Panasonic S5 User Experience

[kye]

@Mark Romero 2 @SteveV4D @herein2020

Good conversation, and I think it's actually clarified things for me.

I don't have any issue with people shooting 4K, or 6K, or freaking 12K if they really want, but I think the issue I have is that people do so without really knowing what choices they're making.  I'm speaking more broadly, and you guys may be well aware of the pros and cons, but many people reading this aren't posting or even logged in, so I'm conscious of those people, rather than just you guys 🙂

I think the issue is how we talk about these things.

People talk like 4K has no downsides.  When you bring them up, they get countered individually, and the net result seems to be that the arguments against 4K have valid counterarguments, but that's kind of a false impression.  
It's like....
"4K takes more processing power to edit" - "yeah, but modern computers are fine, so that's not enough reason to swap" ....  4K: 1 point, 1080p zero!
"4K lets you crop in post" - "1080 is pretty good though" - "but not as much as 4K, so that's not a reason to swap" ....  4K: 2 points, 1080p still zero!
"4K is what some clients ask for" - "that doesn't mean 4K is always the right choice" - "yeah but some do" ....  4K: 3 points, 1080p still zero!
etc.

It looks like 1080p scored zero points, but the problem with this logic is that it's just not true.  1080p won a few and came runner up in most of them.  
If the scores were a percentage rather than a winner/loser mentality then an overall score might be something like 4K 70% and 1080p 55%, but when you talk about 1080 people don't say "I've weighed up the pros and cons", they just look at you like you're suggesting they film with the lens cap on.

Unfortunately it creates a situation where new people don't understand there's a choice to be made, and that depending on what you value more, the winner can be flipped to 1080p without that much effort because it's actually a much closer argument than people think.

15 hours ago, SteveV4D said:

We have veered widely off the original point, which was that Panasonic would be foolish to add ALL-I to the S5, when it could compete with the S1H.  The S1H is the fullframe successor to the GH5 in the eyes of Panasonic I feel.  The S5 is the smaller budget versions, perhaps more akin to the G90 vs the GH5.

That makes sense and is very sad actually.

It means that Panasonic will have taken the video features of the GH5 and essentially doubled their price.  Also, they've smashed the S5 with the Canon Cripple Hammer in order to protect their own line of 'cine' cameras.

Panasonic used to be the underdog who gave what they could, rather than the big corporate who took all they could.  Assuming it's true, it's not a good look.

[Mark Romero 2]

I personally believe that one of the reasons / the main reason that the S5 doesn't have all-i is because it just can't handle it... maybe the processor is different, maybe it is just a heat dissipation issue. I mean, the S1H has a fan and weighs, like, 27 pounds for a reason.

Sure, the GH5 has All-I but the sensor is half the size of a full frame sensor, and with the S5, Panasonic has somehow managed to fit a full frame sensor in to a body that is slightly SMALLER than a GH5.

[herein2020]

6 minutes ago, Mark Romero 2 said:

I personally believe that one of the reasons / the main reason that the S5 doesn't have all-i is because it just can't handle it... maybe the processor is different, maybe it is just a heat dissipation issue. I mean, the S1H has a fan and weighs, like, 27 pounds for a reason.

Sure, the GH5 has All-I but the sensor is half the size of a full frame sensor, and with the S5, Panasonic has somehow managed to fit a full frame sensor in to a body that is slightly SMALLER than a GH5.

Exactly....you simply cannot have it both ways. Panasonic knew many users would not miss ALL-I and had to make some kind of tradeoff to get the body so small; also we are talking 10bit here not 8 bit or line skipping. The ONLY tradeoff that I wish they hadn't made was using a micro HDMI port instead of a full HDMI port which is funny because I never used the HDMI port on the GH5 anyway but knowing its not useable especially when it can output 5.9K raw is still a little annoying.

 

4 hours ago, MrSMW said:

Doh, I wrote that before the coffee had kicked in this morning and for some reason was thinking exteriors...and then later thought, don’t be so dumb man, you intend to use the 20mm wide end for your interior bride prep room shots and that’s only just wide enough for stills.

