Panasonic S5 User Experience

[Video Hummus]

I think it’s safe to say with modern LongGOP implementations the image quality between it and ALL-I is insignificant.

If your videos in the end are exported to YouTube, Vimeo, or DVD disk your workflow funnels through a LongGOP encoder in the end.

So image quality with respect to LongGOP vs ALL-I isn’t very important.

ALL-I main advantage is in the amount of work your decoder has to do to playback, slice, change colors while your editing it.

With all that being said, and with storage being relatively cheap, I prefer ALL-I and only shoot LongGOP when I need to fit more on a card.

[kye]

9 hours ago, PannySVHS said:

150 Mbps Long-GOP 10bit, my friend! 🙂 Once you shot the S1/S5 in Vlog, you will feel shocked, how good it is.

The 10bit Long-GOP is an exellent codec. Scary, how good it is! Would be fun to be able to test it on a real cinema size screen, sometthing like 30 feet wide.

But the 10bit 200Mpbs HD on the GH5 is beautiful, the 100Mpbs also.

I used to shoot 150Mbps Log-GOP 4K, and really liked its texture, which I found to be quite analog.  But when I compared the IQ to the 200Mbps 1080p ALL-I mode and learned more about IQ in general, I realised that the difference wasn't that much.

....then when I realised I can shoot 200Mbps 10-bit 422 ALL-I 1080p in both 24p as well as 60p, I saw an enormous opportunity to be able to match the 60p clips I shoot to the 24p clips I shoot.  Getting 10-bit 422 ALL-I 60p is a pretty rare thing, even in the latest cameras.

....then when I realised I can edit the 200Mbps 1080p from my archive spinning disks without having to render proxies, well, game over!

5 hours ago, TomTheDP said:

I don't think youtube compression is helping that video either. 

Nah, YT compression shouldn't be blamed.  Go watch the Potatojet vlog where he buys the Alexa - he's vlogging the whole thing when they take the Alexa out and get a shot of the train and as soon as they cut from his vlogging camera to the Alexa the image just goes from 4/10 to 10/10 instantly.

Then watch that transition in YT 1080p.  Then in YT 720p.  Then 480p.  Then 360p.  

You will see that the YT compression does not erase the magic of the Alexa colour science and DR.  I switched to 1080p partly because I realised that what matters in an image isn't resolution, it's DR, CS, etc etc.

5 hours ago, TomTheDP said:

I have not seen a difference in 150mbps Long gop vs All-I 400mbps. Aside from easy of editing. Would be an interesting thing to test. 

The S1 and S5 will have an edge on the GH5 with internal 10 bit H265 4k 60p, while the GH5 only does 8 bit internally. For those who use 60p a lot.

I feel like Panasonic will not add ALL-I to the S1 as its really the only thing separating it from the S1H besides the OLPF

I compared them, and I can say there's a HUGE difference between 150Mbps and 400Mbps.  The cost of the SD card!!

The lack of 10-bit internal 60p is only a problem for those that still think that 4K is worth the effort.  

A good comparison to make is 10-bit H265 4k 60p vs the 1080p 10-bit 422 ALL-I 60p mode.  I think the difference would be absolutely enormous, in terms of editing computer, and basically negligible in terms of image quality.
I mean this sincerely too, actually do some testing where you take the 1080p footage and apply various types of sharpening and processing to it to try and match the 4K.  Of course, you have to do these comparisons on a timeline where both the 1080p and 4K have been graded, Glow and grain added, and the video compressed to its final delivery format.

I have spent the last few months taking screen-grabs of my 4K display playing TV shows and movies (set a hotkey for screen-grab and it only takes a second) and you end up with a library of reference stills.  In analysing that I have discovered that the actual sharpness of content is very low, partly because of the 180 shutter (I try and get frames where there is as little motion as possible) and partly because of the streaming compression.
The images look glorious, being that they're from some of the best artists in the business, but 12MP RAW stills they are NOT.

Before spending many thousands to get a camera that can do 10-bit 4K 60, and thousands more to edit 10-bit h265 clips, actually confirm that the difference is noticeable to the people watching your footage.

If you're making corporate videos or whatever then sure, maybe the client wants something that looks super modern (and maaaaaaaybe they can tell the difference between 4K and a 1080p sharpened a little and upressed to 4K).   But if you're trying for a theatrical aesthetic, or will be delivering via YT, then actually do comparisons instead of just buying into the hype.

