Canon Cinema EOS C70 - Ah that explains it then!

[joema]

2 hours ago, IronFilm said:

I'd seriously struggle to remember the last time I was on a shoot with an external recorder.

There are several recent trends that make this difficult to assess. Past experience may not be a reliable indicator.

Historically most use of RAW video has been proprietary formats which were expensive and complicated in both acquisition and post. By contrast both Blackmagic's BRAW and ProRes RAW are cheap to acquire and easy to handle in post. However they are both fairly recent developments, especially the rapidly-growing inexpensive availability of ProRes RAW via HDMI from various mirrorless cameras. If a given technology has only been widely available for 1-2 years, you won't immediately see great penetration in any segment of the video production community. There is institutional inertia and lag.

However, long before BRAW and ProRes RAW, we had regular ProRes acquisition, either internally or via external recorders. Lots of shops have used ProRes acquisition because it avoids time-consuming transcoding and gives good quality in post. BRAW or ProRes RAW are no more complex or difficult to use than ProRes. This implies in the future, those RAW formats may grow and become somewhat more widely used, even in lower end productions.

Conflicting with this is the more widespread recent availability of good-quality internal 10-bit 4:2:2 codecs on mirrorless cameras. I recently did a color correction test comparing 12-bit ProRes RAW from a Sony FS5  via Atomos Inferno to 10-bit 4:2:2 All-Intra from an A7SIII, and even when doing aggressive HSL masking, the A7SIII internal codec looked really good.

So the idea is not accurate that the C70 is somehow debilitated because of not shipping with RAW capability on day 1. OTOH Sony will also face this same issue when the FX6 is shortly released. If it doesn't at least have ProRes RAW via HDMI to Atomos, that will be a perceptual problem because the A7SIII and S1H have it. It's also not just about RAW -- regular ProRes is widely used, e.g. various cameras inc'l Blackmagic record this internally or with an inexpensive external recorder.  The S1, S1H and A7SIII can record regular 10-bit 4:2:2 ProRes to a Ninja V, the BMPCC4k can record that internally or via USB-C to a Samsung T5, etc. 

With a good quality 10-bit internal codec you may have less need for either RAW or ProRes acquisition. OTOH I believe some camera mfgs have an internal perceptual problem which is reflected externally in their products and marketing. E.g, I recently asked a senior Sony marketing guy what is the strategy for getting regular ProRes from the FX9. His response was why would I want that, why not use the internal codecs. There is some kind of disconnect, worsened by the new mirrorless cameras. Maybe the C70 lack of RAW is another manifestation. This general issue is discussed in the FX9 review starting at 06:25. While about the FX9 specifically, in broader terms the same issue (to varying degrees) affects the C70 and other cameras: 

 

[Video Hummus]

1 hour ago, Django said:

custom LUTs.

C70 has this.

1 hour ago, Django said:

think I might also upgrade EOS R to R5 for RAW/8K B-cam shots

I’m looking to do something similar. Either C70 or R5 (I’m hoping they improve the R5 in light of the upcoming A7IV or A7RV) to help keep it competitive. Sony and Canon have pulled away from the pack and are battling out the Mid/Pro market. Canon overcompensated with the R5 exactly for this reason and then artificial software limited it so as to not hurt their upcoming cameras. Maybe later they will loosen the restrictions...shitty business but business nonetheless.

OR

I could also go for EOS R purely for photography since that camera is still good for that until they either fix the R5 or come out with a R5 Mark 2 that isn’t crippled.

But for the time being I’m thinking of buying used EF glass with EF-RF+ND adapter and C70 with the focal reducer adapter on the C70 to maximize the image out of it. Over time I’ll acquire more RF glass and hopefully we will see a FF sensor trickle down to a C70/C50 style cinema camera. 

[Kisaha]

Whoever wants raw, can go to other threads, there is a whole sub-forum.

It is a product, if it doesn't have what you need, go to the next option.

On another forum, some criticized a certain car for being too small, the guys were complaining that a small B suv didn't fit them well, the guys were 1.95-2.00m and 130-150kg!! Why complain to the car company, when obviously you have to check a C or even a D suv to fit a quite large human specimen! It is nobodies fault, the product obviously wasn't right for them, but it wasn't the products fault, they were just cases outside of the "golden mediocrity", as I like to say for people like me, just in the middle of things!

If raw is a necessity, this camera will fail, if it is not, then it will sell amazingly well, and I am betting is going to be the second.

Let's concentrate more to what the camera CAN do, for us that consider buying it, than what it can NOT do, for people that will NOT buy it.

I consider go to R6 as a photo camera and a little bit of video, and C70 as main video camera. Maybe keeping the P4K, maybe don't, I am not sure, have to many lenses and systems right now. I may concentrate on EF/RF for the future, Canon is still relevant after half a dozen years, or so. It is incredible. They deliver, at least, I can not complain really.

 

[Mmmbeats]

1 hour ago, Video Hummus said:

C70 has this.

