Canon Cinema EOS C70 - Ah that explains it then!

[SteveV4D]

10 minutes ago, independent said:

Ironically, you missed the irony and the joke. And the irony. As well as the joke. 

Your last comment was a joke.... 

You need to work on your sense of humour... 🙄

[bwhitz]

2 hours ago, Mmmbeats said:

Why do people get so worked up about this stuff?  Seriously - it would be an interesting psychological study.

1. Some people just don't like the obvious artificial limiting/crippling of tech... they'd like real competition and better products

2. Some people actually LIKE the boomer-protectionism of the 1980's technology markets. I.e. hacks can just say "I own X or Y expensive camera! You HAVE to hire me now!"

3. Some people like to pretend that there is something "Magical" about $5000 or $15000 cameras that will give them better results over something like a Blackmagic P4K or capable DSLR. There isn't. 

[Mmmbeats]

47 minutes ago, bwhitz said:

1. Some people just don't like the obvious artificial limiting/crippling of tech... they'd like real competition and better products

2. Some people actually LIKE the boomer-protectionism of the 1980's technology markets. I.e. hacks can just say "I own X or Y expensive camera! You HAVE to hire me now!"

3. Some people like to pretend that there is something "Magical" about $5000 or $15000 cameras that will give them better results over something like a Blackmagic P4K or capable DSLR. There isn't. 

I'm not so much talking about making considered (though in my opinion, misguided) points like you have done.  I'm talking more about calling everybody else cunts, and then trying to pass it off as 'ironic' or a joke when called out about it 😉.

[independent]

Oh believe me, it was a joke about people overreacting about cameras. Read it again. But if you have to explain a joke to a cunt, well, I guess that's on me.

[bwhitz]

37 minutes ago, Mmmbeats said:

I'm not so much talking about making considered (though in my opinion, misguided) points like you have done. 

Not misguided... change my mind. 

[independent]

2 hours ago, maxmizer said:

It would not seem true that it mounts the same sensor as the c300mk3 ... Canon makes many sensors ...

Arri's magic is in the electronics and the firmware behind the sensor !!!

 

It's the same sensor. The magic is a dual gain output, like Arri. But not the same; Canon's advantage is in the shadows while Arri's is in the highlights. So you should still protect the highlights w/ the C300iii or C70 

[Kisaha]

2 hours ago, bwhitz said:

1. Some people just don't like the obvious artificial limiting/crippling of tech... they'd like real competition and better products

2. Some people actually LIKE the boomer-protectionism of the 1980's technology markets. I.e. hacks can just say "I own X or Y expensive camera! You HAVE to hire me now!"

3. Some people like to pretend that there is something "Magical" about $5000 or $15000 cameras that will give them better results over something like a Blackmagic P4K or capable DSLR. There isn't. 

when you are in the field you want to be able to work fast and reliable.

There are reasons some cameras cost 2000 and others 5000. First of all I have spend hundrends of euros for Tilta cage/powering/CFast/SSD/Nano focus/front ND and IR filters (just order a Hoya for that) that are not convinient to work with, and still searching for a better vND than the ones I have/sound options/weird body, e.t.c

With the C70, just add another battery, 2 SD cards, and you are ready to go. No need for building anything on the field, or worry that everything will work, and I work H265 since 2015-2016 with my first NX, so it is nothing to me..

I will say it again, professionals want to worry LESS on the filed, less is more, less is safer, less is better.

I never use my Pocket, because I do not want to worry about hanging cables, SSD drives and USB C connections (I bought the CFAST back then for 500euros because I didn't want to worry about loosing footage), then I have to add the NPF adapter, a Focus monitor, various things on and in and around the Tilta cage, and other stuff..

Working with - cheap- cine cameras is liberating, even if it is 2 or 3 times the price of a GH5S or a P4K.

Building setups like Lego are destined for huge productions at the top of the industry, or exactly the opposite on the lower end. Where most work happens, in the middle, people prefer all in one solutions, yes, even camcorders, mind you, imagine the C70 has the price of some of those camcorders!

[Mmmbeats]

1 hour ago, bwhitz said:

Not misguided... change my mind. 

Point 3 is the one that I disagree with the most.  The results from using a cinema camera over a DSLR, mirrorless or similar are indeed 'magical' if you look at the target user.

For a working professional in virtually any area of moving image acquisition the advantages of using something like the EOS line over something like (say) the Sony Alpha line have included:

• Reliability
• Built-in ND
• Professional audio connections and controls
•  Additional Customisable buttons
• Video-centric form factor (admittedly not the case for the C70)

Of course there isn't the image quality gap between the top-tier prosumer models and the professional cameras that there used to be, especially when you look at the image coming from cameras like the S1H.  The emergence of high-quality tools at an relatively entry-level price has been great for all of us!  But there does come a time where a purpose-built fully-resourced industrial machine is what's required for the job.

