Canon Cinema EOS C70 - Ah that explains it then!

[mercer]

The crazy thing is that a couple years ago everybody was complaining that Canon wasn't giving its customers enough resolution. Now they give 8K and people still hate them.

[Emanuel]

People love to whiningly complain, that's the whole picture :- )

[Emanuel]

15 hours ago, Video Hummus said:

I’m leaning C70 since I already have R5. I’m sure we will see FF C camera in the under $6K price range in the future. Would love a FF C70 with internal ND. But is there enough room in the body for all of that?

I think to be posted 'just 15 hours ago' sounds too confusing...

I guess a R5C (because that C is not there for nothing) with internal ND, you mean? ; )

[Django]

7 hours ago, mercer said:

The crazy thing is that a couple years ago everybody was complaining that Canon wasn't giving its customers enough resolution. Now they give 8K and people still hate them.

Exactly. Not only did Canon pave the way for 8K but also internal RAW, the holy grail people have been asking for since 5D2.. and now that its here, with compressed LT options even, people are still bitching the file sizes are too big etc.  

The funniest is hearing Panasonic users moaning about how the R5C uses DPAF1.. 

Canon just can't win here no matter what it seems!

[webrunner5]

Canon sucks ass and you know it. Biggest joke as of late in my lifetime. Gimp the living hell out of everything they sell.

[Video Hummus]

3 hours ago, Django said:

Exactly. Not only did Canon pave the way for 8K but also internal RAW, the holy grail people have been asking for since 5D2.. and now that its here, with compressed LT options even, people are still bitching the file sizes are too big etc.  

The funniest is hearing Panasonic users moaning about how the R5C uses DPAF1.. 

Canon just can't win here no matter what it seems!

But there is only OIS + digital stabilization so IT's clearly a piece of shit camera!

I'm not a brand fanboy but sometimes people just like to hate. I loved my Panasonic MFT cameras, but they sat on their asses for too long so I moved on. Canon is clearly upping their game. It's a good thing. Maybe Sony will finally put shutter angle in their FX3 camera.

 

[independent]

Canon is making good enough cameras so far. It's a cutthroat business and making shitty cameras isn't going to help.

We're not getting better cameras if say Sony was the only game in the town. Innovation is incentivized through competition, and the improvement in camera tech over the past 10 years has been nothing short of astounding. 

Lastly, not sure why so many are emotional. Pretense of certain obligations? Companies have to abide by consumer protection laws, but none are obligated to fulfill your personal idea of a perfect camera that violates all patents that's infinitely future proof with unlimited upgrades with a lifetime warranty.

A company's aim is to sell you something. If you don't like it, don't buy. 

 

 

[Kino]

C70 in low light featuring rich tones and subtle gradations:

RAW in this camera would be amazing, but you don't really need it. The camera is already reaching C300/C500 RAW quality with XF-AVC:

[kye]

5 hours ago, Kino said:

C70 in low light featuring rich tones and subtle gradations:

RAW in this camera would be amazing, but you don't really need it. The camera is already reaching C300/C500 RAW quality with XF-AVC:

Not bad but pretty hard to tell as not many shots with neutral lighting.

It is, however, an excellent video to play a game of "spot the shots they did noise reduction on".  YouTube LOVES footage without any noise, it has a party and you get fun things like this!

or this:

It makes sense that doing slow-motion in such an environment would give some noise, so no judgement there.  The secret is to do NR to all the shots in post, then apply some grain over the top so all the shots are even.  YT compression will clobber the texture of the grain, but it will prevent the banding.

It would be interesting to see some RAW vs compressed shots of skintones in a controlled environment with pristine CRI and exposures.

[Kino]

9 hours ago, kye said:

Not bad but pretty hard to tell as not many shots with neutral lighting.

It is, however, an excellent video to play a game of "spot the shots they did noise reduction on".  YouTube LOVES footage without any noise, it has a party and you get fun things like this!

or this:

It makes sense that doing slow-motion in such an environment would give some noise, so no judgement there.  The secret is to do NR to all the shots in post, then apply some grain over the top so all the shots are even.  YT compression will clobber the texture of the grain, but it will prevent the banding.