4K is more of a brand name or status symbol than it is a resolution these days.

3 hours ago, SteveV4D said:

There is no profit in making the S5 so good, no one wishes to buy the S1H. 

Yes and no.

If I was upgrading from the GH5 and wanted the ALL-I modes, then maybe I get the S1H instead of the S5.  But maybe I realise that I can get the A7S3 for the same price as the S1H and maybe I go with that instead.  Or maybe I can't afford it and I just don't upgrade.

The S5 isn't only competing with the S1H, it's competing with the S1H's competitors, and other options too.  By pushing people to re-buy all their lenses then that's a point where your ecosystem has to remain attractive.

[TomTheDP]

5 hours ago, kye said:

Nah, YT compression shouldn't be blamed.  Go watch the Potatojet vlog where he buys the Alexa - he's vlogging the whole thing when they take the Alexa out and get a shot of the train and as soon as they cut from his vlogging camera to the Alexa the image just goes from 4/10 to 10/10 instantly.

Then watch that transition in YT 1080p.  Then in YT 720p.  Then 480p.  Then 360p.  

You will see that the YT compression does not erase the magic of the Alexa colour science and DR.  I switched to 1080p partly because I realised that what matters in an image isn't resolution, it's DR, CS, etc etc.

I compared them, and I can say there's a HUGE difference between 150Mbps and 400Mbps.  The cost of the SD card!!

The lack of 10-bit internal 60p is only a problem for those that still think that 4K is worth the effort.  

A good comparison to make is 10-bit H265 4k 60p vs the 1080p 10-bit 422 ALL-I 60p mode.  I think the difference would be absolutely enormous, in terms of editing computer, and basically negligible in terms of image quality.
I mean this sincerely too, actually do some testing where you take the 1080p footage and apply various types of sharpening and processing to it to try and match the 4K.  Of course, you have to do these comparisons on a timeline where both the 1080p and 4K have been graded, Glow and grain added, and the video compressed to its final delivery format.

I have spent the last few months taking screen-grabs of my 4K display playing TV shows and movies (set a hotkey for screen-grab and it only takes a second) and you end up with a library of reference stills.  In analysing that I have discovered that the actual sharpness of content is very low, partly because of the 180 shutter (I try and get frames where there is as little motion as possible) and partly because of the streaming compression.
The images look glorious, being that they're from some of the best artists in the business, but 12MP RAW stills they are NOT.

Before spending many thousands to get a camera that can do 10-bit 4K 60, and thousands more to edit 10-bit h265 clips, actually confirm that the difference is noticeable to the people watching your footage.

If you're making corporate videos or whatever then sure, maybe the client wants something that looks super modern (and maaaaaaaybe they can tell the difference between 4K and a 1080p sharpened a little and upressed to 4K).   But if you're trying for a theatrical aesthetic, or will be delivering via YT, then actually do comparisons instead of just buying into the hype.

4K is more of a brand name or status symbol than it is a resolution these days.

Yeah unfortunately its not uncommon for clients to request 4k. A job I worked on recently the client even requested 6k, though he was turned down as 6k on the Canon C500 MK2 is only in RAW and its simply wasn't feasible storage wise. Though there are certainly a good number of projects that only require HD. ALL-I is nice for editing without a doubt, though transcoding isn't too big of a deal. Its one of my favorite things about the Z-cam, I can record prores in camera at any frame rate. Really wish Pana would get a prores license. I am considering an Atomos Ninja but again the internal recording is so good its hard to justify it. But yeah storage......  2.8k in prores HQ on the Z-cam is becoming my go to. 

In terms of youtube compression it doesn't love shadows, which there were many in that video. I am pretty sure in the Potatojet video his vlogging camera was a Canon M50 or something of the like, probably shooting on auto. So really not a fair comparison against an Alexa. His subject matter was a little more interesting IMHO than the video I posted. No doubt the image on an Alexa is superior to anything coming from any mirrorless or cheap "cine" cams. A Panasonic S1 or Pocket 6k with Sage's Alexa LUT is really quite something though. I've oddly become very attached to small form factor cameras. Well I guess there is nothing odd about it, who wouldn't like them. 
 

[herein2020]

5 hours ago, kye said:

Before spending many thousands to get a camera that can do 10-bit 4K 60, and thousands more to edit 10-bit h265 clips, actually confirm that the difference is noticeable to the people watching your footage.

