Canon Cinema EOS C70 - Ah that explains it then!

[herein2020]

2 minutes ago, aaa123jc said:

The description of clients is so true. Many simply don't value the skill of a videographer. They think they hire us because we own a camera and if they do, they can easily do our jobs. How hard can it be, when they're already making videos or taking stills with their smartphone? 

To convince a client the value of quality gear and skillful videographer is very hard until they can see the result. I have a client who thought I charge too much so he decided to hire his friend to film the next corporate event. Then he knew I didn't get paid because I owned a big and bulky FS5. 😆

Anyway, I don't own any camera at the moment because the lack of work. I sold many lens as well. I can't justify having them sitting on the shelf, collecting dust, while I am struggling to pay rent. I go to rental house when I have a paid job to do. 

Yes I think the cell phone is really hurting this industry for events. My next least favorite trend is somehow in my area wedding photographers are paid more than wedding videographers. These days it seems like the videographers are hired as an afterthought and only with whatever funds are left over from the wedding photographer.  I've turned down multiple requests this year because they had no budget and every one of them had already hired their wedding photographer.

 

I'm with you for this year.....I cancelled my C70 order, I had so many low budget clients approach me in the past few weeks that I decided its better to wait and see. Instead I am getting the S5 as a gimbal camera / B cam and if I get a shoot that could use the C70 I'll just rent it.

[aaa123jc]

3 minutes ago, herein2020 said:

Yes I think the cell phone is really hurting this industry for events. My next least favorite trend is somehow in my area wedding photographers are paid more than wedding videographers. These days it seems like the videographers are hired as an afterthought and only with whatever funds are left over from the wedding photographer.  I've turned down multiple requests this year because they had no budget and every one of them had already hired their wedding photographer.

 

I'm with you for this year.....I cancelled my C70 order, I had so many low budget clients approach me in the past few weeks that I decided its better to wait and see. Instead I am getting the S5 as a gimbal camera / B cam and if I get a shoot that could use the C70 I'll just rent it.

Yeah that sucks. The trend is the same regarding wedding here in Hong Kong as well. That's why wedding videos in Hong Kong tend to look very horrible. Poorly exposed images shot with wide lenses, tons of unnecessarily gimbal shots... etc. Luckily I am in the event business where videos get paid more. It's only because of COVID I am next to jobless for 8 months. 😅

The S5 looks very nice and I actually like Panasonic very much. Hope you have a nice experience with the S5. 

[Mmmbeats]

The places where cinema cameras tend to differentiate themselves well from lower end cameras is dynamic range and highlight roll-off.  Obviously these are somewhat related, but it occurs to me that while the C70 seems to have big advantages over say, the C200, in shadow detail, it seems (from the limited footage available so far) to be less capable in the highlights.

That's what I'm seeing in the side-by-side tests (CVP and Giannis Saroukos tests).  Also, the highlight rendition in the footage so far is not stellar.  But it's hard to judge because most footage is either not very highlight rich, or has deliberate stylistic overexposure (Saroukos), which looks pretty but makes it hard for me to work out how well the camera is handling that range.  

There is also a significant (though probably not problematic) reduction in sharpness compared to the C200 RAW (and obviously the C300III RAW).

I'll be watching this quite closely because if I'm going to be spending £5K on a camera, and at this point it still seems quite likely, then it needs to have an image that elevates above the mirrorless cameras below it.  We'll see.

[ntblowz]

6 hours ago, herein2020 said:

Yes I think the cell phone is really hurting this industry for events. My next least favorite trend is somehow in my area wedding photographers are paid more than wedding videographers. These days it seems like the videographers are hired as an afterthought and only with whatever funds are left over from the wedding photographer.  I've turned down multiple requests this year because they had no budget and every one of them had already hired their wedding photographer.

In here video always get paid less than photographer for wedding, but for corporate it's the otherway round.

 

I get paid more for covering motospot races than full on wedding.

 

 

[mkabi]

Those of you guys doing wedding videos... don’t take this the wrong way.... but you are doing something wrong. I don’t know what you’re doing, but I know it’s not right.

There are venues that are going as high as $50 or $100 per person. The average cost of a wedding as per google search is $33,900... are you telling me that couples are willing to forego the cost properly capturing those moments? 

Your telling me that people are not willing to spend at least 10% of their budget on properly capturing the event itself???

May be they don’t see value in it.... at which point skip those people.... 

But, you need to lean in on those that do see value in video and lean in hard!!! Which means.... package it properly.... and throw in a crap load of marketing behind it.