It would be interesting to see some RAW vs compressed shots of skintones in a controlled environment with pristine CRI and exposures.

I noticed the banding but assumed it was YouTube compression since I haven't seen it on C70 footage before. I believe uploading in 8K fixes some of these compression issues on YT.

What I love about the C70, in contrast with the R5's more brittle image, is the highlight roll-off, color saturation (especially in low light), and overall cinematic quality, which are all evident in those clips. The image is nice and creamy:

[Django]

 

17 hours ago, Kino said:

RAW in this camera would be amazing, but you don't really need it. The camera is already reaching C300/C500 RAW quality with XF-AVC:

I know seeing that you almost have to wonder how much better can it get?

That DGO sensor is incredible. The DR, the rolloff, the super clean shadows..

Quote

What I love about the C70, in contrast with the R5's more brittle image, is the highlight roll-off, color saturation (especially in low light), and overall cinematic quality, which are all evident in those clips. The image is nice and creamy

Agreed, although R5's 8K RAW is impressive. I'm still tempted to lean in favour of C70 as far as IQ champ just cuz of that sensor. Especially with RAW around the corner.

[kye]

4 hours ago, Kino said:

I noticed the banding but assumed it was YouTube compression since I haven't seen it on C70 footage before. I believe uploading in 8K fixes some of these compression issues on YT.

It's definitely the YT compression, but you just need to prepare for it before uploading.

I've done a few tests before with various combinations of NR and adding noise etc and just uploaded the video in Private mode so you can see what the compression does to it.

Uploading in 8K doesn't really change the lower resolutions - watch a 4K video in 360p and you'll see what I mean 🙂 

[Emanuel]

5 hours ago, Django said:

 

I know seeing that you almost have to wonder how much better can it get?

That DGO sensor is incredible. The DR, the rolloff, the super clean shadows..

Agreed, although R5's 8K RAW is impressive. I'm still tempted to lean in favour of C70 as far as IQ champ just cuz of that sensor. Especially with RAW around the corner.

In theory, two stops of difference at least is huge, it's 4x wider as far as DR concerns which obviously should produce an impact on IQ and hightlights roll off but, we didn't see any comparative test in the field yet, so the jury is still out on that... ;- )

[ade towell]

12 hours ago, Django said:

 

I know seeing that you almost have to wonder how much better can it get?

That DGO sensor is incredible. The DR, the rolloff, the super clean shadows..

Agreed, although R5's 8K RAW is impressive. I'm still tempted to lean in favour of C70 as far as IQ champ just cuz of that sensor. Especially with RAW around the corner.

If you don't need the photo side of it (I think you already have an R6?) then I would say the C70 wins for ease of use, nds and audio, battery life and the DR difference is huge - brings it much closer to the big boy cameras in image quality. Adding RAW is the icing or gravy, choose your topping

The only thing holding me back from C70 is no evf (I hate this recent trend) but that depends on how you use the camera, lots of folk it seems don't use them

[Mmmbeats]

On 1/17/2022 at 8:56 PM, BenEricson said:

 

I would just think if the project is that important, why not spend the money and go with a more suited camera system? The Alexa's 444 ProRes files likely look much better and will save time and money in post. Maybe even the RED saves you money because of the editing speed.

End of the day... If you want the best image quality, you'll have to deal with a painful work flow. The joy of the Canon Cinema Cameras for me is the ease of use. All around.

I think the point is, if you've invested in a tool for everyday delivery, can you pull out the same device (with associated lenses, accessories, etc.) when you need to jump up in quality?
I appreciate your point, but not every project allows for a body hire like that.

[Django]

1 hour ago, ade towell said:

If you don't need the photo side of it (I think you already have an R6?) then I would say the C70 wins for ease of use, nds and audio, battery life and the DR difference is huge - brings it much closer to the big boy cameras in image quality. Adding RAW is the icing or gravy, choose your topping

The only thing holding me back from C70 is no evf (I hate this recent trend) but that depends on how you use the camera, lots of folk it seems don't use them

I have several FF cameras including an R6 so yeah I guess I'm good on the photo side, plus I don't really need 45MP.

