Canon Cinema EOS C70 - Ah that explains it then!

[crevice]

On 1/27/2021 at 11:32 AM, omega1978 said:

A friend own the canon c70 with Rf 28-70 2.0 and we have made some testshots with other Canon lenses. He is waiting the Canon Speedbooster..

Nice camera, little heavy, very big on a gimbal..

4K h265 4.2.0 10 bit Clog2 50 & 100p all handheld 

What do you think ?

 

 

looks great. i am contemplating the 24-70 2.8 or the 28-70 - how is the 28-70 with no IS or did you use it on a gimbal here?

[omega1978]

1 hour ago, crevice said:

looks great. i am contemplating the 24-70 2.8 or the 28-70 - how is the 28-70 with no IS or did you use it on a gimbal here?

Thank you !

28-70 is a very big and heavy lens. We use digital IS in this case. It was to big to balance on weebill s, so all handheld.

I think a 24-70 IS with speedbooster is a good option, altough AF is limted to 60% of sensorarea. We tested here Tamron G2 only with standard adapter an stablization and AF where fantastic( and very quite, on 28-70,35 1.4 you hear little clicking, but not significant )

 

[Django]

This test is kind of an eye opener. Seems Sony's strategy to fit FF sensors inside their cine FX line is the right move vs Canon. Better low-light, better AF etc. And with the E-ND the Sony really has a tech lead. In the end as he points out its a question of ecosystem but it does seem to me FX6 > C70. Any C70 users care to comment?

 

[EphraimP]

13 hours ago, Django said:

This test is kind of an eye opener. Seems Sony's strategy to fit FF sensors inside their cine FX line is the right move vs Canon. Better low-light, better AF etc. And with the E-ND the Sony really has a tech lead. In the end as he points out its a question of ecosystem but it does seem to me FX6 > C70. Any C70 users care to comment?

 

I'm not a C70 or FX6 shooter, but I gotta say, nothing new here. Yes, the Sony leads in low light/low light AF and the electronic ND. But, as has been discussed on YouTube and on this site and others endlessly, and in the video itself, there are other factors to consider, including ergonomics, noise, dynamic range, timecode availability, xlr port placement, etc. In the end, as with most near competitors, the whether one camera is "better" than the other based on an individual shooter's workflow, experience with a brand's ecosystem, shooting style and the lenses and other gear they already own. 

Both cameras can produce pretty great images, in the end. Like the dude in the video says, it's about the system you have/want to go with.

[independent]

In comparing the two, I think the Canon focal reducer/ speed booster needs to be added to the equation. Not only would that make it more equal in price, but it makes the c70 essentially full frame. 

There is a technical difference of course; while the focal reducer increases field of view and brightness, it doesn't change the DOF. Personally, I think that's a plus. I'd prefer the unique flexibility in gaining a stop in light without the accompanying razor-thin plane of focus. Just more practical. 

 

 

[Django]

9 hours ago, EphraimP said:

I'm not a C70 or FX6 shooter, but I gotta say, nothing new here. Yes, the Sony leads in low light/low light AF and the electronic ND. But, as has been discussed on YouTube and on this site and others endlessly, and in the video itself, there are other factors to consider, including ergonomics, noise, dynamic range, timecode availability, xlr port placement, etc. In the end, as with most near competitors, the whether one camera is "better" than the other based on an individual shooter's workflow, experience with a brand's ecosystem, shooting style and the lenses and other gear they already own. 

Both cameras can produce pretty great images, in the end. Like the dude in the video says, it's about the system you have/want to go with.

I think you're missing the point here. There is something new here and that is that Sony has started placing FF sensors instead of S35 sensors in all their cine line. It's a pretty BIG deal and certainly changes a lot, including some of those factors you are mentioning such as noise. TC is present in both products so I don't even know why you are listing it as a difference. 

By the way, I already mentioned that in the end it's a question of ecosystem but that doesn't mean we can't compare two new cine cameras from competing brands in a similar price bracket.

5 hours ago, independent said:

In comparing the two, I think the Canon focal reducer/ speed booster needs to be added to the equation. Not only would that make it more equal in price, but it makes the c70 essentially full frame. 

There is a technical difference of course; while the focal reducer increases field of view and brightness, it doesn't change the DOF. Personally, I think that's a plus. I'd prefer the unique flexibility in gaining a stop in light without the accompanying razor-thin plane of focus. Just more practical. 

Yeah the Canon speed booster is interesting, I'm not sure its available yet though as I haven't seen a single review of it. That said, from my experience with Metabones, they are handy tools but the IQ does suffer a bit and its just not the same as having a native FF sensor. 

Lets not forget a FF sensor can also crop to S35. Now the FF/S35 DoF not changing can be seen as an advantage or disadvantage depending on your preference. Perhaps a FF hybrid (R5/R6) + a S35 (C70) cine combo would give you best of both worlds and hence be the most versatile solution.

Definitely an interesting argument you are making there.