No, I believe they are providing some set LUT choices in-camera but you can't load your own for monitoring unfortunately.  If I recall correctly there is the ability to burn-in LUTS (never an attractive idea for me).

[Mmmbeats]

2 hours ago, joema said:

There are several recent trends that make this difficult to assess. Past experience may not be a reliable indicator...

 

A good balanced overview in my opinion.

I think that if the shortcomings of the camera don't suit your needs then that's understandable.  If you're a Gratical Eye EVF owner for instance (SDI input only) , then you might be feeling a bit left out.  But I think that questioning the actual value proposition with this particular release is short-sighted, I honestly do.   

[wintermute]

Playing with files from both komodo and c70 and nothing really exciting, global shutter on komodo being the only new element. Canon's AF is great but there's a serious highlights DR issue and the image still breaks down fast in that aspect, Raw Light on c200 is much better. The same with Komodo, highlights lose color information quickly and you're left with a faded look that's hard to fix. 12bit BRAW from BM is in another league when grading is concerned, so much more fidelity and room to find the grade.

[EthanAlexander]

9 hours ago, SteveV4D said:

A Professional Cinema camera should look to have at least one codec that wasn't a deliverable codec.  H264 and H265 are what you use to deliver video files to YouTube.  Its not ideal for editing, whatever spin is given on it. 

The thing about the comparison to stills photography you're making is that there was only ever jpeg and raw, so obviously raw was the way to go. But now there are high efficiency compressed stills formats that are changing things.

Plus, storage costs are a huge factor in maintaining profitability. I for one love having robust 10 bit compressed codecs so I can maximize margin.

[EthanAlexander]

9 hours ago, SteveV4D said:

6 years ago many would say they neither needed or wanted 4K, or 10 bit... 

I'm pretty sure everyone six years ago was wanting 10 bit codecs in every camera. But then this got hijacked by people demanding raw.

[Video Hummus]

1 hour ago, Mmmbeats said:

No, I believe they are providing some set LUT choices in-camera but you can't load your own for monitoring unfortunately.  If I recall correctly there is the ability to burn-in LUTS (never an attractive idea for me).

This is from B&H.

Quote

The EOS C70 also supports .cube 3D LUTs so you can get the most accurate color reproduction on both the LCD and your external viewing monitors.

I’m assuming they are saying .cube 3D to mean you can make your own .cube and load them in?

[ghostwind]

Still using my C100MK2, in fact just wrapping up a corporate promo video this week, but need to go to 4K soon, so the C70 vs. C300M3 has got me thinking. While I do like the smaller form factor of the C70 (and of course the price), the one thing I do wonder is if a camera so small and light without proper IBIS will be more difficult to handhold and stabilize than a C300MK3. Weight gives better stability when handheld, but size does too, as it's easier to brace a larger camera (for me anyways). Any thoughts on this? Another thing I noticed that makes me a bit nervous are the exposed audio controls. The cinema cameras so far have a small plastic door to cover them. With the LCD open on the C70, can be possibly easier to change the input gain on the audio by mistake.

[IronFilm]

6 hours ago, seanzzxx said:

This is all anecdotal but in my experience the Pocket 4K is EVERYWHERE in the low budget circuit, with its entry price of 1400 dollars and great image.

Yes, for the indie "no budget" circuit. 

Don't think it is ultra popular (popular? Yes! But "everywhere"? No) in the low budget professional world. 

5 hours ago, Kisaha said:

There will be a huge depreciation of C200 cameras in the wild.

Bingo, within a couple of years, they'll be selling for what C100mk2 are selling today. 
 

[SteveV4D]

1 hour ago, EthanAlexander said:

The thing about the comparison to stills photography you're making is that there was only ever jpeg and raw, so obviously raw was the way to go. But now there are high efficiency compressed stills formats that are changing things.

Plus, storage costs are a huge factor in maintaining profitability. I for one love having robust 10 bit compressed codecs so I can maximize margin.

You're forgetting TIFF files. And some photographers shoot jpeg.  Its about choice.  Something video users need.

1 hour ago, EthanAlexander said:

I'm pretty sure everyone six years ago was wanting 10 bit codecs in every camera. But then this got hijacked by people demanding raw.

I was getting the we don't need 10 bit, I've been shooting 8 bit for years.   Etc etc.. 

As for hijack... 🤣🤣🤣  Remind me which is the top Canon thread as published recently in Andrews top 20 list... 😉

[MrSMW]

I really only have one question and that is why did they name it after a Volvo?

A used Volvo C70 is also cheaper and less good at video, but the Canon C70 is easier to park.

[Mmmbeats]

2 hours ago, Video Hummus said:

This is from B&H.

I’m assuming they are saying .cube 3D to mean you can make your own .cube and load them in?

I expect that B&H have got this wrong.  This is from Newshooter and reads a bit more convincing to me (though I'd prefer you to be right) :

Quote

The C70 does have some in-built LUTs, but you can’t load up or import any custom LUTs of your own. However, according to Canon Japan, there is a “Look File” for creating custom picture profiles. This allows you to import a .Cube format 3D LUT into the camera and apply the captured 3D LUT for recording. This makes it possible to record with the intended look even in workflows that do not do color grading.