A good comparison to make is 10-bit H265 4k 60p vs the 1080p 10-bit 422 ALL-I 60p mode.  I think the difference would be absolutely enormous, in terms of editing computer, and basically negligible in terms of image quality.

For me personally the difference actually is absolutely worth it. The ability to crop in when shooting 4K and editing on a 1080P timeline simply cannot be understated; its like having a complete second set of lenses in your bag; but without the lenses. And not even just regular lenses but zoom lenses since you can stop the crop at any point in between when you have the framing where you want it. I think if I specialized in one specific area of video and was able to completely optimize my kit for that type of work then 4K would not be as important to me; but when you shoot literally anything that comes along you have to be prepared for events where you don't have a long enough lens, multi-cam looks when you only have a single camera, and 60FPS for when the talent simply will not slow down enough to properly frame the shot.

As far as editing without ALL-I, I did make the choice to simply keep throwing HW at the problem until it fixed itself. It was certainly more expensive than simply buying more storage, but for me it was worth it especially now when I can use what I consider the perfect camera for me (the S5) and edit anything the camera can record without dealing with proxies or lag.

Another reason why I am adverse to anything that increases my storage requirements is because I never change memory cards at a shoot. My current setup lets me shoot every type of event that I encounter without ever changing memory cards. I know it sounds minor, but little things like that are important to me when things get crazy hectic. When you are shooting with up to 5 completely different cameras each with a specific purpose as a OMB for a single shoot little things like that get pretty important.  That's also why I stick with the EF mount adapter even though I wish I had CAF in the S5....another lens type would add more complexity to my setup.

So you say...just get bigger memory cards....its not that easy either; for one thing memory cards fast enough to handle 400Mbs sustained write speeds typically aren't as large as regular cards and my entire kit stops at 256GB cards because they don't make CF cards any bigger than that and my 5DIV requires a CF card.

 

 

[herein2020]

9 minutes ago, TomTheDP said:

In terms of youtube compression it doesn't love shadows, which there were many in that video. 

I have found YouTube hates timelapses and water even more than shadows. Anything where nearly every frame changes from frame to frame is a disaster on YouTube unless you are a celebrity on an upper tier. I have had to go back and just completely remove a timelapse because I couldn't get it to work on YouTube; and living in FL you are almost always filming something with water; so even there I've had to edit out certain water scenes just because of YouTube.

[SteveV4D]

9 hours ago, kye said:

 

Yes and no.

If I was upgrading from the GH5 and wanted the ALL-I modes, then maybe I get the S1H instead of the S5.  But maybe I realise that I can get the A7S3  go with that instead.  

The S5 isn't only competing with the S1H, it's competing with the S1H's competitors, and other options too.  By pushing people to re-buy all their lenses then that's a point where your ecosystem has to remain attractive.

Thats not an argument to suggest Panasonic are remiss in not adding ALL-I, both now and in the future. The A7sIII for example is limited to 12mp, making it a less attractive alternative if shooting photos is your thing, compared to the S5.

Of course, jumping on a new lens system makes brand loyalty less relevant if you own a GH5 like I do, and why I have delayed going fullframe.  But its not just the lack of ALL-I on the S5 that's the issue.  In fact whats putting me off the most from upgrading to Panasonic fullframe is the poor AF.  Its that which makes the Sony and Canon more attractive despite their own limitations.  If I am to jump to a new fullframe system, I want one that meets my needs the most.  So far no manufacturer has delivered on that to make the jump cost effective for me. Especially as I don't shoot a lot of photo work to justify the cost on its own merit.

[SteveV4D]

Limiting yourself to 1080p because of YouTube is a bit like UK programme makers in the 60s and early 70s not making programmes in colour because the vast majority of TVs in the UK were black and white.  Besides there is always Vimeo. 😉

[SteveV4D]

9 hours ago, kye said:

 

The images look glorious, being that they're from some of the best artists in the business, but 12MP RAW stills they are NOT.

 

Isn't 4K video closer to 8MP in resolution?  

[Mark Romero 2]

In defense of 4K...

Reduced apparent noise when down-res to 1080p in post

Ability to reframe on a 1080p timeiline without losing image quality

Some cameras just have really bad 1080p (a lot of the 2nd gen Sony e mount cameras, like a6300 and a6500).

On the other hand, I think we are all well aware of the drawbacks of 4K, such as file size / storage requirements, playback difficulties, often worse rolling shutter, often more restricted frame rates, potential quicker overheating...