So indeed, you really are looking at a 10mm or similar or not shooting 4K 60P, or even not the S5 at all.

Maybe with all that Canon Glass, R6 is a better option?

 

I tried the R6, it was without a doubt the worst camera for me that I have ever held in my hands. There simply is no scenario where the R6 is the better option. Despite all of its other shortcomings. the simple fact that it does not do dual slot video recording and the level meter turns off when recording (level horizons are critical with real estate and wide angle lenses) those two factors alone make it a terrible RE video camera. Should I even mention the overheat timer.....? I can imagine a nightmare scenario where I am filming a big all day commercial real estate project and have to quit half way through because the camera has "overheated"....some of the properties I have filmed have AC problems or large outdoor areas in direct sunlight and are all day or multi-day shoots.

 

[kye]

1 hour ago, Mark Romero 2 said:

I personally believe that one of the reasons / the main reason that the S5 doesn't have all-i is because it just can't handle it... maybe the processor is different, maybe it is just a heat dissipation issue. I mean, the S1H has a fan and weighs, like, 27 pounds for a reason.

Sure, the GH5 has All-I but the sensor is half the size of a full frame sensor, and with the S5, Panasonic has somehow managed to fit a full frame sensor in to a body that is slightly SMALLER than a GH5.

I just did a little test with ffmpeg, and encoding the ALL-I was twice as fast as encoding the Long-GOP file.  So ALL-I should generate half the heat, so that's not it.

[TomTheDP]

1 hour ago, kye said:

I just did a little test with ffmpeg, and encoding the ALL-I was twice as fast as encoding the Long-GOP file.  So ALL-I should generate half the heat, so that's not it.

Yeah internal RAW recording shouldn't even be a problem, the sigma FP can do it. The less processing the better usually for heat management. Its the same reason computer's have a harder time handling Long GOP. Definitely a weird GIMP. I don't think the Pana S5 was in the Panasonic plan nor was basically giving the S1 an update that gives it almost every feature the S1H has. I think it was a response to how sales were going. 

[MrSMW]

5 hours ago, herein2020 said:

tried the R6, it was without a doubt the worst camera for me that I have ever held in my hands.

Oh. I owned a Canon lens once but that has been my extent of Canon use in 20 years as a pro. May have had a compact at some point though...

I suppose the native 16-35 won’t cut it either as it ends up being more like a 24mm at the wide end shooting 4K 60P.

It’s widely stated these days that there isn’t a bad camera or lens being made these days and that is probably largely accurate, but it seems all cameras are compromised in one way or another for most people.

For me with the S5, it is purely in the department of forward/backward AF tracking, but it still fits my needs better than anything else at any price point.

OK, so if Panny or Canon are going to be square pegs in round holes, Sony A7Siii then. Adapter, your Canon glass and boom?

I came so close to it being one of these the other week purely for video with a pair of whatever the rangefinderesque thing is, A7C or something...purely for stills and scrap the whole hybrid in one body approach.

But the cost killed it mainly for me and it offered no other advantages to me other than in the AF department.

It’s actually quite a tricky balance when you have very specific needs!

[SteveV4D]

11 hours ago, kye said:

 

It means that Panasonic will have taken the video features of the GH5 and essentially doubled their price.  Also, they've smashed the S5 with the Canon Cripple Hammer in order to protect their own line of 'cine' cameras.

They may have doubled the price, they've also doubled the sensor size.  You'd never get a fullframe GH5 at the same price.  Bare in mind I paid £400 more just for the GH5s, and that was MFT.

As for the S5, its not been that badly hit.  You're paying for that tech inside a smaller body.  And there's a lot there for the price, all things considered.  Theres also the S1 for a slightly higher price.  Canon are a little more ruthless in their cripple hammer.  At least the S5 and S1 are not programmed to shut down and cool for lengthy periods.  If not for the lack of AF, Panasonic would be head of the game in my book.  

[zerocool22]

I hope there will be a s5 update to decrease sharpness more. 

[kye]

22 minutes ago, SteveV4D said:

They may have doubled the price, they've also doubled the sensor size.  You'd never get a fullframe GH5 at the same price.  Bare in mind I paid £400 more just for the GH5s, and that was MFT.