 

[newfoundmass]

1 hour ago, ghostwind said:

While I do like the smaller form factor of the C70 (and of course the price), the one thing I do wonder is if a camera so small and light without proper IBIS will be more difficult to handhold and stabilize than a C300MK3

That's my thinking too. I actually prefer the C100 style body for this reason. 

[Mmmbeats]

50 minutes ago, MrSMW said:

I really only have one question and that is why did they name it after a Volvo?

A used Volvo C70 is also cheaper and less good at video, but the Canon C70 is easier to park.

Cars are annoying sometimes when you're searching for cameras.  Stupid cars.

[maxmizer]

2 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Don't think it is ultra popular (popular? Yes! But "everywhere"? No) in the low budget professional world. 

my opinion is that it might actually be relevant to say that:
Canon C70 / 100 are entry level camcorders, as they are Fs5 by Sony, Eva for Panasonic etc ... (for videomaker)
Then below (for price) we have cameras ... Canon r5, A7 series from Sony, SH or gh from Panasonic ... (they take photos and also record videos)
The only two exceptions are precisely Black Magic Design and Zcam. (for what the Pocket does at that price really ...everyone he should have one in his bag ...)
So I think the Low Budget professional world is something more than the aforementioned camcorders and cameras ...

[Kisaha]

25 minutes ago, maxmizer said:

my opinion is that it might actually be relevant to say that:
Canon C70 / 100 are entry level camcorders, as they are Fs5 by Sony, Eva for Panasonic etc ... (for videomaker)
Then below (for price) we have cameras ... Canon r5, A7 series from Sony, SH or gh from Panasonic ... (they take photos and also record videos)
The only two exceptions are precisely Black Magic Design and Zcam. (for what the Pocket does at that price really ...everyone he should have one in his bag ...)
So I think the Low Budget professional world is something more than the aforementioned camcorders and cameras ...

I own a Pocket, mostly for the reason you just described. I never use it though. In low low end, you can use whatever, it is mostly a hobby, or a side job, in the professional world a C70 will be in everybodies mind, as a A cam for most projects, or B cam for bigger ones.

C200 didn't have a broadcast ready codec, and that killed it in sales, Sony with the FS7 just dominated the market for half a decade, and now they have the FX9, Canon strikes back, and the C70 is the tip of the spear.

I have to see the FX6 though, and whatever Panasonic brings with that BMGH1, or whatever its called, but Canon does it, and Canon is Canon, it survived with sub par products and silly decisions, now they strike back, and they strike hard.

[SteveV4D]

5 hours ago, Kisaha said:

Whoever wants raw, can go to other threads, there is a whole sub-forum.

Let's concentrate more to what the camera CAN do, for us that consider buying it, than what it can NOT do, for people that will NOT buy it.

 

 

Whilst I agree that the RAW back and forth discussion has definitely run its course; the last thing this thread needs is people just telling me what this camera can do and how wonderful Canon is being back in the game and delivering the goods etc etc..  I can read Canons marketing brochure for that.  

Any camera announcement thread should allow for talk of both the praise and the disappointments of a new camera, and shutting such chat down like lack of evf, fullframe and RAW for talk on how Canon finally strikes back is not of any interest to me.  

Let me make clear, I like this camera.  I like it a lot and I will be seriously looking at buying one.  However I want a balanced look at the pros and cons and not a fluff piece on Canon to help guide my decision.  

None of us have the camera yet and taking any critics of it now as though its a personal attack helps no one.  Everytime we get this with new cameras, especially Canon products; we hear counter arguments like, this camera wasn't designed for you, or its made for a different market... which is crap.  In a World where a hybrid does 8K when many professional video cameras do not, where we have BRAW from BM for just over a $1000, when even RED are bringing one of their cameras into the affordable range for low to mid budget users, I get weary being told what a camera should and shouldn't be.  

I do welcome positive talk of this camera and how this camera can work for you.  I also welcome discussions where this camera may let certain people down and why.  Looking at both sides will help me decide if this is the right camera for me.

[Mmmbeats]

28 minutes ago, SteveV4D said:

Whilst I agree that the RAW back and forth discussion has definitely run its course; the last thing this thread needs is people just telling me what this camera can do and how wonderful Canon is being back in the game and delivering the goods etc etc..  I can read Canons marketing brochure for that.  

I pretty much agree.  Unless it drowns out the thread (my goodness the howls about AF whenever Panasonic releases a camera get tedious as hell) then I'm all up for hearing people's opinions.  I just reserve the right to be dismissive about them if need be.

There are still a number of things that are potential pitfalls with this camera, even though I expect it to be great.  Will the new design ND system hold up to practical use over time?  Will the model look impressive in real life (actually important to me for professional reasons)?  Will the codec options work as well as expected?  Still lots to discuss and discover.

At this point in it's launch I was fully in love with the EVA-1, but that didn't pan out for me in the end.