[herein2020]

3 hours ago, Mark Romero 2 said:

In defense of 4K...

Reduced apparent noise when down-res to 1080p in post

Ability to reframe on a 1080p timeiline without losing image quality

Some cameras just have really bad 1080p (a lot of the 2nd gen Sony e mount cameras, like a6300 and a6500).

On the other hand, I think we are all well aware of the drawbacks of 4K, such as file size / storage requirements, playback difficulties, often worse rolling shutter, often more restricted frame rates, potential quicker overheating...

The crop on the S5 really irked me for a recent shoot. I really needed 4K 60FPS but the crop was making my 50mm too long to frame certain shots and I didn't have time to switch lenses.  So you can add crop factor for many cameras to that list. Typically the 24mm is fine and after the crop its around 38mm but I needed the faster 50mm lens and it was perfect until the crop factor kicked in.

 

12 hours ago, SteveV4D said:

Thats not an argument to suggest Panasonic are remiss in not adding ALL-I, both now and in the future. The A7sIII for example is limited to 12mp, making it a less attractive alternative if shooting photos is your thing, compared to the S5.

Of course, jumping on a new lens system makes brand loyalty less relevant if you own a GH5 like I do, and why I have delayed going fullframe.  But its not just the lack of ALL-I on the S5 that's the issue.  In fact whats putting me off the most from upgrading to Panasonic fullframe is the poor AF.  Its that which makes the Sony and Canon more attractive despite their own limitations.  If I am to jump to a new fullframe system, I want one that meets my needs the most.  So far no manufacturer has delivered on that to make the jump cost effective for me. Especially as I don't shoot a lot of photo work to justify the cost on its own merit.

The AF was why I didn't get the S1 when it came out not to mention the lens mount. What really sold me on the S5 was the EF adapter more so than anything else which meant I just needed to buy the body since I have plenty of EF glass.  Even now though I miss my Voigtlander lenses and I still don't have a solution for real estate videos where I need a wide angle lens and need to shoot in 60FPS but the S5 has a crop at 60FPS. 

The AF is also why I'm not trying too hard to test the S5 for photography and the AF is also why I doubt I will get a second S5.  I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place; do I try native lenses with the S5 to see if AF works for me and if it does do I go and buy tons of new expensive glass for a camera that will never have great AF, or do I just stick with the EF mount and sacrifice CAF. 

The image out of the S5 and working with VLOG is incredible so the S5 checks enough boxes for me that I have decided to sacrifice AF, but it doesn't mean I am willing to go all in. If Panasonic had Canon's AF I would have an S1R for photography and two S5's right now along with all native glass.

If I were in your shoes with the GH5 and had no EF glass I wouldn't have bought the S5 either. I do think though if you were to ever rent or use an S5 or S1 especially in high DR or low light scenarios you might be convinced; the image quality really is that much better than the GH5. I used to hate the highlight roll off performance of the GH5 and the color loss at higher ISO's.

[kye]

21 hours ago, TomTheDP said:

Yeah unfortunately its not uncommon for clients to request 4k. A job I worked on recently the client even requested 6k, though he was turned down as 6k on the Canon C500 MK2 is only in RAW and its simply wasn't feasible storage wise. Though there are certainly a good number of projects that only require HD. ALL-I is nice for editing without a doubt, though transcoding isn't too big of a deal. Its one of my favorite things about the Z-cam, I can record prores in camera at any frame rate. Really wish Pana would get a prores license. I am considering an Atomos Ninja but again the internal recording is so good its hard to justify it. But yeah storage......  2.8k in prores HQ on the Z-cam is becoming my go to. 

In terms of youtube compression it doesn't love shadows, which there were many in that video. I am pretty sure in the Potatojet video his vlogging camera was a Canon M50 or something of the like, probably shooting on auto. So really not a fair comparison against an Alexa. His subject matter was a little more interesting IMHO than the video I posted. No doubt the image on an Alexa is superior to anything coming from any mirrorless or cheap "cine" cams. A Panasonic S1 or Pocket 6k with Sage's Alexa LUT is really quite something though. I've oddly become very attached to small form factor cameras. Well I guess there is nothing odd about it, who wouldn't like them. 
 

I just think it's sad that clients are asking for 4K.  I think in reality most of them couldn't tell if you shot 1080 and then just sharpened it and then exported at 4K, but obviously doing that on commercial jobs isn't a good move.