[EphraimP]

5 minutes ago, Django said:

By the way, I already mentioned that in the end it's a question of ecosystem

Fair, I missed that. I'm not saying we can't compare different cameras. My point was that it's pretty subjective to list one or two points and say that one camera is definitely better than the other because of only those points.

Yeah, I think the Sony variable END is an amazing feature and I wish Canon had it. On the other hand, the Dual Gain sensor means the C70 is batting at full frame levels when in comes to noise, even before adding on the speedbooster and gaining a stop of light -- but not in all modes and all ISO, which Canon will hopefully improve in future models. I think that's probably as big a deal as bringing a full frame sensor, maybe a bigger deal if they keep refining the implementation. Arri anyone? 

And the C70's ability to utilize EF lenses as if they were native plus the modern, short flange RF mount is pretty huge. How many more EF lenses are there in the world right now than E Mount? 

Any single shooter's style and experience are going to seriously color their perspective on what makes a camera better. And because final image quality is so close at the end of the day and honestly the end viewer can't tell the difference in all but the most extreme circumstances, what makes an individual shooter more comfortable getting the right shot is more important than technical gains at this point, IMHO.

Honestly, my "perfect" camera at this price range, which is the price range I'm ready to invest in for my next body, is probably a mashup of these two cameras. If I could get the FX6's form factor and e-VND and Canon's RF mount with EF adapter I'd be happy camper. I fall into the camp of thinking that Canon still has better out of the box color and IQ than the FX line, but the difference is damn close. So I feel it's a tossup between Sony's FF sensor and Canon's Dual Gain S35 sensor. I'm (not) holding my breath to see what the rumored C200 Mark 2 looks like when it comes out in April.

Most clients paying for work shot on cameras at this price point won't be able to see the difference even if we can split hairs over it on the board. The people who watch the videos I make online sure as hell won't notice. If I'm doing my job right they'll be wrapped up in the story.

[Django]

1 hour ago, EphraimP said:

Fair, I missed that. I'm not saying we can't compare different cameras. My point was that it's pretty subjective to list one or two points and say that one camera is definitely better than the other because of only those points.

Yeah, I think the Sony variable END is an amazing feature and I wish Canon had it. On the other hand, the Dual Gain sensor means the C70 is batting at full frame levels when in comes to noise, even before adding on the speedbooster and gaining a stop of light -- but not in all modes and all ISO, which Canon will hopefully improve in future models. I think that's probably as big a deal as bringing a full frame sensor, maybe a bigger deal if they keep refining the implementation. Arri anyone? 

And the C70's ability to utilize EF lenses as if they were native plus the modern, short flange RF mount is pretty huge. How many more EF lenses are there in the world right now than E Mount? 

Any single shooter's style and experience are going to seriously color their perspective on what makes a camera better. And because final image quality is so close at the end of the day and honestly the end viewer can't tell the difference in all but the most extreme circumstances, what makes an individual shooter more comfortable getting the right shot is more important than technical gains at this point, IMHO.

Honestly, my "perfect" camera at this price range, which is the price range I'm ready to invest in for my next body, is probably a mashup of these two cameras. If I could get the FX6's form factor and e-VND and Canon's RF mount with EF adapter I'd be happy camper. I fall into the camp of thinking that Canon still has better out of the box color and IQ than the FX line, but the difference is damn close. So I feel it's a tossup between Sony's FF sensor and Canon's Dual Gain S35 sensor. I'm (not) holding my breath to see what the rumored C200 Mark 2 looks like when it comes out in April.

Most clients paying for work shot on cameras at this price point won't be able to see the difference even if we can split hairs over it on the board. The people who watch the videos I make online sure as hell won't notice. If I'm doing my job right they'll be wrapped up in the story.

As someone invested in both Canon & Sony systems I can assure you I quite realise the fact that you can get great IQ out of both systems, and that in 95% cases the end client/viewer will not know the difference. While these type of blanket statements are obviously true, they don't really advance the discussion within the filmmaking community that ARE aware of key differences that WILL make a difference in the actual shooting environment. And while native lens selection & ergonomics are subjective, other technical details like sensor size, resolution, codecs, raw support, ENDs etc are not.

Getting back to the subject of sensor size (of which I might create its own thread) I think it's really interesting the route Sony took with putting FF sensors inside their traditionally S35 cine cams. I think this may be an advantage. The Canon R5 (and even R6 to some extent) is kinda proof that those sensors can actually output superior IQ to their S35 counterparts. It's kind of a an odd situation when you're consumer hybrid camera can shoot 8K Raw and you're $15K C500 II flagship can't !

[IronFilm]

11 hours ago, EphraimP said:

there are other factors to consider, including ergonomics, noise, dynamic range, timecode availability, xlr port placement, etc

I'd say on most of these points, the FX6 would win out over the C70

[Mmmbeats]

On 3/3/2021 at 8:20 AM, Django said:

Lets not forget a FF sensor can also crop to S35.

Not the FX6.  It has an essentially 4K sensor so can't do a 4K S35 crop (you can do 1080p).

Seriously head-turned by the camera though.

[Django]

16 minutes ago, Mmmbeats said:

Not the FX6.  It has an essentially 4K sensor so can't do a 4K S35 crop (you can do 1080p).

