Panasonic S5 User Experience

[Lux Shots]

3 hours ago, Mark Romero 2 said:

Wait... do you mean that 1080p 60fps is bad in 10-bit h.264??? Is it conformed in camera???

I haven't yet shot in 1080p 60fps 10-bit on my S1 yet so I don't even know what to expect. (I usually shoot at 30fps and slow to 24fps on the timeline.)

1080p 10-bit 60p is okay, but if you want ready to go slo-mo modes like VFR, they removed all of that and put it on the S&Q dial, which is all mp4 low bitrate trash. 😠

Look at what's available in the S&Q mode in my attached photos.

[Mark Romero 2]

2 minutes ago, Lux Shots said:

1080p 10-bit 60p is okay, but if you want ready to go slo-mo modes like VFR, they removed all of that and put it on the S&Q dial, which is all mp4 low bitrate trash. 😠

Look at what's available in the S&Q mode in my attached photos.

Thanks for the clarification.

I never owned a GH5, only Sony, so I am not entirely clear what Variable Frame Rates (VFR) is exactly. Does that mean you could pick some random non-standard frame rate (like, 73fps, for example) instead of the "standard" frame rates like 24p / 30p / 50p / 60p / 120p???

lamenting Out Loud: I am still a bit confused by the Panasonic way of (what appears to be) having to pick your container (mp4, mov) or your codec (havc, hevc) prior to picking your frame rate, resolution, and bit depth. Kind of seems like they are putting the cart in front of the horse.

[herein2020]

48 minutes ago, Mark Romero 2 said:

Thanks for the clarification.

I never owned a GH5, only Sony, so I am not entirely clear what Variable Frame Rates (VFR) is exactly. Does that mean you could pick some random non-standard frame rate (like, 73fps, for example) instead of the "standard" frame rates like 24p / 30p / 50p / 60p / 120p???

lamenting Out Loud: I am still a bit confused by the Panasonic way of (what appears to be) having to pick your container (mp4, mov) or your codec (havc, hevc) prior to picking your frame rate, resolution, and bit depth. Kind of seems like they are putting the cart in front of the horse.

Its really quite simple, when you first set up the camera you pick MP4 or MOV and that's it, you never touch it again (at least that's the way I work). I set up mine to shoot MOV and typically shoot 4K30FPS and 4K60FPS. I never switch back to MP4 again. I do wish it had a codec filter like I've seen for the S1H where you can filter out frame rates and speeds you will never use. All I want to see in the codec options is 4K60FPS 4:2:2 10bit, 4K30FPS 4:2:2 10bit,  and in case I'm shooting something longer than 30min I'll need 4K30FPS 4:2:0. 

 

As far as VFR, I never use it, basically the camera adds the extra frames in camera and in post if you play it back on a slower timeline it will be that much slower than the timeline. So if you shot something in VFR at 120FPS and place it right from the camera onto a 30FPS timeline it would play 4x slower. To get it to play at 30FPS you'd have to speed it up by 400%. I'm not a fan of the feature, most of the times it seems like its lousy quality and only available in 1080P. 

They probably had to lower the bit rate to nearly unusable due to heat, this is a tiny body and VFR has to be problematic where heat is concerned.

 

Has anyone else noticed that the back screen seems to get blurry until you are recording video? I'm not sure if this is to save power or what, but after a few seconds if I don't push any buttons the screen seems a little blurry and out of focus. But as soon as I press record or half press to focus, the screen goes back to full resolution.

[Lux Shots]

1 hour ago, Mark Romero 2 said:

Thanks for the clarification.

I never owned a GH5, only Sony, so I am not entirely clear what Variable Frame Rates (VFR) is exactly. Does that mean you could pick some random non-standard frame rate (like, 73fps, for example) instead of the "standard" frame rates like 24p / 30p / 50p / 60p / 120p???

lamenting Out Loud: I am still a bit confused by the Panasonic way of (what appears to be) having to pick your container (mp4, mov) or your codec (havc, hevc) prior to picking your frame rate, resolution, and bit depth. Kind of seems like they are putting the cart in front of the horse.

So you saw the bit rate available with the S5, here are pictures of my S1H with all VFR modes shown and some of the frame rates available with it.

 

[herein2020]

I shot some quick test footage today just to test my workflow from end to end prior to a paying project. The S5 is so easy to grade, I haven't even read the official how to on properly exposing VLOG and I'm using a VLOG to Rec709 LUT that I don't even know where it came from so I'm sure I'm doing it all wrong. Also I really wanted to test lowlight and the dual gain ISO so I shot some night footage. Everything is hand held, I stuck to 29.97 to test the IBIS, also I was using the kit lens so I needed every bit of shutter speed I could get.  The picture at 4000 ISO was noisier than I thought it would be considering it has dual ISO.