Let me be honest here... I got married in 2010.... I hired pretty much a nobody... barely had a portfolio to show... he was fresh out of film school and he was recommended by the photographer. But, from the small portfolio that he did have, I was super impressed - my now wife... I had to convince. He charged $3800 (Canadian)... my mom complained stating exactly what you guys are saying.... “videography shouldn’t cost more than photography” - He made her eat her words by the end of it. BTW, photography cost $3200....this was at the cusp of the DSLR revolution.... he was running around with a 7D and 50mm.... But at the end of the day.... this guy came full guns blazing. He filmed with us for about 12 to 14 days... (that alone is going the extra mile) and created a 20 minute short for the wedding. At the wedding itself, he came with a 12 foot crane/jib (4 extra guys); had posters of the 20 minute short (all over the place) and a 2 minute trailer of the short (full video was shown at the reception). When he finished that day alone... FYI -there were 700+ people at my wedding (I’m Hindu)... 8 people signed up and he charged $5200 per person. Thereafter he signed way more by showing people the final cinematic cut of the wedding itself. And, he even packaged the tangible products properly - from the Blu-Ray/DVD menu to the cover and housing of the disc. I got the original disc in a leather case, and regular DVDs (however many I wanted) in a custom plastic case. 

Owning a camera and knowing how to edit the footage is not enough. Ask yourself how many steps ahead are you from the regular joe (owning the same or similar camera)??? It has to be visible differences though. If you’re going to talk about DR and noise reduction.... people don’t see that.... do you know why photography is more expensive??? And people are willing to spend money on it?? There are physical - tangible products at the end of it - a physical and custom album and custom framed pictures or canvas pictures <- people see that.... it’s visible... a DVD or USB stick.... sure it’s something... but it’s not framed on the wall or anything. 

Im hoping that you guys are seeing the visible products that pretty much acted as a marketing campaign for the guy that I hired. If you don’t see it, let me list it out: Camera jib (that’s something the regular guy doesn’t own), movie posters, trailer, 20-short, 45 minute cinematic cut (final product) and leather casing.

Sure that seems like a lot of work.... and it is... but then ask yourself again how many steps ahead are you from a regular joe who owns the same or similar equipment that can do it for free?

 

 

[mkabi]

Here is another tip..... at no point....  should you have an uncle come up to you and say.... "Hey, I own the same camera as you... you think you can do a better job than me?"

Do you know how to avoid that?

Gaffer tape the labels, and build the shit out of it.... put a cage, matte box, focus gear, external monitor, mic it up. Make it look like a $50,000 camera instead of a $3000 camera.... people need to physically see where the money is going.... small and deinty can be operated by small and non-professional people.

Going back to the camera jib - thats the difference... a gimbal... everyone seems to have a gimbal nowadays (even the regular joe - that ends up being an enthusiast) and its so friggin small.... its not obtrusive.... so everyone can bother with a gimbal. Nobody can bother with a jib... its too big to use on the regular.... but its in everyone's face <- people see value in that....

Whats the difference between a Toyota and a Rolls-Royce? Figure it out and show the people why you're a Rolls-Royce.

[ntblowz]

50 minutes ago, mkabi said:

Those of you guys doing wedding videos... don’t take this the wrong way.... but you are doing something wrong. I don’t know what you’re doing, but I know it’s not right.

 

2010 and 2020 is quite a lot of difference

The house price went from avg $440K to $950K here, but the wage didn't increase double. As result of that more people just do civil marriage or smaller weddings, and the number of people getting married is down each year as well, while more wedding videographer pop up each year as equipment is getting much easier and cheaper to aquire.  So more people grabbing a shrinking pie.

 

We done jibs before too, album covers, poster etc, and even rent Red Helium.  Just the overall trend of wedding market is down in general. I stopped wedding as my main income around 2016, I  only do second shoots if my video friend need help, otherwise i just defer inquiry to my friends as it just not worth the hassle for me when I get better return elsewhere.

[mkabi]

3 minutes ago, ntblowz said:

2010 and 2020 is quite a lot of difference

the house price went from avg $440K to $950K here, but the wage didn't increase double. As result of that more people just do civil marriage or smaller weddings, and number of people getting married is down each year while more wedding videographer pop up each year.  So more people grabbing less pie.

 

We done jibs before too, album covers, poster etc, and even rent Red Helium.  Just the overall trend of wedding market is down in general. I stopped wedding as my main income around 2016, I  only do second shoots if my video friend need help, otherwise i just defer inquiry to my friends as it just not worth the hassle for me when I get better return elsewhere.

Red Helium is a touch overboard (in my opinion). And, I'm not disagreeing... there is going to be competition (no doubt) - but you need to figure out how to differentiate yourself. Rolls Royce has Bentley and a slew of other car companies... people are still buying those in a world where house prices have gone up from $440K to $950K, right???

