Panasonic S5 User Experience

[Michael S]

20 hours ago, Geoffrey said:

Live cropping mode.

Anyone used this? I tested it out and it works quite well but I was wondering is it really doing anything that you could not do in post anyway?

The camera is recording with a particular bandwith, regardless of crop. This implies that if you record say 4K at 100mbs and crop to an HD size in post, you are throwing 75% of your used bandwith away, leaving an HD image at 25mbs. If you crop directly to HD size in camera and record at 100mbs, you get a HD image recorded at a max bandwith of 100mbs.

I'm not sure if the camera actually uses 100mbs in such a case. As the HD crop in camera is likely to have less detail, the actual bandwith used might be less then 100mbs. For all practical purposes it might not matter much, if your uncropped footage looks good from the start.

[Geoffrey]

19 hours ago, Michael S said:

The camera is recording with a particular bandwith, regardless of crop. This implies that if you record say 4K at 100mbs and crop to an HD size in post, you are throwing 75% of your used bandwith away, leaving an HD image at 25mbs. If you crop directly to HD size in camera and record at 100mbs, you get a HD image recorded at a max bandwith of 100mbs.

I'm not sure if the camera actually uses 100mbs in such a case. As the HD crop in camera is likely to have less detail, the actual bandwith used might be less then 100mbs. For all practical purposes it might not matter much, if your uncropped footage looks good from the start.

Thanks for the detailed info Michael. The upshot is then that it will be better quality to do 'live' cropping in camera. 

What I should really do is practice doing smooth optical zooms as well though!

[Geoffrey]

I have a more general basic question for those experienced in such things.

Watching live TV panel interviews the other day I was wondering how they do the thing where they cut between a wide shot of the interviewee and close up of the same person but with exactly the same angle of view. It looks like it is the same camera as the angle is identical and this is why it works, rather that being a jump cut (I mean it sort of is but does not jar). Is it some kind of auto zoom that can be clicked when desired or is it two cameras somehow positioned so the angle is the same, and the cuts are done by the director in the control room? 

It is a very simple, standard technique but it occurred to me I did not know how it is done and it would be a useful thing for me on a project I am working on right now.

[Mark Romero 2]

7 hours ago, Geoffrey said:

I have a more general basic question for those experienced in such things.

Watching live TV panel interviews the other day I was wondering how they do the thing where they cut between a wide shot of the interviewee and close up of the same person but with exactly the same angle of view. It looks like it is the same camera as the angle is identical and this is why it works, rather that being a jump cut (I mean it sort of is but does not jar). Is it some kind of auto zoom that can be clicked when desired or is it two cameras somehow positioned so the angle is the same, and the cuts are done by the director in the control room? 

It is a very simple, standard technique but it occurred to me I did not know how it is done and it would be a useful thing for me on a project I am working on right now.

If it is done live, I am guessing that it is two cameras positioned closely together. If it wasn't live, I would guess they were shooting in 6K or 8K and then in post just doing a zoom in to 4K or 1080p resolution.

Maybe there is a way to punch in from the board, but there isn't a way to punch in while recording on the S-series cameras.

[herein2020]

On 12/1/2021 at 1:17 PM, Geoffrey said:

I had not thought about it like this so interesting. It does not really come up in the same way with what I do - I just need to frame the shot right and I only adjust frame size after occasionally, mainly due to a technical failure on my part!

 

I use this all the time, I shoot about 10+ fashion shows a year and as a OMB I am commissioned to do both the photography and video so for the walks there's really no other way to do it. I also use this to punch in and out when doing an interview without using two cameras. I will frame it so that its a medium wide shot at 4K but later I can punch in to make it a tight shot. 

The only annoying though is that without CAF you really need to nail that initial focus manually and use a wider aperture such as 4.0 to ensure that the subject is still in focus if they move forward or backward slightly. I have shot razor thin before at F1.4 but with that tiny screen and no CAF its pretty much impossible to keep the eye in focus if the subject moves at all.

[Geoffrey]

On 12/4/2021 at 8:38 PM, herein2020 said:

 

I use this all the time, I shoot about 10+ fashion shows a year and as a OMB I am commissioned to do both the photography and video so for the walks there's really no other way to do it. I also use this to punch in and out when doing an interview without using two cameras. I will frame it so that its a medium wide shot at 4K but later I can punch in to make it a tight shot. 

The only annoying though is that without CAF you really need to nail that initial focus manually and use a wider aperture such as 4.0 to ensure that the subject is still in focus if they move forward or backward slightly. I have shot razor thin before at F1.4 but with that tiny screen and no CAF its pretty much impossible to keep the eye in focus if the subject moves at all.

Yeah I still struggle sometimes with focussing on the S5. Mostly I get it right now but every shoot there is something that is not quite right. It is most difficult when the subject is backed by other detailed material and the focus peaking is just not kicking in properly. With just the naked eye, even with the the enlarged view I struggle, especially in certain light conditions. Autofocus is OK and I do use that but getting rid of that pulsing in the background seems impossible. Any tips on the fine settings for CAF?