 

Also, I edited the video on a 1080P timeline then upscaled it to 2K which is how I usually do it so that I can recompose and crop in 4K.

 

[Mark Romero 2]

2 hours ago, Lux Shots said:

So you saw the bit rate available with the S5, here are pictures of my S1H with all VFR modes shown and some of the frame rates available with it.

Thank you!!!

[MrSMW]

9 hours ago, Mark Romero 2 said:

Did you have supplemental lighting for the interior??? Was the overhead lighting flourescent tubes??? If so, would expected it to be green. If anything, it kind of looks like slightly magenta (which happens with panasonic skin tones anyway, as far as I can tell).

I took my Falconeyes7 (stupid name) LED but did not use it once.

Otherwise 5 or 6 overhead strip lights and natural light through that doorway only.

Auto iso and auto WB.

I do need to calibrate my monitor actually as my old system no longer works so it could be slightly off.

[MrSMW]

Lightly graded and branding added.

(James Miller creative LUT)

 

[herein2020]

On 10/7/2020 at 7:12 PM, ntblowz said:

Quick Vlog test during lunch break

 

 

I tried that LUT, I didn't like it, I don't know why the manufacturers LUTS are usually not very good. Obviously it is all subjective, but I think the maker's LUTS are always based on perfect exposure and proper lighting. Any run and gun shooter knows that those conditions are rare to never so the 3rd party LUTs when done properly, look better to me.

 

I think I have found the perfect VLOG to Rec.709  LUT for my uses. This is a free LUT from Ground Control. For me, the VLOG to Rec709 LUT is always the most important since it lays the foundation for the color grade and it is what's needed to match it to other cameras. After that, I make slight adjustments to exposure if needed for each clip, then overlay an adjustment clip with a creative grade over the whole project. Below is the link to the Ground Control LUT, I went back and tested it on my Street Video test project and it added a little more contrast without crushing the blacks so the clips look like they have more DR.  It also didn't completely crush the lows like the Panasonic Varicam LUTS did (Nicest 709 LUT and Aggressive 709 LUT from Panasonic).

 

The main thing I look for in a Rec.709 LUT is one that isn't too hard to expose for (the Leeming LUT for example always seemed so difficult to properly expose for with the GH5) and one that results in the best starting point for the color grade across a wide variety of scenes.

 

Ground Control VLOG to Rec.709 Free LUT

https://groundcontrolcolor.com/products/free-sony-v-log-to-rec-709-lut

 

 

Here is an example of the 3 different LUTS with the exact same scene and no other changes. I was probably a little under exposed for this scene because I was trying to protect the sky....the GC LUT nicely kept the sky and brought up the lows.

 

 

[herein2020]

It would not let me edit my post...here is an updated picture with the ungraded VLOG as well.

 

 

[Mark Romero 2]

23 minutes ago, herein2020 said:

Here is an example of the 3 different LUTS with the exact same scene and no other changes. I was probably a little under exposed for this scene because I was trying to protect the sky....the GC LUT nicely kept the sky and brought up the lows.

Thanks for the link to the ground control LUT. I like it. Not too contrasty and plenty of saturation in the greens. Looks like the tint is going from magenta toward greens (twilight normally has a lot of magenta in it... I do a lot of twilight photography and I am always having to reduce tint to around -10 to -20 in Lightroom when shooting RAW)

[herein2020]

3 minutes ago, Mark Romero 2 said:

Thanks for the link to the ground control LUT. I like it. Not too contrasty and plenty of saturation in the greens. Looks like the tint is going from magenta toward greens (twilight normally has a lot of magenta in it... I do a lot of twilight photography and I am always having to reduce tint to around -10 to -20 in Lightroom when shooting RAW)

Yes for the Rec709 LUT I don't want anything too strong to make it harder to match with the other cameras. The GC LUT seems to strike a nice balanced starting point for a more aggressive grade if desired. The 10 bit out of this camera is fantastic. I never shot 10 bit in the GH5 because I was typically shooting at 60FPS, it definitely lets you push it around more, that and of course the DR of the sensor. 

[herein2020]

As I have used the S5 more, I have discovered a few more things that I like and dislike:

THE GOOD

 -  BASE / RANGE Zebras -  There is a  pretty cool feature in the S5 which is the BASE/RANGE option which lets you set a zebra pattern based on  F stop which maps to a VLOG percentage. So from now on when exposing for people with no gray card I'm going to turn that one on until there are zebras on the people's faces which means they are properly exposed. 

