastic concept and will serve many people very very well.

People who want RAW from this aren’t understanding it’s purpose. At least in the UK - documentary, corporate, music videos, brand promos.... 99% shot with 8bit or 10bit codecs. 

In the whole world, not just U.K, 10bit especially is a must have and enough for most stuff anyway and for faster turnaround and internet stuff 8bit is still used by MOST.

[Oliver Daniel]

1 hour ago, SteveV4D said:

So explain the purpose of the R5 having RAW video capture???  Do hybrid shooters need it more than the examples you give??   I've shot Promo, Music Videos and events on BRAW and have benefitted from the smooth editing and extra freedom it gives.   

Look I like the C70.  I may well buy one.  But its not negative to wish for a feature I would value and which can be found in a cheaper Photo camera.  

Maybe everyone here loves H264 and H265 so much, they're happy with these codecs.  Except they're not.  They're transcoding it half the time or limiting grades so as not to bog down their computers.

R5 8k RAW video? Marketing. It worked a treat. 

Also, bringing the Canon name back onto major motion picture sets. 8K RAW crash cam? Great press for Canon. 

BRAW is incredible technology and more people will adapt it in time. However, most shoots in this segment will ask for ProRes or the nearest thing (XAVC-I on the FS7 / FX9).

RAW would be a “nice to have” on the C70, just like it is with the A7SIII. I agree with that. 

I have the A7SIII in my hands now and I’m wondering if I’ve spent my money incorrectly. 

[mrtreve]

I understand why the lack of raw is a downer for enthusiasts who really want to tinker, but I have to admit the C70 is pretty compelling work tool.

You could load a backpack with the camera, 2 BPA-60s, some SD Cards and a couple of lenses and you could go shoot a job and make it look easy. You've got inexpensive media, decently compressed codecs and a battery that lasts 400 minutes. For a lot of projects, that's worth more than the gains from shooting raw.

The best way forward (for me at least) is to delineate the two needs by owning a cinema camera and a video camera. Then you're not driving yourself crazy by trying to make one do the other's job.

 

 

[Video Hummus]

1 hour ago, mrtreve said:

The best way forward (for me at least) is to delineate the two needs by owning a cinema camera and a video camera. Then you're not driving yourself crazy by trying to make one do the other's job.

Yes, because I’m convinced the holy grail of hybrid cameras will never come because, as someone said above, it’s in their best interests not to give it to you!

At this point the system I’m most invested in, MFT, is barely breathing. No to mention the amount of stuff Panasonic would need to put into a GH6 for me to stay in a format that is rabidly declining is PDAF, Internal ND, and some kind of DR enhancement over the 11.4 stops max I get with my GH5S. I just don’t see it happening.

Sony, I believe is to blame for some of Panasonic woes, so I’m not giving that company any money. Not to mention I find their cameras are soulless and uninspired. I don’t care how many specs and stops advantages their cameras have.

That leaves Fuji and Canon, and Canon simply has more to offer. More interesting products. I just dont’ get them in a single camera. So now its a game of figuring out what two canon cameras will offer me all I want and work together lens wise the best.

I really wish the C70 was full frame. To get the most out of it it makes sense to use the EF adapter and run EF glass on it. But I don’t own any EF glass and if I was going to buy new I would want to go RF so it will work on future RF mirrorless cameras...