It's kind of funny that clients who want an ad for their business to put on social, or a promo for their whatever to put on TV in-stores want 4K, when 8 and 9-figure Hollywood films are being delivered at 2K.  Do they think more resolution is better?  If so, why do they think they need more resolution than a Hollywood film that will be projected on cinema screens a couple of stories tall?  If they don't think more resolution is better then why ask for it?

It just doesn't make any logical sense.

In terms of Potatojet and the Alexa footage - I wasn't comparing the Alexa to the M50 outright (it might have sounded like that though) I was more saying about how the Alexa just looks spectacular and it's really obvious.  Watch that footage at any resolution you like on YT and you'll see that the resolution/compression settings of YT don't take away that magic.

The Magic of Alexa isn't in the resolution.  That's why having cameras without the magic of the Alexa and adding resolution is kind of stupid - they're fixing the part of the camera that wasn't broken.

21 hours ago, herein2020 said:

For me personally the difference actually is absolutely worth it. The ability to crop in when shooting 4K and editing on a 1080P timeline simply cannot be understated; its like having a complete second set of lenses in your bag; but without the lenses. And not even just regular lenses but zoom lenses since you can stop the crop at any point in between when you have the framing where you want it. I think if I specialized in one specific area of video and was able to completely optimize my kit for that type of work then 4K would not be as important to me; but when you shoot literally anything that comes along you have to be prepared for events where you don't have a long enough lens, multi-cam looks when you only have a single camera, and 60FPS for when the talent simply will not slow down enough to properly frame the shot.

As far as editing without ALL-I, I did make the choice to simply keep throwing HW at the problem until it fixed itself. It was certainly more expensive than simply buying more storage, but for me it was worth it especially now when I can use what I consider the perfect camera for me (the S5) and edit anything the camera can record without dealing with proxies or lag.

Another reason why I am adverse to anything that increases my storage requirements is because I never change memory cards at a shoot. My current setup lets me shoot every type of event that I encounter without ever changing memory cards. I know it sounds minor, but little things like that are important to me when things get crazy hectic. When you are shooting with up to 5 completely different cameras each with a specific purpose as a OMB for a single shoot little things like that get pretty important.  That's also why I stick with the EF mount adapter even though I wish I had CAF in the S5....another lens type would add more complexity to my setup.

So you say...just get bigger memory cards....its not that easy either; for one thing memory cards fast enough to handle 400Mbs sustained write speeds typically aren't as large as regular cards and my entire kit stops at 256GB cards because they don't make CF cards any bigger than that and my 5DIV requires a CF card.

Cropping heavily in post is an argument that seems to make sense, but really has its limits.

Have you done a comparison between cropping into 150Mbps 4K and 200Mbps 1080p?  or are you just blindly assuming that more is better?

You seem to be latching onto the comparison between Long-GOP and ALL-I as the comparison between 150Mbps 4K and 400Mbps 4K, but that's not the comparison I'm making.  I'm comparing 150Mbps 4K and 200Mbps 1080p.  You're starting off with the assumption you need 4K, but until you've tried it you can't really comment with much certainty.

17 hours ago, SteveV4D said:

Thats not an argument to suggest Panasonic are remiss in not adding ALL-I, both now and in the future. The A7sIII for example is limited to 12mp, making it a less attractive alternative if shooting photos is your thing, compared to the S5.

Of course, jumping on a new lens system makes brand loyalty less relevant if you own a GH5 like I do, and why I have delayed going fullframe.  But its not just the lack of ALL-I on the S5 that's the issue.  In fact whats putting me off the most from upgrading to Panasonic fullframe is the poor AF.  Its that which makes the Sony and Canon more attractive despite their own limitations.  If I am to jump to a new fullframe system, I want one that meets my needs the most.  So far no manufacturer has delivered on that to make the jump cost effective for me. Especially as I don't shoot a lot of photo work to justify the cost on its own merit.

AF is a great point - so let me phrase it like this...  If you had ALL-I on the GH5 and then the S5 didn't have it, that would be an additional factor on top of the AF that would steer you towards a different brand.  One thing that really makes the GH5 stand out are the codecs.

17 hours ago, SteveV4D said:

Limiting yourself to 1080p because of YouTube is a bit like UK programme makers in the 60s and early 70s not making programmes in colour because the vast majority of TVs in the UK were black and white.  Besides there is always Vimeo. 😉

I didn't limit myself to 1080p.