 

- Vertical Video - I found by accident that the S5 even does vertical video. So if you are shooting something that you only plan on showing on Instagram...something like a quick BTS for a shoot, you can film it vertically and it will play full screen on Instagram.

 

-Gimbal Setup - I combined the S5 with the Canon EF 24mm F2.8 and I now have a smaller lighter gimbal setup than I did with the GH5 and the lens itself cost less than my Voigtlander manual lenses. The downside is the manual focus ring doesn't feel anywhere near as good as it did on the Voitlanders.

 

THE BAD

- Checking Focus While Recording - it is not possible to zoom in while recording to check focus. This isn't a big deal for b-roll and gimbal work, but its definitely not a good thing when doing interview work or long form recordings such as for long events.  I read that due to the fundamental design of their processing pipeline it is impossible to do without burning the action into the video being recorded; so it sounds like to me there is no way to fix this with firmware.

- Lenses - This is turning into a bigger problem than I thought. I have the L mount to EF mount adapter but it does not support continuous AF. To get continuous AF you need to buy native glass...which of course is very expensive and limited.  So if I truly want to consider this camera to be both a 5DIV replacement as well as a GH5 replacement I'll need to invest in L mount lenses since I need Continuous AF for photography. 

- Lens Behavior With Adapter - With the Sigma adapter different EF lenses behave differently. With a Sigma EF lens and with some of the Canon lenses the punch in to check focus works automatically when you turn the focus ring. With some of the Canon lenses you have to manually push the zoom button. Also, the focus throw distance and speed settings only work with native L mount glass.

 

CONCLUSION

The camera is still worth every penny to me, but as usual when it comes to using adapters there will be tradeoffs. For photography no Continuous AF is a big deal when trying to film moving objects and for video no punch in to check focus while recording is a big deal, you could use an external monitor but then you are dealing with the mini HDMI port, more gear to carry, more batteries, etc.

[MrSMW]

Just used mine this week on another commercial hybrid capture project and it was superb in all regards.

One minor niggle and that is when switching from stills to video or back, it takes a few seconds to set itself up.

Another is write speed is a little slow at times, ie, switch to video following a few stills and there's a few extra seconds there whilst it's writing.

Nothing that's deal-breaking to me, just niggles I have become aware of and need to work around.

@herein2020 Yes, everything I have read points to Sigma lenses being best on the Sigma camera, Leica on Leicas and Panasonic on Panasonic.

The first of the f1.8 primes, the 85mm is due in Nov and the rest of the primes some time 'soon' and I guess the next best option is the native 24-70 f2.8, but it's a bit of an investment.

I'm making do with the 20-60 until then (and it's pretty superb in it's own right, never mind at £200 which is what it cost in the deal purchase price) until those primes arrive.

I was looking at a pair of Nikon Z6ii's for my hybrid wedding work for when that starts again (hopefully) in April, but now that Nikon have blown it for me and are passing into history, I'm really looking forward to those primes as 3x S5's are looking like my next 3 years future.

[herein2020]

43 minutes ago, MrSMW said:

Just used mine this week on another commercial hybrid capture project and it was superb in all regards.

One minor niggle and that is when switching from stills to video or back, it takes a few seconds to set itself up.

Another is write speed is a little slow at times, ie, switch to video following a few stills and there's a few extra seconds there whilst it's writing.

Nothing that's deal-breaking to me, just niggles I have become aware of and need to work around.

@herein2020 Yes, everything I have read points to Sigma lenses being best on the Sigma camera, Leica on Leicas and Panasonic on Panasonic.

The first of the f1.8 primes, the 85mm is due in Nov and the rest of the primes some time 'soon' and I guess the next best option is the native 24-70 f2.8, but it's a bit of an investment.

I'm making do with the 20-60 until then (and it's pretty superb in it's own right, never mind at £200 which is what it cost in the deal purchase price) until those primes arrive.

I was looking at a pair of Nikon Z6ii's for my hybrid wedding work for when that starts again (hopefully) in April, but now that Nikon have blown it for me and are passing into history, I'm really looking forward to those primes as 3x S5's are looking like my next 3 years future.

Yes I'm reaching the same conclusion...so much for an "alliance" it seems like Sigmas on the Panasonics are worse than Sigmas on the Canons.