Seriously head-turned by the camera though.

You’re right, hadn’t realized the FX6/FX3/A7S3 can’t do 4K S35 crop, that eliminates a ton of lens & punch-in options.

I guess advantage R5/R6 who can do both and C70 as well with the speed booster.

[TomTheDP]

On 3/2/2021 at 10:13 PM, independent said:

In comparing the two, I think the Canon focal reducer/ speed booster needs to be added to the equation. Not only would that make it more equal in price, but it makes the c70 essentially full frame. 

There is a technical difference of course; while the focal reducer increases field of view and brightness, it doesn't change the DOF. Personally, I think that's a plus. I'd prefer the unique flexibility in gaining a stop in light without the accompanying razor-thin plane of focus. Just more practical. 

 

What? Speedboosters effect DOF as well. A full frame camera and a S35 camera speedboosted with the same lens will look the same. 

 

17 minutes ago, Mmmbeats said:

Not the FX6.  It has an essentially 4K sensor so can't do a 4K S35 crop (you can do 1080p).

Seriously head-turned by the camera though.

Yeah this is only true with 6k sensors. 

 

On 3/2/2021 at 4:08 AM, Django said:

This test is kind of an eye opener. Seems Sony's strategy to fit FF sensors inside their cine FX line is the right move vs Canon. Better low-light, better AF etc. And with the E-ND the Sony really has a tech lead. In the end as he points out its a question of ecosystem but it does seem to me FX6 > C70. Any C70 users care to comment?

 

Yeah the Sony really takes the lead for me. If Canon hadn't of gimped the C70's auto focus is might be a different story. RAW recording on the Sony is also a big advantage. Combine those two things with E-ND and its no contest for me. 

The C70 also takes a hit in dynamic range at 4k 120p, not a big deal but just another thing. 

[Mmmbeats]

Just now, TomTheDP said:

What? Speedboosters effect DOF as well. A full frame camera and a S35 camera speedboosted with the same lens will look the same. 

You're both right.  The reason is complicated.

Basically -

• same lens / different sized sensor = same DoF
• same lens / same framing / different sized sensor = different DoF

[TomTheDP]

2 hours ago, Mmmbeats said:

You're both right.  The reason is complicated.

Basically -

• same lens / different sized sensor = same DoF
• same lens / same framing / different sized sensor = different DoF

I’m talking about with a speedbooster. A S35 camera with a speed booster and a 35mm lens will look the same as a full frame camera with a 35mm lens. There is often a slight difference as most speedboosters reduce the crop slightly less than 1:1. 

[IronFilm]

4 hours ago, TomTheDP said:

What? Speedboosters effect DOF as well. A full frame camera and a S35 camera speedboosted with the same lens will look the same. 

 

Yeah this is only true with 6k sensors. 

 

Yeah the Sony really takes the lead for me. If Canon hadn't of gimped the C70's auto focus is might be a different story. RAW recording on the Sony is also a big advantage. Combine those two things with E-ND and its no contest for me. 

The C70 also takes a hit in dynamic range at 4k 120p, not a big deal but just another thing. 

How did Canon gimp the C70's AF?

[omega1978]

7 hours ago, Mmmbeats said:

Not the FX6.  It has an essentially 4K sensor so can't do a 4K S35 crop (you can do 1080p).

Seriously head-turned by the camera though.

You can use clear image zoom in 4k 

 

[Django]

 

10 hours ago, TomTheDP said:

Yeah the Sony really takes the lead for me. If Canon hadn't of gimped the C70's auto focus is might be a different story. RAW recording on the Sony is also a big advantage. Combine those two things with E-ND and its no contest for me. 

The C70 also takes a hit in dynamic range at 4k 120p, not a big deal but just another thing. 

Right, but according to Gerald Undone, the C70 actually has superior DR than FX6/A7S3 (with NR turned off) at 60p and below. So it's kind of a toss up as far as DR imo.

[Mmmbeats]

8 hours ago, TomTheDP said:

I’m talking about with a speedbooster. A S35 camera with a speed booster and a 35mm lens will look the same as a full frame camera with a 35mm lens. There is often a slight difference as most speedboosters reduce the crop slightly less than 1:1. 

It's the same thing.  In both cases, all you are doing is seeing a wider portion of the same imaging circle, so naturally the depth of field does not change.

[Mmmbeats]

5 hours ago, omega1978 said:

You can use clear image zoom in 4k 

 

You can but I don't fully trust it.  It's nothing more than digital interpolation, though admittedly brilliantly implemented using AI.  I've steered clear of that kind of artifice so far, so I'd want to do a ton of testing before relying on it.  

[omega1978]

1 hour ago, Mmmbeats said:

You can but I don't fully trust it.  It's nothing more than digital interpolation, though admittedly brilliantly implemented using AI.  I've steered clear of that kind of artifice so far, so I'd want to do a ton of testing before relying on it.  

is upscaled 3.2 k to 4 k, on the FS5 at 1.3-1.4 x magnification was not bad, beyond was very digital.