 

 

[ntblowz]

31 minutes ago, mkabi said:

Red Helium is a touch overboard (in my opinion). And, I'm not disagreeing... there is going to be competition (no doubt) - but you need to figure out how to differentiate yourself. Rolls Royce has Bentley and a slew of other car companies... people are still buying those in a world where house prices have gone up from $440K to $950K, right???

 

 

That is very true, hence I m moving away from wedding, profit margin just too low vs corporate or motorspot for billionaire.

 

[Mmmbeats]

Okay - I'm gonna say it...

Can we please move this thread back on topic? 😉

[EphraimP]

1 hour ago, Mmmbeats said:

Okay - I'm gonna say it...

Can we please move this thread back on topic? 😉

Yes please. I could give a rat's ass about weddings. I am, however, interested in the C70. I'll likely buy if I can't get the producer of a doc project I'm starting to fork over for one. I wish there were rumors of what the mythical XH-2 will be like. If it were as Fuji version of this one I'd be all over it. 

[IronFilm]

5 hours ago, mkabi said:

He filmed with us for about 12 to 14 days...

Surely you meant HOURS not days? Otherwise CAD$3800 is waaaaaaaaaaaaaay undercharging!

[mkabi]

35 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

Surely you meant HOURS not days? Otherwise CAD$3800 is waaaaaaaaaaaaaay undercharging!

not a typo..... lol.... 20 min. short - we created like a 25 page scripted short. It was fun.... the guy was a perfectionist and several takes were required. But, I completely agree it was undercharging... nonetheless... imagine a $40K+ ROI.

[Kisaha]

Makes me wanna puke. Hate weddings and most of the above. Even this summer with jobs significantly down, I rejected all weddings jobs I was offered. I need a 4-5 years brake for the ones I did a few years back!

Please do a wedding thread and talk there. 

This is a C70 Canon camera thread. Let's talk hardware.

[Mmmbeats]

Some footage that is new to me (apologies if it's been posted before) :

 

 

Looks nice enough, but doesn't really address any of my concerns / areas of interest.

[SteveV4D]

1 hour ago, Mmmbeats said:

Some footage that is new to me (apologies if it's been posted before) :

 

 

Looks nice enough, but doesn't really address any of my concerns / areas of interest.

Yikes, another washed out grade... I've seen a better image from Canon, so must be the style choice... I just prefer grades with a bit more punch... 

[PaulUsher]

On 9/26/2020 at 10:56 AM, ade towell said:

What are peoples options for a decent run around zoom with IS?

The 17-55mm 2.8 had a big vignette on the c200 and I think will do the same here - it could really do with a version 2. The 18-80mm T4.4 Canon lens is wonderful and has servo but is also expensive. That leaves the good old 24-105mm f4 plus speedbooster (still quite a chunk of money) but then your AF is compromised (only covers 60% I think I read with speedbooster). The 18-135 stm lens is good for outside run n gun but slow and not a very exciting image

The RF lenses are all full frame so not wide enough 

Any decently priced zooms with IS, it seems Canon like Sony have been neglecting s35 on the lens front these last few years?

There’s the excellent RF 15-35, not a lot of reach but will be great for indoors. Though in that use case I’d prefer the Sigma 18-35 and just use digital IS, if it’s as good on the C70 as it is on my R. I personally like the 18-135 image, and for outdoor ENG, especially when paired with a body (like the C70) that supports corrective auto iris. There’s the option to add servo ‘power zoom‘ with the nano version, but I never did. 
 

For a one and done though, I’d still be rocking that trusty 17-55 and cropping out any really obvious vignetting in post, when needed. My C100 would crop in for EF-S lenses so hoping the C70 has a similar setting, maybe combined with some fancy RF-era improvement for peripheral illumination correction. For me the only thing against 17-55 is its autofocus - old fashioned and certainly not the smoothest - yeah it’s definitely been crying out for an upgrade for years! Still, it’s a solid doc lens, I’d never sell mine. Not until we see some RF-S type glass but I won’t hold my breath.
 

C70 ticks a lot of my boxes on paper (except EVF... hmmm) so looking forward to scrutinising footage of its DR etc and keen for some real world reports - especially on the ergonomics.. Not sure how it would feel, how I’d hold it (or brace it, especially without EVF) or how well my usual rig would work with it. Sounds like nitpicking but I’d definitely want to rent one before investing.

[PaulUsher]

On 9/26/2020 at 10:56 AM, ade towell said:

What are peoples options for a decent run around zoom with IS?