A while back I did an event shoot with my GH5S.  I'd checked my audio setup well in advance, but developed a problem just before the event was about to start.  What followed was a panicky troubleshoot through my audio-route going into the camera.  I had to unplug and replug 9 different connections (running from mic receivers to preamp to camera, back to preamp, and up into my headphones) before isolating the problem just in the nick of time - not a particularly comfortable experience!

The real moral of this story, as I'm sure @IronFilm will agree, is to always hire a proper sound recordist!  But the other thing it taught me is that you need the right tools for the job.

Of course there are times when a mirrorless or similar is great - when you're just starting out, when you're trying to look civilian, when you need to be ultra-lightweight, etc.  But sooner or later you are going to want more facilitation, and you probably won't mind too much paying a bit more to get it.  That's my view.  

[bwhitz]

2 minutes ago, Kisaha said:

 

I will say it again, professionals want to worry LESS on the filed, less is more, less is safer, less is better.

Well I'm a professional and something like the Pocket4k/6k is perfectly fine. I've had literally ZERO issues. Add a V-mount... like you would to literally ANY other professional cine cam. You think people shooting Red or Arri's complain that everything doesn't fit into a tiny-package and they have to add almost every accessory? What exactly are you shooting? Have you seen the camera's they shoot movies with?  

[bwhitz]

11 minutes ago, Mmmbeats said:

Point 3 is the one that I disagree with the most.  The results from using a cinema camera over a DSLR, mirrorless or similar are indeed 'magical' if you look at the target user.

Yes, to concede a fair-point (because I wasn't very specific) if you're doing documentary or event work... something with allot of built-in features is probably worth it over pure-image-quality (or close enough quality). But, I'd still argue that if you have a controlled set, lighting, ect. a $5,000-$15,000 camera isn't going to magically get you better results than a Blackmagic or good DSLR. anymore. I've even seen a Alexa vs P6K video where the Pocket looked BETTER. Same with Red, the current Blackmagics look better, IMO, than even something like the bit-older Red Dragon's (which I've used extensively).

[herein2020]

5 hours ago, SteveV4D said:

To be honest, when I say RAW, I am just as much referring to ProRes or any codec that is easier to edit with than H264 and H265.  As I said before, these are delivery codecs not editing codecs.  Whilst I'd not argue that most here don't need RAW, many would benefit from a codec that edited easier whilst keeping file size to a respectable level.   So my wish is less RAW and more an editable codec other than H264 and H265.

My wish is that all of this so called H.264 and H.265 hardware accelerated encoding actually worked. I'm sure it helps but it never seems to be enough to make actual editing smooth and I always end up making proxies anyway.

With that being said I have pre-ordered the C70. I figure its better to be on the list and cancel then to wish I was on the list. I have been thinking more and more about cancelling though, although this is my dream gimbal camera the more I think about the type of jobs that I do the more uncertain I am that I would be willing to use a camera this costly to do them. Weddings, events, music videos, and corporate work simply do not need a $6KUSD camera on a gimbal. The R6 is what I truly need and the camera that is in the right price bracket for my work but we all know how that turned out.

 

[tupp]

5 hours ago, bwhitz said:

2. Some people actually LIKE the boomer-protectionism of the 1980's technology markets. I.e. hacks can just say "I own X or Y expensive camera! You HAVE to hire me now!"

No need for ignorant bigotry.

 

The notion that camera people got work in the 1980s by owning cameras couldn't be further from the truth.  "Hiring for gear" didn't happen in a big way until digital cameras appeared, especially the over-hyped ones -- a lot of newbie kids got work from owning an early RED or Alexa.  To this day, clueless producers still demand RED.

 

Back in 1980's (and prior), the camera gear was almost always rented if it was a 16mm or 35mm shoot.  Sure, there were a few who owned a Bolex or a CP-16 or 16S, or even an NPR with decent glass, but it was not common.  Owning such a camera had little bearing on getting work, as the folks who originated productions back then were usually savvy pros who understood the value of hiring someone who actually knew what they were doing.  In addition, camera rentals were a standard line-item in the budget.

 

Of course, there was also video production, and Ikegami and Sony were the most sought-after brands by camera people in that decade.  Likewise, not too many individuals owned hi-end video cameras, although a small production company might have one or two.

 

Today, any idiot who talks a good game can get a digital camera and an NLE and succeed by making passable videos.  However, 99% of the digital shooters today couldn't reliably load a 100' daylight spool.