I upgraded to ALL-I, upgraded from 150Mbps to 200bps, and upgraded to the resolution that many Hollywood films are shot in.

You wouldn't know it from these 4K fanboy discussions, but people that have budgets of hundreds of millions of dollars for a film, and who win awards for making glorious images actually choose <3K resolutions by choice.  Think about that for a second..   When they could have anything they want, they actively choose 2K.

Do you think there's a reason that they might do that?

17 hours ago, SteveV4D said:

Isn't 4K video closer to 8MP in resolution?  

4K video in the kind of codecs we're talking about is closer to 2MP in resolution, so why quibble about 8MP vs 12MP 🙂

7 hours ago, Mark Romero 2 said:

In defense of 4K...

Reduced apparent noise when down-res to 1080p in post

Ability to reframe on a 1080p timeiline without losing image quality

Some cameras just have really bad 1080p (a lot of the 2nd gen Sony e mount cameras, like a6300 and a6500).

On the other hand, I think we are all well aware of the drawbacks of 4K, such as file size / storage requirements, playback difficulties, often worse rolling shutter, often more restricted frame rates, potential quicker overheating...

I love 4K.  In fact, 4K is enough for me.  I shoot 5K.  and I shoot 5K RAW and then downsample it to 2K.

I just do it all in-camera.

In terms of reframing - try it for yourself.  I've done the tests and I realised that you can push the image much further than I thought.  You'll find me one these forums talking passionately about 4K and reframing, you'll find that I did the tests, and you'll find that I changed my mind.

4 hours ago, herein2020 said:

If I were in your shoes with the GH5 and had no EF glass I wouldn't have bought the S5 either. I do think though if you were to ever rent or use an S5 or S1 especially in high DR or low light scenarios you might be convinced; the image quality really is that much better than the GH5. I used to hate the highlight roll off performance of the GH5 and the color loss at higher ISO's.

I must admit the Panasonic colour science has gotten a lot better since the GH5, that's for sure.

It would just be great if they put the good codecs into the S5.  For me, the S5 isn't a GH5 replacement.

[MrSMW]

9 hours ago, herein2020 said:

I still don't have a solution for real estate videos where I need a wide angle lens and need to shoot in 60FPS but the S5 has a crop at 60FPS. 

Would the 20-60 not do it for you at the wide end or is ‘30mm’ not going to be wide enough?

It’s my wide angle lens but more for stills as a FF 20 than a cropped video 30.

9 hours ago, herein2020 said:

The AF is also why I'm not trying too hard to test the S5 for photography and the AF is also why I doubt I will get a second S5.

Have you really tried it for stills? This is the one area where the AF really is not an issue, - pretty fast and very accurate, even with tracking. OK it’s not a rapid fire sports photography tool but for any/everything else... 

[SteveV4D]

7 hours ago, kye said:

people that have budgets of hundreds of millions of dollars for a film, and who win awards for making glorious images actually choose <3K resolutions by choice.  Think about that for a second..   When they could have anything they want, they actively choose 2K.

Do you think there's a reason that they might do that?

 

Usually if it is effects heavy and it saves on cost and rendering time.  Also the Alexa didn't have a 4K model, the preferred choice for many filmakers.   And they weren't filming in 1080p, more 2.7K - a resolution choice sadly overlooked on hybrid cameras - it would be perhaps a better compromise between 1080p and 4K and been used as much as 4K if it had. 
Of course, these days, many Hollywood movies now choose to film in 6K now it is readily available; I assume they have a good reason for that too.  It always takes time for some to shift their way of doing things.  Hollywood is often at the mercy of the Cinema projection technology, which lags behind recording specs.  In comparison, Netflix has led the way with 4K, because they have total control over delivery to its audience.  They're not promoting 1080p.

Ultimately there's nothing wrong with delivering in 1080p, I do so myself.  I just capture in 4K for various good reasons.  Namely as 1080p is cropped on my camera of choice.  In fact, I shall be capturing in 6K once my work resumes (hopefully this year 🙏).  I have very good reasons for that too.  😉

7 hours ago, kye said:

AF is a great point - so let me phrase it like this...  If you had ALL-I on the GH5 and then the S5 didn't have it, that would be an additional factor on top of the AF that would steer you towards a different brand.  One thing that really makes the GH5 stand out are the codecs.