The behavior that you describe switching from stills to video is interesting; I don't have that at all, it is instant for me. The only way to know it changed is some things on the display change. It does seem to freeze a bit when I hit the playback button but that's it.

Also, I haven't observed any writing delay, what memory cards are you using? Mine were formatted in the camera and they are the Sandisk Extreme PRO 170MB/s class 10 256GB cards.

I'm hesitant to buy any L lenses, that would conflict with my C200 lens mount and I would be back to two systems. I'm hoping the free 45mm lens offer was not a complete bait and switch and that it actually shows up in the mail one day. If so then I'll probably use that and the kit lens for all photography work if I need continuous AF and EF lenses for all other video and photography scenarios.

I also discovered yet another really cool feature in the camera and something I've been wanting for awhile: aspect guides. Instagram requires a 4:5 aspect ratio to post without the having to crop or have black bars, and the S5 actually lets you add a 4:5 guide to the screen. No more guessing how much crop space to leave. This little camera continues to amaze me.

[MrSMW]

I should explain my hybrid use as maybe it will be explain my ‘delay’...

I have:

C1 set for stills

C2 set for indoor video, shutter priority 1/100, auto aperture (but of course it goes for the lowest as a result as intended), plus auto ISO which is where the exposure in this case is mostly controlled.

C3 set for outdoor video, AP, auto shutter, auto ISO and because I do not use an ND or give a flying fig for the 180 degree shutter rule, don’t care if my shutter speed is in the thousandths as it usually is and a exposure here is mostly controlled by shutter speed as intended.

Why no ND you crazy mofo?

Hybrid use/stills as in many scenarios where it might be fine for video, but not for the stills plus I’ve never noticed anything negative by ignoring the 180 degree rule. I never go below  1/100 though for the slow mo.

I only shoot 4K 50p as I never know which bit of footage I may wish to slow but I slow a lot of it.

I conclude that the delay that I am experiencing is the camera switching from full frame to cropped mode and back?

Probably not how most work but I do what works for me and if it doesn’t fit within the rules...well so what!

I shot another job today, hybrid and was mostly testing the IBIS and had it in AF most of the time unless it was particularly tricky. I found the tracking AF option pretty sticky unless the subject went completely out of frame, otherwise, very promising. Need to review the footage though...

But ditto @herein2020 loving the camera so far and so far, not missing the XT3...and I loved that camera.

[elgabogomez]

Regarding the 180 degree rule... I honestly think it’s best used on 24, 25, 30 frames footage as it gives it the “illusion of movement/blur” that works in our collective memory (and at 30 the motion is already so fluid that it matters less). But on higher frame rates you are already messing with reality and time so if the blur is not there is a lot less objectionable. If you are not slowing down 50 or 60 frames, the motion is already hyper-real so it’s a different aesthetic in itself and the 180 rule can be thrown out the window.

[herein2020]

@MrSMW @elgabogomez I stick to the 180 degree rule most of the time especially outdoors. To my eyes if you are filming pretty much anything with a lot of motion in the image it looks almost like the image is stuttering when the shutter speed is too high. 

 

Where I do ignore it however is on the opposite end. With the GH5 I did everything possible to not go over ISO 1600...so if the lens was wide open and it still wasn't enough light I would try dropping the shutter speed to match the frame rate to get a tiny bit more light before having to increase the ISO. This trick worked for me quite a few times.  I also ignore it for drone work. With the wide lenses of the drones and high up in the air nothing is moving fast enough to make it obvious that the motion blur does not match.

On 10/15/2020 at 12:13 PM, MrSMW said:

 

I conclude that the delay that I am experiencing is the camera switching from full frame to cropped mode and back?

But ditto @herein2020 loving the camera so far and so far, not missing the XT3...and I loved that camera.

Maybe the delay is switching between the C modes. When I switch from Photography to Video even if the video frame rate is set to 60FPS there is no delay. I don't use the C modes though. Or it could be one of the other settings that causes a delay like auto ISO or auto shutter. All of my settings for both Photo and Video are manual so maybe with auto it calculates the proper values prior to showing you the new setup.

[MrSMW]

I get away with it because I am shooting very slow paced stuff in the first place and then slowing it in post by 50%.
 

I should add I DO use a variable ND and fixed 1/100th when shooting 50p purely video and it’s for hybrid I don’t as I am constantly flicking back and forth hundreds of times over the course of a day.

[Mark Romero 2]

On 10/15/2020 at 8:40 AM, herein2020 said:

It does seem to freeze a bit when I hit the playback button but that's it.

Well, that is what I experience with my S1, so I assume that is normal behavior. But don't quote me on that.