The 17-55mm 2.8 had a big vignette on the c200 and I think will do the same here - it could really do with a version 2. The 18-80mm T4.4 Canon lens is wonderful and has servo but is also expensive. That leaves the good old 24-105mm f4 plus speedbooster (still quite a chunk of money) but then your AF is compromised (only covers 60% I think I read with speedbooster). The 18-135 stm lens is good for outside run n gun but slow and not a very exciting image

The RF lenses are all full frame so not wide enough 

Any decently priced zooms with IS, it seems Canon like Sony have been neglecting s35 on the lens front these last few years?

There’s the excellent RF 15-35, not a lot of reach but will be great for indoors. Though in that use case I’d prefer the Sigma 18-35 and just use digital IS, if it’s as good on the C70 as it is on my R. I personally like the 18-135 image, and for outdoor ENG, especially when paired with a body (like the C70) that supports corrective auto iris. There’s the option to add servo ‘power zoom‘ with the nano version, but I never did. 
 

For a one and done though, I’d still be rocking that trusty 17-55 and cropping out any really obvious vignetting in post, when needed. My C100 would crop in for EF-S lenses so hoping the C70 has a similar setting, maybe combined with some fancy RF-era improvement for peripheral illumination correction. For me the only thing against 17-55 is its autofocus - old fashioned and certainly not the smoothest - yeah it’s definitely been crying out for an upgrade for years! Still, it’s a solid doc lens, I’d never sell mine. Not until we see some RF-S type glass but I won’t hold my breath.
 

C70 ticks a lot of my boxes on paper (except EVF... hmmm) so looking forward to scrutinising footage of its DR etc and keen for some real world reports - especially on the ergonomics.. Not sure how it would feel, how I’d hold it (or brace it, especially without EVF) or how well my usual rig would work with it. Sounds like nitpicking but I’d definitely want to rent one before investing.

[PaulUsher]

On 9/26/2020 at 10:56 AM, ade towell said:

What are peoples options for a decent run around zoom with IS?

The 17-55mm 2.8 had a big vignette on the c200 and I think will do the same here - it could really do with a version 2. The 18-80mm T4.4 Canon lens is wonderful and has servo but is also expensive. That leaves the good old 24-105mm f4 plus speedbooster (still quite a chunk of money) but then your AF is compromised (only covers 60% I think I read with speedbooster). The 18-135 stm lens is good for outside run n gun but slow and not a very exciting image

The RF lenses are all full frame so not wide enough 

Any decently priced zooms with IS, it seems Canon like Sony have been neglecting s35 on the lens front these last few years?

There’s the excellent RF 15-35, not a lot of reach but will be great for indoors. Though in that use case I’d prefer the Sigma 18-35 and just use digital IS, if it’s as good on the C70 as it is on my R. I personally like the 18-135 image, and for outdoor ENG, especially when paired with a body (like the C70) that supports corrective auto iris. There’s the option to add servo ‘power zoom‘ with the nano version, but I never did. 
 

For a one and done though, I’d still be rocking that trusty 17-55 and cropping out any really obvious vignetting in post, when needed. My C100 would crop in for EF-S lenses so hoping the C70 has a similar setting, maybe combined with some fancy RF-era improvement for peripheral illumination correction. For me the only thing against 17-55 is its autofocus - old fashioned and certainly not the smoothest - yeah it’s definitely been crying out for an upgrade for years! Still, it’s a solid doc lens, I’d never sell mine. Not until we see some RF-S type glass but I won’t hold my breath.
 

C70 ticks a lot of my boxes on paper (except EVF... hmmm) so looking forward to scrutinising footage of its DR etc and keen for some real world reports - especially on the ergonomics.. Not sure how it would feel, how I’d hold it (or brace it, especially without EVF) or how well my usual rig would work with it. Sounds like nitpicking but I’d definitely want to rent one before investing.

[currensheldon]

For me, Canon's RF Mount has been a bit frustrating because using EF lenses actually gets you some really useful features on RF cameras. For the EOS R, R5, or R6, it's being able to use the amazing variable ND filter adapter, making swapping lenses so much easier. And now, for he C70, you can get full-frame FoV and an extra stop of light by using a speedbooster. The RF lenses are amazing, but since they are full-frame, give you some awkward focal lengths on Super35. The 24-70mm would be amazing with the C70 since it has IS, but a 35mm FoV on the wide end isn't wide enough. And the 15-35mm just won't have enough reach.

If I do end up getting the C70, then I think for doc-work, I would definitely snag the speedbooster and a 24-105mm f4, which would have the same FoV as on a full-frame and give me a f2.8 from 24-105mm. This is what I did with the Sony FS5 when I had it, and it's nearly perfect for doc-work. Either that for a 24-70mm (Canon or Sigma with IS) and have a 24-70mm f2 - pretty great lensing options there.