Canon Cinema EOS C70 - Ah that explains it then!

[Trek of Joy]

Some of this is interesting, certainly the DGO sensor, smaller form factor and the OEM speedbooster - but not interesting enough to make me cancel my a7sIII order. The lack of an EVF in 2020 on a mirrorless camera is just a head scratcher. Adding a $1000 Zcam or some ancient Zacuto one is silly on a $5500 camera. WTF Canon?

Chris

[Thomas Hill]

1 hour ago, hijodeibn said:

perfect DPAF

@ 13:00

 

[EphraimP]

5 hours ago, Video Hummus said:

I’m referring to the still rumored C50.

The C70 has the C300 Mark 3 DGO sensor.

Gotcha. Critical reading skills and all that.

5 hours ago, Video Hummus said:

I think this camera is more aimed at solo shooter doing paid gigs like weddings, event shooting, small business commercial stuff, YouTube.

You timecode jam two of these at a wedding and shoot to your hearts content. If it took stills it would be my all in one. But lets see what they do with the IDX RF camera. Very likely could be a FF C70.

I've seen a lot of marketing material positioning the C70 to be a b-cam/gimbal cam/drone cam to support c500/300 A cams. Though being able to sync two wedding would probably be great, how many wedding shooters can afford $11k+ for a two camera package? 

I think a C500/C70 package is the ultimate low(-ish) budget cinema/doc package. All the benefits of a FF cine camera for your A cam and a gimbal/high frame rate b-cam that cuts perfectly and has best-in-class autofocus capacity. Now, if I could find someone to give me about $25k to buy/rig these out... 😉

[EphraimP]

38 minutes ago, Trek of Joy said:

Some of this is interesting, certainly the DGO sensor, smaller form factor and the OEM speedbooster - but not interesting enough to make me cancel my a7sIII order. The lack of an EVF in 2020 on a mirrorless camera is just a head scratcher. Adding a $1000 Zcam or some ancient Zacuto one is silly on a $5500 camera. WTF Canon?

Chris

How many people actually shoot video on hybrid cams using the EVF? I totally understand a side-mounted EVF for shoulder mount cams, but have never seen anyone shoot video from the traditional photographer's position.

[independent]

An EVF is a great thing to have, but I've primarily used the LCD for the touchscreen focus on the R5, even in daylight - I just change the viewing angle. I've also used the Ninja V on top of the R5, which was quite good during daylight too. The availability of even higher nit monitors somewhat mitigates the issue. 

To be honest, I never liked the EVF placement on any of the Canon cinema cameras, and I've either owned or operated almost every single one of them (not the C700). It's not very ergonomic to hold the camera in that position. The EVF is best placed on the side of the camera, for shoulder-mount. None of the canon cinema cameras were ENG ready out of the box. 

For bigger productions, the C70 would be primarily used for gimbals, so no EVF needed. For indie shoots, I would imagine it would be used mostly on sticks or if handheld, with the top handle for cradle shots or on easyrigs. 

[Andrew Reid]

I am wondering why the put the best chip and image in the stills camera.

Full frame.

8K.

RAW.

So why not put that in the more expensive model as well?

[Mmmbeats]

In terms of a straight-up image quality shoot out - do people expect the C200 (with  RAW Light, but an older sensor) or the C70 (with DGO, but video compressed codecs) to win?

I'm seeing the DGO sensor outperform the C200 in the chart tests.  Does C200 RAW still have any advantages (over the C70 video image) do people expect?

Obviously a bit speculative until there is more footage available, but still...

[Video Hummus]

1 hour ago, EphraimP said:

Gotcha. Critical reading skills and all that.

I've seen a lot of marketing material positioning the C70 to be a b-cam/gimbal cam/drone cam to support c500/300 A cams. Though being able to sync two wedding would probably be great, how many wedding shooters can afford $11k+ for a two camera package? 

I think a C500/C70 package is the ultimate low(-ish) budget cinema/doc package. All the benefits of a FF cine camera for your A cam and a gimbal/high frame rate b-cam that cuts perfectly and has best-in-class autofocus capacity. Now, if I could find someone to give me about $25k to buy/rig these out... 😉

If you don’t need RAW and were shopping for the C300 Mark 3 then you could get two of these and sync them up for the same price. They work better on a gimbal as well. Seems good to me.

I’m still flipping between this or a R5. The RF glass prices are butt hurting.

[independent]

They will. But it'll be in the Canon C500 III. 

2 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

I am wondering why the put the best chip and image in the stills camera.

Full frame.

8K.

RAW.

So why not put that in the more expensive model as well?

 

[Video Hummus]

2 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

I am wondering why the put the best chip and image in the stills camera.

Full frame.

8K.

RAW.

So why not put that in the more expensive model as well?

Yeah. The R5 is a mystery to me. It’s like they overcompensated and then crippled it at the last moment so they could do another generation of 8K cameras.

The whole reason I’m thinking about moving to RF is for a future FF C70 style cinema camera from them. Or a R5 Mark II that isn’t horribly compromised.

I just don’t see L-mount doing well and Sony of course is strangling everybody else. 

[EphraimP]

2 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

I am wondering why the put the best chip and image in the stills camera.

Full frame.

8K.

RAW.

So why not put that in the more expensive model as well?

It is a bit of a head scratcher. They probably will, in time. And it will cost...

Just now, Video Hummus said:

If you don’t need RAW and were shopping for the C300 Mark 3 then you could get two of these and sync them up for the same price. They work better on a gimbal as well. Seems good to me.

I’m still flipping between this or a R5. The RF glass prices are butt hurting.

Yeah, but if you don't like shooting on gimbals all the time and prefer the cine-handheld style then the C300 still wins. It's a horses for courses type situation. 