We have veered widely off the original point, which was that Panasonic would be foolish to add ALL-I to the S5, when it could compete with the S1H.  The S1H is the fullframe successor to the GH5 in the eyes of Panasonic I feel.  The S5 is the smaller budget versions, perhaps more akin to the G90 vs the GH5.

Quote

You wouldn't know it from these 4K fanboy discussions,

Labelling people fanboys for having a different opinion to yours is a bit of a low argument in my book.  Some of us have done our own tests and formed our own opinion on 4K and its practicalities and merits - doesn't make us fanboys.  😀

7 hours ago, kye said:

4K video in the kind of codecs we're talking about is closer to 2MP in resolution, so why quibble about 8MP vs 12MP 🙂

You really don't like being told you're wrong about something, do you.  😉😂😂

 

[Mark Romero 2]

14 hours ago, kye said:

In terms of reframing - try it for yourself.  I've done the tests and I realised that you can push the image much further than I thought.  You'll find me one these forums talking passionately about 4K and reframing, you'll find that I did the tests, and you'll find that I changed my mind.

I'll try again I guess.

I have used the 1080p 60fps 10-bit vlog out of my S1 and for some reason it just didn't seem particularly good - even with up-rez to 4K and without up-rez to 4K. Maybe operator error???

It wasn't bad mind you (certainly not as bad as Sony 1080p from my a6500 and previous a6300 and a6000), but it just was disappointing in a difficult-to-pinpoint way.

[herein2020]

14 hours ago, kye said:

Cropping heavily in post is an argument that seems to make sense, but really has its limits.

Have you done a comparison between cropping into 150Mbps 4K and 200Mbps 1080p?  or are you just blindly assuming that more is better?

You seem to be latching onto the comparison between Long-GOP and ALL-I as the comparison between 150Mbps 4K and 400Mbps 4K, but that's not the comparison I'm making.  I'm comparing 150Mbps 4K and 200Mbps 1080p.  You're starting off with the assumption you need 4K, but until you've tried it you can't really comment with much certainty.

I really don't focus on bitrates that much because to me higher bitrates simply mean less compression artifacts when moving from frame to frame which is also why I simply do not feel that ALL-I will add any noticeable quality to most video footage and is mainly an editing benefit. DVD bitrates are only 11 Mbps and even a Blu Ray disc's bitrate is only 40Mbps;  so for me pretty much anything the S5 has is good enough for anything I plan on shooting.

I'm not assuming that more is better....its a fact; you can losslessly crop up to 2X in 4K on a 1080P timeline, something that is not possible with 1080P regardless of the bitrate and yes I have seen 1080P footage on a 4K timeline and no it did not look as detailed to me.  I'll admit I don't remember the bitrate of the footage but it does not change the fact that it is not possibly to losslessly zoom 2x into footage when the pixels simply aren't there even when upscaling is involved. Full disclosure though; I have seen some videos where they mix upscaled 1080P footage with 4K footage to get the additional slow motion framerates and when its only for a few seconds it really was hard to tell, but to me that's an exception not an expectation.

 

10 hours ago, MrSMW said:

Would the 20-60 not do it for you at the wide end or is ‘30mm’ not going to be wide enough?

It’s my wide angle lens but more for stills as a FF 20 than a cropped video 30.

Have you really tried it for stills? This is the one area where the AF really is not an issue, - pretty fast and very accurate, even with tracking. OK it’s not a rapid fire sports photography tool but for any/everything else... 

For real estate video and photography you want a maximum of 16mm with 14mm or even 10mm being even better; as long as its not a fisheye lens. The 20-60 would not even be close both because its way too slow (Real Estate interiors are typically terribly lit), and not wide enough. The real estate problem is the only reason I have not sold my GH5 yet. Due to the 4K60FPS crop, I would need a 10mm rectilinear lens just to get back to 15mm. I thought my EF-S Canon 10mm-22mm would be perfect...but its the one APS-C lens that I have that doesn't work on the S5 even with the APS-C crop enabled. Rokinon makes a 10mm F2.8 but I haven't decided to try it yet.

Of course I could shoot in 30FPS, but I use speed ramping and for detail shots depending on the property I want to be able to slow down the footage. I am also thinking about just shooting in 1080P 60FPS, but I haven't shot anything in 1080P in years; going back to not being able to recompose a shot would be tough to accept.

I haven't tried it for stills because the only way it would replace my 5DIV would be if I were going to go all in and for me to go all in on the Panasonic system it needs better AF in video as well. 