[maxmizer]

9 hours ago, independent said:

It's the same sensor. The magic is a dual gain output, like Arri. But not the same; Canon's advantage is in the shadows while Arri's is in the highlights. So you should still protect the highlights w/ the C300iii or C70 

you have narrowly intended my post ..
when he was he was instead generallized ...
that is: do not confuse things that although similar (very similar) but not the same ...ok

[SteveV4D]

8 hours ago, herein2020 said:

My wish is that all of this so called H.264 and H.265 hardware accelerated encoding actually worked. I'm sure it helps but it never seems to be enough to make actual editing smooth and I always end up making proxies anyway.

With that being said I have pre-ordered the C70. I figure its better to be on the list and cancel then to wish I was on the list. I have been thinking more and more about cancelling though, although this is my dream gimbal camera the more I think about the type of jobs that I do the more uncertain I am that I would be willing to use a camera this costly to do them. Weddings, events, music videos, and corporate work simply do not need a $6KUSD camera on a gimbal. The R6 is what I truly need and the camera that is in the right price bracket for my work but we all know how that turned out.

 

With RAW or ProRes, the C70 would be my main camera, and worth every penny.  Without that codec, it would run side by side with the Pockets.  Gimbal work, run n gun; as you say, an expensive investment for such use. 

It's a shame that Canon and Sony have the corner on reliable AF as both companies frustrate me with their products for different reasons.  I really wish Panasonic would get their AF sorted and then make their own version of the C70.  I'm sure they'd be less conservative with their features, though their L lenses need more options.  It will also be interesting to see if BM responds to this camera.  Something sitting between the Pocket 6K and URSA 12K could be very interesting.

Ultimately I hope the C70 sells well and to be honest, many do need a reliable, workhorse of a camera, so it should.  I'ce become frustrated with hybrids recently as I rarely shoot photos and prefer a dedicated smaller video camera now.  It could be the C70s greatest legacy is forcing other camera manufacturers to look into their own version of it, and that is something I would welcome.

[SteveV4D]

9 hours ago, Mmmbeats said:

A while back I did an event shoot with my GH5S.  I'd checked my audio setup well in advance, but developed a problem just before the event was about to start.  What followed was a panicky troubleshoot through my audio-route going into the camera.  I had to unplug and replug 9 different connections (running from mic receivers to preamp to camera, back to preamp, and up into my headphones) before isolating the problem just in the nick of time - not a particularly comfortable experience!

I tend to capture audio externally with a recorder rather than feed into the camera, which adds another layer of connections with minimum benefit to me.  There is a hotshoe audio unit for the Panasonic; were you using that?  Not sure what the difference between this and internal audio of the C70, aside from proper XLR connections vs mini.  You get the same level of access to controls.

The C70 isn't out yet and no guarantee it will behave differently to the GH5s.  Its a lot closer in cost to the GH5s than to the C300, which would have been a better fit for your situation.

[Mmmbeats]

1 hour ago, SteveV4D said:

I tend to capture audio externally with a recorder rather than feed into the camera, which adds another layer of connections with minimum benefit to me.  There is a hotshoe audio unit for the Panasonic; were you using that?  Not sure what the difference between this and internal audio of the C70, aside from proper XLR connections vs mini.  You get the same level of access to controls.

The C70 isn't out yet and no guarantee it will behave differently to the GH5s.  Its a lot closer in cost to the GH5s than to the C300, which would have been a better fit for your situation.

Yes, either an external recorder or the DMW XLR adaptor would have been a better set up than the one I rigged (using a Beachtek preamp).  But for ease-of-use plugging multiple sources directly into the camera is the winner.  That's something that none of the smaller units can do - even the Pocket cams have only one balanced audio in if I recall correctly.

Of course quality, and control, are different matters, and I do have my eye on the Mix-Pre series recorders to be honest.  But there are times when you just want to plug and go. 

I'd much prefer to own a C300III than the C70, but financially I don't think that will happen for a while yet.

There's the value proposition that I'm trying to highlight - as you say, the C70 is closer to the GH5S in price, but it appears to be closer to the C300III in features and output.

[Mmmbeats]

Just to temper the excitement a bit - is anybody seeing any good footage from this camera yet?
 

The first people to get their footage out always seem to be the camera stores, and unfortunately their films are not great.

The film that seems to show what the camera can do so far has been the Give This Heart a Pen one, which is an over-saturated look I'm not super fond of, but it demonstrates the cameras capabilities well.

A lot of my excitement is based on seeing C300III footage and assuming or hoping that a similar level of excellence can be achieved, tempered by the fact that some of the C300 footage was shot in RAW.