About RAW on the C70, Canon has signaled that if they get enough pressure from consumers they are open to putting it in. Maybe as an over HDMI function?

 

[independent]

5 minutes ago, Mmmbeats said:

In terms of a straight-up image quality shoot out - do people expect the C200 (with  RAW Light, but an older sensor) or the C70 (with DGO, but video compressed codecs) to win?

I'm seeing the DGO sensor outperform the C200 in the chart tests.  Does C200 RAW still have any advantages (over the C70 video image)?

More flexibility. You can still push the color grade much more w/ 12-bit raw. And with some post work, de-noising, you can probably get it to look closer to the shootouts.

But the c70/c300iii 10-bit 422 XFAVC looks great straight out of the camera if you don't screw up too badly with exposure, white balance, etc. Faster turnaround, you don't have to spend as much time in post.

[Video Hummus]

3 minutes ago, EphraimP said:

About RAW on the C70, Canon has signaled that if they get enough pressure from consumers they are open to putting it in. Maybe as an over HDMI function?

External RAW via HDMI doesn’t interest me, personally. But it might be a great value add incase you want to squeeze out those extra stops of DR and match C300 Mark 3. 

[Video Hummus]

6 minutes ago, independent said:

More flexibility. You can still push the color grade much more w/ 12-bit raw. And with some post work, de-noising, you can probably get it to look closer to the shootouts

What are people doing they need to push stuff around that much?

[Mmmbeats]

Another question - which codec do people think is going to yield the highest image quality? 

Sure,  XF-AVC, ALL-I at 410Mbps seems like a winner, but I have a feeling that H.265, Long-GOP at 225Mbps might be even better because of efficiency at the allocated bitrate. 

[independent]

The C70 is an interesting intermediate option during this critical turning point in lens mount. RF lenses, and the RF mount, are clearly the future; Canon is not making any more EF lenses. Also, technically the RF L lenses are superior, which matters. I've tested the EF 50 1.2 v RF 50 1.2, and the resolving power of the RF is significantly superior. For static shots, you will immediately notice the difference (shot in 8K raw, viewed on 5K monitor).

Also, for some lenses, there's not a huge price difference between EF and RF (24-105 F4 retails for the same, RF 15-35mm v EF 16-35mm is $200 retail difference). 

That being said, with the EF focal reducer adapter, you get the full frame look. It's not cheap at $600, but it's still way cheaper than the $11,000 c300iii that's still stuck w/ crop sensor.

Then again, you could also just use the $100 EF/RF adapter and use the lovely Sigma 18-35mm and the Canon nano-usm zooms that are dirt cheap and silent for video. You can walk away with a $5600 ready to shoot package.

It's a very flexible camera.

 

 

 

[independent]

13 minutes ago, Video Hummus said:

What are people doing they need to push stuff around that much?

Green screen/vfx. Unpredictable lighting. "Artists." R3d users. Me and my R5

[docmoore]

1 hour ago, Andrew Reid said:

I am wondering why the put the best chip and image in the stills camera.

Full frame.

8K.

RAW.

So why not put that in the more expensive model as well?

Just watched the Pro-AV stream ... where one of the contributors uses a C200 (couple of them) and transitioned to the C300 MK III. He is a

professional "colourist" hired to correct others video.

https://www.imdb.com/name/nm8304151/

His take is that the picture out of the DGO sensor in XF_AVC All I is preferable to the Raw out of the C200. The DR of the sensor, low noise and color

obviates the need for RAW ... and with the new Canon Speed Booster the lack of FF may be a non-issue. So the best sensor in his mind

is the one in the C70 ...

I have begun a conversation with my dealer about dropping the 1 DX III for the C 70 ... and I have all MF glass. Canon have not addressed a flaw

in their Raw acquisition ... still getting corrupted frames in the lowest frame rate with their favored CFExpress cards ... great color workflow and

resolution but chasing bad frames adds 3X the time a normal render ...

[docmoore]

10 minutes ago, docmoore said:

Just watched the Pro-AV stream ... where one of the contributors uses a C200 (couple of them) and transitioned to the C300 MK III. He is a

professional "colourist" hired to correct others video.

https://www.imdb.com/name/nm8304151/

His take is that the picture out of the DGO sensor in XF_AVC All I is preferable to the Raw out of the C200. The DR of the sensor, low noise and color

obviates the need for RAW ... and with the new Canon Speed Booster the lack of FF may be a non-issue. So the best sensor in his mind

is the one in the C70 ...

I have begun a conversation with my dealer about dropping the 1 DX III for the C 70 ... and I have all MF glass. Canon have not addressed a flaw

in their Raw acquisition ... still getting corrupted frames in the lowest frame rate with their favored CFExpress cards ... great color workflow and

resolution but chasing bad frames adds 3X the time a normal render ...

Here is a link to Ollie's Film Production Company

https://www.korro.co.uk/

[IronFilm]

4 hours ago, EphraimP said:

I've seen a lot of marketing material positioning the C70 to be a b-cam/gimbal cam/drone cam to support c500/300 A cams. Though being able to sync two wedding would probably be great, how many wedding shooters can afford $11k+ for a two camera package? 

C70 for weddings will be more common than you think.

While I almost never do wedding filmmaking these days, I know back when I was, the C100 was very very very very common. (even worked on shoots using the C300mk1, except it wasn't called "mk1" as there was no mk2 then!)

Yes, today in 2020 the C70 is waaay higher priced than a C100. 
But when you compare the price of the C70 to the original C100 pricing, they're not too far off. 

C70 is going to be 2020's new "C100".
(well, unless the C50 ends up being that, which is probably what will happen. But that's just part of the general trend of cine cameras getting cheaper and cheaper)