jaybirch Posted April 9, 2012 Share Posted April 9, 2012 [quote author=Axel link=topic=548.msg3620#msg3620 date=1333995244] Only later did they compare the AVCHD-version from the SDHC-card, 24 mbit VBR, we know it. There was almost no difference (seems the HDI-SDI-output was simply not 10-bit 4:2:2). [/quote] Well, yea... the camera needs 10bit architecture throughout. Hopefully this new breed will (although I could see an 8bit cripple of the AF200 if they bring it in the $5k-$6k market). Even then, 4:2:2 internal would be sweet, if the 8bit is well implemented. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gene_can_sing Posted April 9, 2012 Share Posted April 9, 2012 [quote author=hoodlum link=topic=548.msg3623#msg3623 date=1333997127] [quote author=gene_can_sing link=topic=548.msg3619#msg3619 date=1333994811] I wondering if Panasonic is going release an industry standard 1.5-ish crop? Hate to say this, but if Panasonic sticks with the Micro 4/3rd 2x crop, it will never be used on high profile, marquee type projects no matter how high the resolution. The aesthetic is noticeably different, at least to Pros. Can they make Micro 4/3rd at least a 1.6x crop? Is that even possible? [/quote] You could say the same about FF vs 1.5 crop. Actually the difference between m43 (1.85 crop in video) vs 1.5 crop is small compared to the drop from FF. Lens selection will have a greater impact. [/quote] Depends on who you talk to. GH2 fanboys will say there is very little difference, to many other people, there is definitely a noticeable difference between 1.5x and m43rds in DOF. Plus, a HUGE difference if you are shooting super wide or with fisheye type lenses where a difference of 2 to 3mm is an entirely different composition. For the pro market (many of whom are very particular), Panasonic shot themselves in the foot with M43. But I'm wondering if Panasonic can somehow adjust the crop to make it wider? Or is that impossible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaybirch Posted April 9, 2012 Share Posted April 9, 2012 I think people will overlook the crop factor for internal 12bit 4:4:4 People always gripe about something or other... but push comes to shove, would you prefer full frame 4:2:0 8 bit or M3/4, 4:4:4, 12 bit (not to mention 4K). Only a few times have I ever stressed about a wide shot on the GH2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axel Posted April 9, 2012 Share Posted April 9, 2012 [quote author=gene_can_sing link=topic=548.msg3626#msg3626 date=1334000839]For the pro market (many of whom are very particular), Panasonic shot themselves in the foot with M43.[/quote] What kind of pros? Independant filmmakers who shoot image-videos for homepages? Freelancers who do just everything to be able to pay the next rent and who are asked by the band's manager, if half the salary was in order? I am an amateur, all right. This doesn't make me blind. When did you last see such a shallow DoF as with full frame sensor in a big film? The first films that used this intentionally were [i]Die Hard[/i] and [i]Alien3[/i]. Before it was considered unprofessional. Most DOPs who work for cinema stop down to f4, or so it looks. They isolate the foreground, but not extremely. But of course you are right. The whole MFT standard is not professional. Who cares? (btw: I like my ambivalent signature) In a way the EOS 5D beats all the competitors because it lets all the so-much-desired details swim away in a romantic blur, [i]because[/i] of the big sensor. And the isle of so-called sharpness in the middle glows with heavenly flesh-tones. That's the worst about the Panasonics, they make people look dead. Everywhere the wrong questions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Andrew Reid Posted April 9, 2012 Author Administrators Share Posted April 9, 2012 [quote author=gene_can_sing link=topic=548.msg3626#msg3626 date=1334000839] [quote author=hoodlum link=topic=548.msg3623#msg3623 date=1333997127] [quote author=gene_can_sing link=topic=548.msg3619#msg3619 date=1333994811] I wondering if Panasonic is going release an industry standard 1.5-ish crop? Hate to say this, but if Panasonic sticks with the Micro 4/3rd 2x crop, it will never be used on high profile, marquee type projects no matter how high the resolution. The aesthetic is noticeably different, at least to Pros. Can they make Micro 4/3rd at least a 1.6x crop? Is that even possible? [/quote] You could say the same about FF vs 1.5 crop. Actually the difference between m43 (1.85 crop in video) vs 1.5 crop is small compared to the drop from FF. Lens selection will have a greater impact. [/quote] Depends on who you talk to. GH2 fanboys will say there is very little difference, to many other people, there is