R5C's 8K Raw though is a big deal as far as future proofing and the stills you can extract from 8K Raw are very usable.

On a IQ level, I think the biggest C70 criticism was the image being a bit soft compared to cameras that oversample, have RAW or have higher resolution like the BMPCC6K. I'm expecting the upcoming RAW to really lift that veil by adding significant sharpness/detail which is going to be important on a '4K only' camera.

But of course the NDs, audio, battery life, and the C300II DGO sensor are indeed the big pluses that also make me lean towards C70.

The lack of EVF isn't a deal breaker to me as I never use them on these types of compact bodies. Only on my FS7 when it's in shoulder mount "ENG" rig position.

[ade towell]

All good points, I've not had much luck taking stills from video unless there's little movement in the shot - slow shutter speed always creates blur, I guess shooting in 50p and 1/100 or even 100p 1/200 and bringing back to 25p in post could work but may compromise quality.

In my world I don't see 8k being asked for any time soon and by then there will likely be better and cheaper camera available. To be honest most of what I shoot still gets delivered in HD, your requirements may well be different of course. I would personally take better DR and usability over higher resolution and possible future proofing

Haven't noticed softness in C70 footage but maybe subconsciously that's what I've liked about it, some of the R5 8k footage I've seen looks almost too sharp and video like. Admittedly I've only seen it on 4k screen so maybe it comes into its own viewed at native resolution. Not experienced an 8k screen yet

Anyway nice to have choices I think you'd probably be happy with either, both camera produce a lovely image

[Django]

Oh I don't deliver nor expect to deliver anything in 8K soon but I can certainly notice the increase in resolution of 6K/8K footage or 6K/8K oversampled 4K footage vs 1:1 4K even on a laptop screen. Of course on my 5K iMac Pro the difference becomes crystal clear.

Also keep in mind R5C also shoots 5.9K which sounds like a good middle ground resolution option.

Sharpness isn't the main allure of 6K/8K for me though but rather the cropping possibilities. Even on a simple talking head interview. But also on product shots where you can zoom, pan etc from a static shot. Basically the same type of tricks 4K allows when you're delivering HD but twice the crop amount and/or for 4K delivery. So I definitely could see where I take advantage of those +4K resolutions.

I do hear what you mean about 8K footage looking too sharp/video but the key to alleviate that is using older/softer glass. All the R5 YT demos are using the super sharp/clinical RF glass. But pop even a EF 50 1.2L or older vintage FD lenses and you're probably in for a treat. 

For 8K stills, of course you might have to adapt shutter speed to avoid blur but the results can be quite nice:

https://www.lauschsicht.ch/2022/01/19/canon-eos-r5c-erster-eindruck-review-und-film/

Still  just on a IQ level, C70's DR & the low shadow noise and overall cinematic IQ of the C300II DGO sensor is definitely something to consider over 6K/8K resolution. The low DR on my R6 definitely limits certain types of shots, how you expose etc.

[TomTheDP]

I just tested the color between the C70, Alexa, and Pana S1. The C70 was very close to the ARRI. I was surprised how great the color and roll off were. This was using mixed lighting too.

The rolling shutter and dynamic range aren't as good as ARRI but I am very tempted to buy one now. I wish it had SDI's and a less plasticy body, but that's nitpicking.
 

[kye]

2 hours ago, TomTheDP said:

I just tested the color between the C70, Alexa, and Pana S1. The C70 was very close to the ARRI. I was surprised how great the color and roll off were. This was using mixed lighting too.

The rolling shutter and dynamic range aren't as good as ARRI but I am very tempted to buy one now. I wish it had SDI's and a less plasticy body, but that's nitpicking.
 

Any chance of sharing the test, and original files?  I'd be VERY keen to play with them and see how they compare!