As for the S5, its not been that badly hit.  You're paying for that tech inside a smaller body.  And there's a lot there for the price, all things considered.  Theres also the S1 for a slightly higher price.  Canon are a little more ruthless in their cripple hammer.  At least the S5 and S1 are not programmed to shut down and cool for lengthy periods.  If not for the lack of AF, Panasonic would be head of the game in my book.  

I guess we're getting into tricky territory here, but I have the rather unpopular opinion of only caring about the user experience and the image.  My passion for the size of the sensor is about the same as my passion for the number of letters in the part number of the audio processing chip - both have virtually no impact on the end result!

[herein2020]

9 hours ago, MrSMW said:

Oh. I owned a Canon lens once but that has been my extent of Canon use in 20 years as a pro. May have had a compact at some point though...

I suppose the native 16-35 won’t cut it either as it ends up being more like a 24mm at the wide end shooting 4K 60P.

It’s widely stated these days that there isn’t a bad camera or lens being made these days and that is probably largely accurate, but it seems all cameras are compromised in one way or another for most people.

For me with the S5, it is purely in the department of forward/backward AF tracking, but it still fits my needs better than anything else at any price point.

OK, so if Panny or Canon are going to be square pegs in round holes, Sony A7Siii then. Adapter, your Canon glass and boom?

I came so close to it being one of these the other week purely for video with a pair of whatever the rangefinderesque thing is, A7C or something...purely for stills and scrap the whole hybrid in one body approach.

But the cost killed it mainly for me and it offered no other advantages to me other than in the AF department.

It’s actually quite a tricky balance when you have very specific needs!

Actually I already have a great real estate camera...the GH5, I don't do enough real estate videos to warrant a new camera, and if the 10mm Rokinon works for me, I'll sell the GH5 since real estate is the only thing I haven't figured out yet. In my area there's not enough high end real estate properties being sold with agents willing to pay for video to justify spending much in that area, and the big commercial real estate work (which does pay quite well) has slowed down a lot right now.

I agree, every camera is a compromise in some area; its just a matter of finding one that is the least compromised in the areas that matter to you for  your specific needs. For me with the S5 the forward/backward AF tracking and having to buy into a new lens mount if I want any form of continuous AF are the only two compromises that affect me.

[TomTheDP]

4 hours ago, kye said:

I guess we're getting into tricky territory here, but I have the rather unpopular opinion of only caring about the user experience and the image.  My passion for the size of the sensor is about the same as my passion for the number of letters in the part number of the audio processing chip - both have virtually no impact on the end result!

It’s more about the limitations of the current Sony sensors. The jump from m43 to full frame is noticeable. Jumping from S35 to full frame less so though it’s still noticeable. Now compare full frame Panasonic to S35 red or Arri and it’s a completely different ballpark. I see it as the best route in the budget Sony sensor market at the moment. But that’s coming from someone who makes money as a DP. If I was doing YouTube or just doing this as a hobby than it’s pointless to chase IQ, unless you just have deep pockets.

[PannySVHS]

Would love some external BRAW with the S1 for the perfect Davinci workflow! Any rumours when the update is to be expected?

[kye]

5 hours ago, TomTheDP said:

It’s more about the limitations of the current Sony sensors. The jump from m43 to full frame is noticeable. Jumping from S35 to full frame less so though it’s still noticeable. Now compare full frame Panasonic to S35 red or Arri and it’s a completely different ballpark. I see it as the best route in the budget Sony sensor market at the moment. But that’s coming from someone who makes money as a DP. If I was doing YouTube or just doing this as a hobby than it’s pointless to chase IQ, unless you just have deep pockets.

That makes sense about it being about how good the sensors are.  The GH5 sensor must be getting old now..

In terms of colour science, if you're good enough then anything can be made to look like anything, but the problem is that those levels of skill are pretty rare, even amongst professional colourists!

I would also suggest that the pursuit of IQ can be had either by having deep pockets or by being radically inconvenienced - there are some older cinema cameras that look great (for example the F3, BMMCC, etc) but compared to a modern DSLR/MILC they're a royal PITA.