[TomTheDP]

12 minutes ago, Mark Romero 2 said:

I'll try again I guess.

I have used the 1080p 60fps 10-bit vlog out of my S1 and for some reason it just didn't seem particularly good - even with up-rez to 4K and without up-rez to 4K. Maybe operator error???

It wasn't bad mind you (certainly not as bad as Sony 1080p from my a6500 and previous a6300 and a6000), but it just was disappointing in a difficult-to-pinpoint way.

1080p out of the GH5 is probably better than the S1. By better I mean it matches its 4k better. Obviously still behind the S1 in dynamic range and low light. I am very close to switching to MAC with the new M1's and utilizing the 12 bit Prores RAW out of the S1. 

[Mark Romero 2]

41 minutes ago, TomTheDP said:

1080p out of the GH5 is probably better than the S1. By better I mean it matches its 4k better. Obviously still behind the S1 in dynamic range and low light.

Thanks for the input. As an aside, I am still torn between getting a GH5 as a B cam to my S1, or getting another S1 (kind of put off by the weight), an S5 (kind of put off by the time limit for 10-bit recording and that won't have 6K internal). While GH5 appeals to me, then I have to deal with buying full frame lenses and m43 lenses, or speed boosters. Ughh...

 

44 minutes ago, TomTheDP said:

I am very close to switching to MAC with the new M1's and utilizing the 12 bit Prores RAW out of the S1. 

I am actually thinking of going in the opposite direction, and trying to avoid proprietary software as much as possible. Thinking of switching my main computer from Windows to Linux (Debian, or Mint) and using Free Open Source Software (FOSS) as much as possible. And using proxies in DNxHD instead of prores. While I am not a flat-earther or anything like that, I just kind of like to have freedom of choice where practical, I guess.

[TomTheDP]

40 minutes ago, Mark Romero 2 said:

Thanks for the input. As an aside, I am still torn between getting a GH5 as a B cam to my S1, or getting another S1 (kind of put off by the weight), an S5 (kind of put off by the time limit for 10-bit recording and that won't have 6K internal). While GH5 appeals to me, then I have to deal with buying full frame lenses and m43 lenses, or speed boosters. Ughh...

 

I am actually thinking of going in the opposite direction, and trying to avoid proprietary software as much as possible. Thinking of switching my main computer from Windows to Linux (Debian, or Mint) and using Free Open Source Software (FOSS) as much as possible. And using proxies in DNxHD instead of prores. While I am not a flat-earther or anything like that, I just kind of like to have freedom of choice where practical, I guess.

Makes sense though the performance on the M1 macs are just too good to pass up. Just got one for $850. I can probably sell my PC for over $1000 easily and it'll actually perform better than my PC at least for my applications. 

I dislike codecs that only work on certain systems too. I like the idea of RAW though. I prefer RAW on the S1 vs say the P6K as I can get 4K RAW off the S1 in S35 mode. While on the Pocket 6k I have to shoot in 6K or else crop in more. The 1.5X crop on the S1 is actually a wider FOV than the P6K. It seems the Mac M1's can smoothly edit 4k even with several adjustments applied. This will be huge for me. 

[MrSMW]

3 hours ago, herein2020 said:

For real estate video and photography you want a maximum of 16mm with 14mm or even 10mm being even better; as long as its not a fisheye lens.

Doh, I wrote that before the coffee had kicked in this morning and for some reason was thinking exteriors...and then later thought, don’t be so dumb man, you intend to use the 20mm wide end for your interior bride prep room shots and that’s only just wide enough for stills.

So indeed, you really are looking at a 10mm or similar or not shooting 4K 60P, or even not the S5 at all.

Maybe with all that Canon Glass, R6 is a better option?

[Mark Romero 2]

3 hours ago, TomTheDP said:

Makes sense though the performance on the M1 macs are just too good to pass up. Just got one for $850. I can probably sell my PC for over $1000 easily and it'll actually perform better than my PC at least for my applications. 

I dislike codecs that only work on certain systems too. I like the idea of RAW though. I prefer RAW on the S1 vs say the P6K as I can get 4K RAW off the S1 in S35 mode. While on the Pocket 6k I have to shoot in 6K or else crop in more. The 1.5X crop on the S1 is actually a wider FOV than the P6K. It seems the Mac M1's can smoothly edit 4k even with several adjustments applied. This will be huge for me. 

Thanks for the input.