[SteveV4D]

25 minutes ago, Mmmbeats said:

Yes, either an external recorder or the DMW XLR adaptor would have been a better set up than the one I rigged (using a Beachtek preamp).  But for ease-of-use plugging multiple sources directly into the camera is the winner.  That's something that none of the smaller units can do - even the Pocket cams have only one balanced audio in if I recall correctly.

Of course quality, and control, are different matters, and I do have my eye on the Mix-Pre series recorders to be honest.  But there are times when you just want to plug and go. 

I'd much prefer to own a C300III than the C70, but financially I don't think that will happen for a while yet.

There's the value proposition that I'm trying to highlight - as you say, the C70 is closer to the GH5S in price, but it appears to be closer to the C300III in features and output.

I would say the Panasonic adaptor is as versatile as plugging directly into the camera itself.  Mounted in the hotshoe, its really becomes a part of the camera from that point on.  

I agree the C70 has features more associated with the C300 than the GH5s.  The mini XLR maybe a weaker link compared to full XLR connectors.  Much like I prefer full HDMI over micro or mini.  I only use the Pocket mini XLR for a shotgun mic for better quality background sound.  I would be reluctant to use it for bringing in audio from  say a sound desk.  I'd rather capture audio separately with maybe a backup into the camera.

[Mmmbeats]

1 hour ago, SteveV4D said:

I would say the Panasonic adaptor is as versatile as plugging directly into the camera itself.  Mounted in the hotshoe, its really becomes a part of the camera from that point on.  

I agree the C70 has features more associated with the C300 than the GH5s.  The mini XLR maybe a weaker link compared to full XLR connectors.  Much like I prefer full HDMI over micro or mini.  I only use the Pocket mini XLR for a shotgun mic for better quality background sound.  I would be reluctant to use it for bringing in audio from  say a sound desk.  I'd rather capture audio separately with maybe a backup into the camera.

I've used the DMW (if I'm getting it's name right) and it's a really good unit.  I'll probably pick one up even if I get an external recorder, and even if I demote the GH5S.  The thing is though, I'm pretty sure you are still going to want to strip the camera from time to time, whether for transport, or for a top handle, or for a smaller package.  This makes it one more thing to manage and set up, one more thing to forget to pack! (I only very rarely have a packing incident!).

Mini XLR is not as much of a deficit as micro HDMI as the connection is still locking.  I'll probably just have a pair of short adaptors permanently attached if I can find a good way to secure them ( though I admit, that's just the kind of 'riggy' stuff I'm trying to get away from).

I do generally plug a rented Zoom recorder into the sound desk for redundant sound, but end up using the camera feed just for convenience.  Events are not my main line of work, so my gear is not yet optimised for it really.  Managing to service the jobs fine though, so it's not a big problem.

[herein2020]

28 minutes ago, Mmmbeats said:

I've used the DMW (if I'm getting it's name right) and it's a really good unit.  I'll probably pick one up even if I get an external recorder, and even if I demote the GH5S.  The thing is though, I'm pretty sure you are still going to want to strip the camera from time to time, whether for transport, or for a top handle, or for a smaller package.  This makes it one more thing to manage and set up, one more thing to forget to pack! (I only very rarely have a packing incident!).

Mini XLR is not as much of a deficit as micro HDMI as the connection is still locking.  I'll probably just have a pair of short adaptors permanently attached if I can find a good way to secure them ( though I admit, that's just the kind of 'riggy' stuff I'm trying to get away from).

I do generally plug a rented Zoom recorder into the sound desk for redundant sound, but end up using the camera feed just for convenience.  Events are not my main line of work, so my gear is not yet optimised for it really.  Managing to service the jobs fine though, so it's not a big problem.

I have the GH5 with the XLR adapter and a MixPre6 as well as a C200. I think the XLR adapter or XLR straight into the C200 is great for a single mic or a mic and a backup mic, but I learned the hard way just a few days ago that if you have multiple speakers the Mix-Pre is way better. It was a pain to manually audio duck in Davinci Resolve the two speakers that I had; the stereo mix out of the MixPre for 4 speakers was less work than manually mixing two speakers from the onboard audio.

 

For the C70 I really don't consider the mini XLR a big deal, as you mentioned it is not as bad as mini HDMI. One thing I wouldn't do though is leave the adapters plugged in, I always feel like things sticking out of a camera port will weaken the circuit board over time as they get wiggled and moved in your bag. I'd just load up on about 6 adapters, two go in my emergency kit in my car (along with memory cards, random power cables, etc), two stay in the bag with the camera at all times (since they are so small) and two go in my dedicated audio case where I keep all of my cables, the MixPre, etc. 

 

Also, for my particular use case, this camera would primarily be a gimbal camera, audio would not be that important to me.