[BjornT]

Anyone on here using S1 and S5 together as A and B cam? Pics below had identical camera settings and grade (the tighter shot is the S5 with the Lumix 85mm 1.8 and the wider shot the S1 with the lumix pro 24-70 2.8 at 70mm). Both are shot in Vlog and running latest firmware.

S5 is bluer and a tad brighter overall. I know lens makes a bit of difference but am quite surprised to see such differences considering it is supposedly the same sensor. One can make them match fairly easily in post at least but curious to hear if other people on this forum have noticed as I find very little online.

 

[Mark Romero 2]

26 minutes ago, BjornT said:

Anyone on here using S1 and S5 together as A and B cam? Pics below had identical camera settings and grade (the tighter shot is the S5 with the Lumix 85mm 1.8 and the wider shot the S1 with the lumix pro 24-70 2.8 at 70mm). Both are shot in Vlog and running latest firmware.

S5 is bluer and a tad brighter overall. I know lens makes a bit of difference but am quite surprised to see such differences considering it is supposedly the same sensor. One can make them match fairly easily in post at least but curious to hear if other people on this forum have noticed as I find very little online.

 

Hmmm... i would definitely try switching the lenses around to see how much of a difference the lenses are making. 

[MrSMW]

My clients probably wouldn’t notice but why I don’t like to mix brands of anything...and this is even within the brand!

[Mark Romero 2]

So firstly, this is shot with an S1 instead of an S5, but since the sensor and codecs are the same (I have the V-LOG upgrade on my S1), I think it gives a pretty good representation of what sort of dynamic range you can expect from an S5. Please note that the sun streaming in the windows was REALLY strong as was the sunlight bouncing off the bay.

 Anyway, I have questionable grading skills and poor gimbal technique, but Panasonic V-Log with the new DaVinci Wide Gamut makes it pretty easy to get a lot of DR out of the footage. (Internal 4K 30p 10-ibt 4:2:2 slowed to 23.976fps on the timeline, and exported as 1080p)

PS: If anyone knows why I have so much rolling shutter on my drone footage, please let me know... I think the shutter speed might be too high since I misplaced the ND filter for my drone camera (Phantom 3 advanced shooting in 2.7K at 30fps slowed to 23.976fps on the timeline).

 

[TomTheDP]

12 hours ago, BjornT said:

Anyone on here using S1 and S5 together as A and B cam? Pics below had identical camera settings and grade (the tighter shot is the S5 with the Lumix 85mm 1.8 and the wider shot the S1 with the lumix pro 24-70 2.8 at 70mm). Both are shot in Vlog and running latest firmware.

S5 is bluer and a tad brighter overall. I know lens makes a bit of difference but am quite surprised to see such differences considering it is supposedly the same sensor. One can make them match fairly easily in post at least but curious to hear if other people on this forum have noticed as I find very little online.

 

I honestly think its the lens. Maybe I am wrong though.

[HockeyFan12]

On 1/18/2021 at 2:10 PM, BjornT said:

Anyone on here using S1 and S5 together as A and B cam? Pics below had identical camera settings and grade (the tighter shot is the S5 with the Lumix 85mm 1.8 and the wider shot the S1 with the lumix pro 24-70 2.8 at 70mm). Both are shot in Vlog and running latest firmware.

S5 is bluer and a tad brighter overall. I know lens makes a bit of difference but am quite surprised to see such differences considering it is supposedly the same sensor. One can make them match fairly easily in post at least but curious to hear if other people on this forum have noticed as I find very little online.

 

What firmware versions do you have and have you double checked white balance settings and followed up on this?

The S1 and S1H I always found too magenta (by a lot) with V Log so it would be a welcome relief if the newer firmware has a greener tint, as the below image does.

[BjornT]

Both are on latest FW (the december one) and both set to same f stop, 640 iso, 180 degree shutter and 5600K.

It is not the lens but the cameras. Here are pics with same lens taken less than a minute apart. S5 definitely less magenta (which I prefer but not for matching). S5 is also just a tad brighter. All fixable in post fairly easily but annoying nonetheless.

The pic that has the cage around the camera is the S1 and the other is the S5