definitely a noticeable difference between 1.5x and m43rds in DOF. Plus, a HUGE difference if you are shooting super wide or with fisheye type lenses where a difference of 2 to 3mm is an entirely different composition. For the pro market (many of whom are very particular), Panasonic shot themselves in the foot with M43. But I'm wondering if Panasonic can somehow adjust the crop to make it wider? Or is that impossible. [/quote] M43 isn't the right choice for the AF100 or successor(s). It was a consumer format so that the lenses could be smaller and more portable. Panasonic thought - hey, let's be first to the market with the AF100 and do it as fast as possible with our existing sensor and lenses. I'd be very surprised if the NAB 2012 cameras are M43rd's. M43 does however get a bad rap for having a smaller than idea sensor size. I have never really found it a massive issue to be honest, and the difference is actually quite small and more than compensated for by focal length and aperture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tzedekh Posted April 10, 2012 Share Posted April 10, 2012 [quote author=jaybirch link=topic=548.msg3592#msg3592 date=1333974640] I think there will be two 4/3rd cameras.... AF200 (1080p, P2, AVC Ultra, 10bit, 4:2:2 $8k) and AF500 (4K, P2, AVC Ultra, 12bit, 4:4:4, $16k) and possibly a 1/4" or 1/2" camera for broadcast. AVC Ultra will be immense. No more external recorders and P2 is not as crazy expensive as a few years ago. Anyone here who hasn't used P2 are in for a treat... Such a great, reliable system. [/quote] I don't get why your AF200 should cost so much, other than Panasonic wishing to increase profit margins. The HPX250 (with 1080p, P2, and AVC-Intra 100) is less than $6K, and the AF100 less than $5K. Strip out the HPX250's more complex imaging block and expensive 22X zoom lens and add the simpler m4/3 imager. I'm no sure including AVC-LongG really improves upon AVC-Intra 100 (which already does 10-bit 4:2:2), but OK. (As far as I'm aware, neither codec supports 1080p60 or higher frame rates.) So, if the technology is already there in a reasonable-size package, why would combining it increase the price by 30% to 60%? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
christianhubbard Posted April 10, 2012 Share Posted April 10, 2012 [quote author=Andrew Reid - EOSHD link=topic=548.msg3631#msg3631 date=1334008425] [quote author=gene_can_sing link=topic=548.msg3626#msg3626 date=1334000839] [quote author=hoodlum link=topic=548.msg3623#msg3623 date=1333997127] [quote author=gene_can_sing link=topic=548.msg3619#msg3619 date=1333994811] I wondering if Panasonic is going release an industry standard 1.5-ish crop? Hate to say this, but if Panasonic sticks with the Micro 4/3rd 2x crop, it will never be used on high profile, marquee type projects no matter how high the resolution. The aesthetic is noticeably different, at least to Pros. Can they make Micro 4/3rd at least a 1.6x crop? Is that even possible? [/quote] You could say the same about FF vs 1.5 crop. Actually the difference between m43 (1.85 crop in video) vs 1.5 crop is small compared to the drop from FF. Lens selection will have a greater impact. [/quote] Depends on who you talk to. GH2 fanboys will say there is very little difference, to many other people, there is definitely a noticeable difference between 1.5x and m43rds in DOF. Plus, a HUGE difference if you are shooting super wide or with fisheye type lenses where a difference of 2 to 3mm is an entirely different composition. For the pro market (many of whom are very particular), Panasonic shot themselves in the foot with M43. But I'm wondering if Panasonic can somehow adjust the crop to make it wider? Or is that impossible. [/quote] M43 isn't the right choice for the AF100 or successor(s). It was a consumer format so that the lenses could be smaller and more portable. Panasonic thought - hey, let's be first to the market with the AF100 and do it as fast as possible with our existing sensor and lenses. I'd be very surprised if the NAB 2012 cameras are M43rd's. M43 does however get a bad rap for having a smaller than idea sensor size. I have never really found it a massive issue to be honest, and the difference is actually quite small and more than compensated for by focal length and aperture. [/quote] That being said, do you expect the GH3 to maintain the m43 format, or go to a larger sensor? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaybirch Posted April 10, 2012 Share Posted April 10, 2012 [quote author=Tzedekh link=topic=548.msg3654#msg3654 date=1334065556] I don't get why your AF200 should cost so much, other than Panasonic wishing to increase profit margins. The HPX250 (with 1080p, P2, and AVC-Intra 100) is less than $6K, and the AF100 less than $5K. [/quote] Well, i'm just guessing, so don't hold me to that price. :P I just think a large sensor, 10bit architecture is going to cost. I don't know the ins and outs of sensor/camera design.... but $8k for a 10bit 4:2:2 internal 100mbps Camera seems about right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tzedekh Posted April 10, 2012 Share Posted April 10, 2012 [quote author=mike_tee_vee link=topic=548.msg3609#msg3609 date=1333987910] A VG20 competitor with the GH2 sensor would be intriguing. Sony continuously releases these lame duck VG models at nearly 3x the price of the NEX 5N levels that are completely crippled. The market allows this because there are NO competitors at this stage. [/quote] If it had 12 stops of dynamic range, AVC-LongG (10-bit 4:2:2) or at least 10-bit 4:2:2 HDMI out (with timecode), some sort of log profile, and a sub-$2K price, it would be nearly perfect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tzedekh Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 So I guess no big Panasonic announcement today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nahua Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 People make such a big deal of DOF for Full Frame vs M4/3, but it's only one stop. I intercut 5DmkII and GH2 footage all the time. Only one stop difference really - F2.8 GH2 = F4 5DmkII, same for ISO, ISO1250 GH2 = ISO 640 5DmkII. Sure lenses can be an issue, but it's not such a big deal. Besides how often can you realistically shoot at F1.2 and rack focus? Seriously? Because you still need to shoot F4 at least to keep people in focus on a 5DmkII. I for one would welcome a M4/3 pro camera successor to the AF100/101. If it has the GH2 sensor, 8bit or 10bit, at least it would have all the features of a pro camcorder - like XLR audio, audio monitoring, ND filters, peaking - all the things I wish my GH2 had. I would gladly pay $5-6K for that. Don't know why there's so much hate for M4/3 on this thread really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axel Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 [quote author=nahua link=topic=548.msg3735#msg3735 date=1334174667]Don't know why there's so much hate for M4/3 on this thread really.[/quote] I don't see hate. Take the Pentax (now Ricoh) "Pentax Q" with it's proprietary Q-mount. Designed to make an EVIL (Electronic_Viewfinder-with-Interchangeable_Lens) smaller and lighter. In the past few decades there were a lot of examples of such systems that never were developed any further. cul-de-sac. They believe that this is the fate of M4/3. But not because the Lumix or Olympus were shopkeepers - as photo-cameras for amateurs. On the contrary. It's only the idea of putting a diminutive plastic lens that weighs as much as a candy bar on a brick-like chunk of camcorder like the AF100 that makes the, uhm, serious pros frown. The form factor is optimized for small size. Less would be large sensor no longer, larger would make the camera bodies also larger and heavier. There are a lot of advantages of small size that are not understood by wannabe-pros who need monumental rigs to show off their professionality and distinguish themselves from the amateurs. I am curious how a device like this for the 5D will do: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiqT4gVEa0s Assumed it is any good in quality, I nevertheless doubt that it sells well. Because it looks wrong to have a camera that - properly made up - [i]can[/i] look like a Panavision and is made to look like a boring, [i]reasonable[/i] camcorder. So I guess I made a few friends among the GH2 fanboys now. But why all the pettiness? M4/3 is for GH2, E-Mount for Nex, APCS for the Rebel T2 and so on. As you wrote, nahua, you can mix everything. I found out that the GH2 is a missing link between the Sony EX-camcorders and the 5D Mii. There is proof enough that this works fine. For guys who are evaluated by their clients by the size of their equipment it may be wise to follow the motto "size matters". If you are not hampered by this misconception, understatement is your friend. Remember Keyser Söze from [i]The Usual Suspects[/i]? Sometimes it is smart to feign modesty, this might get you to places that impostors never reach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ipcmlr Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 So is there even an announcement?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Andrew Reid Posted April 13, 2012 Author Administrators Share Posted April 13, 2012 It is on Sunday. Not sure what it will bring apart from the new codec yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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