[herein2020]

2 hours ago, Geoffrey said:

Yeah I still struggle sometimes with focussing on the S5. Mostly I get it right now but every shoot there is something that is not quite right. It is most difficult when the subject is backed by other detailed material and the focus peaking is just not kicking in properly. With just the naked eye, even with the the enlarged view I struggle, especially in certain light conditions. Autofocus is OK and I do use that but getting rid of that pulsing in the background seems impossible. Any tips on the fine settings for CAF?

I use all adapted EF lenses so I have no way to use CAF. For interviews, I switch to MF, punch in to focus, have the subject sit perfectly still, and manually focus until it is as sharp as it can get, then all I can hope is that they do not move much. A lot of times I'll shoot at ISO4000 just so that I can use F5.6 for more DOF to keep the subject in focus. That tiny screen like you said is very difficult to see and it does not help that the focus peaking is nearly always invisible.  All of the focusing problems really ruin an otherwise perfect camera. 

The focusing problems are why I keep eyeing cameras like the C70.

[Mark Romero 2]

On 12/7/2021 at 4:39 PM, herein2020 said:

I use all adapted EF lenses so I have no way to use CAF. For interviews, I switch to MF, punch in to focus, have the subject sit perfectly still, and manually focus until it is as sharp as it can get, then all I can hope is that they do not move much. A lot of times I'll shoot at ISO4000 just so that I can use F5.6 for more DOF to keep the subject in focus. That tiny screen like you said is very difficult to see and it does not help that the focus peaking is nearly always invisible.  All of the focusing problems really ruin an otherwise perfect camera. 

The focusing problems are why I keep eyeing cameras like the C70.

I have found AF-S to be pretty reliable, even in low light shooting V-LOG profile or in otherwise challenging situations. This is with my Canon EF 16-35 f/4 L on the Sigma MC-21 (along with my native Panasonic 24-105 f/4).

I basically rotate the switch on the back of the camera to MF but leave the AF / MF button on the lens set to AF.  Then I use back-button focus on the S5 (and S1) using the AF On button on the back of the camera.

With my eyesight is a challenge to check focus on the screen, but it does seem to work pretty well. Or I just use my rather inexpensive Portkeys monitor to help. 

[herein2020]

On 12/12/2021 at 11:38 AM, Mark Romero 2 said:

I have found AF-S to be pretty reliable, even in low light shooting V-LOG profile or in otherwise challenging situations. This is with my Canon EF 16-35 f/4 L on the Sigma MC-21 (along with my native Panasonic 24-105 f/4).

I basically rotate the switch on the back of the camera to MF but leave the AF / MF button on the lens set to AF.  Then I use back-button focus on the S5 (and S1) using the AF On button on the back of the camera.

With my eyesight is a challenge to check focus on the screen, but it does seem to work pretty well. Or I just use my rather inexpensive Portkeys monitor to help. 

I mainly use the Sigma EF 50mm  F1.4 nearly religously these days and AF-S is not great most of the time. I usually try it first, but many times it just won't lock on. With the 50mm I really like shooting detail shots and I do a lot of modeling shoots so usually the focus plane needs to be razor thin to focus on something as small as a bikini string or a design in the clothing and the focus really falls apart for those shots.  I have tried using the joystick and picking higher contrast areas, edges of objects, etc....nothng but failures most of the time.

Sometimes I think it is just because I am too close to the minimum focusing distance but then it won't even lock on to the model's face or wrist or something simple from farther away.  Also at events I need to lock on to all kinds of weird things like logos on glasses, signage, jewelry, static displays, a vendor pouring a drink, etc and it really struggles there too; so a lot of times I just go full manual which shouldn't be a big deal because my Voigtlander GH5 lenses were only manual; but the focus peaking and back screen on the S5 is worse than the GH5 so there's that problem.

Focusing all around with the S5 is a real PITA with EF lenses for my use cases; but it is just so good in every other area that I stick with it. My favorite is still the XLR adapter and being able to switch lenses back and fourth between my C200, 5D4 and S5. Focusing is easier with the Canon 24-105mm F4 and the Canon EF 24mm  F2.8 but those are wider lenses and deeper DOF so more things are natually in focus anyway. It's those detail shots with the 50mm which I need at every event that is the problem. Also with the 50mm handheld I am always shooting at 60PFS so that may contribut to the problem.

[kye]

45 minutes ago, herein2020 said:

I mainly use the Sigma EF 50mm  F1.4 nearly religously these days and AF-S is not great most of the time. I usually try it first, but many times it just won't lock on. With the 50mm I really like shooting detail shots and I do a lot of modeling shoots so usually the focus plane needs to be razor thin to focus on something as small as a bikini string or a design in the clothing and the focus really falls apart for those shots.  I have tried using the joystick and picking higher contrast areas, edges of objects, etc....nothng but failures most of the time.

Sometimes I think it is just because I am too close to the minimum focusing distance but then it won't even lock on to the model's face or wrist or something simple from farther away.  Also at events I need to lock on to all kinds of weird things like logos on glasses, signage, jewelry, static displays, a vendor pouring a drink, etc and it really struggles there too; so a lot of times I just go full manual which shouldn't be a big deal because my Voigtlander GH5 lenses were only manual; but the focus peaking and back screen on the S5 is worse than the GH5 so there's that problem.

Focusing all around with the S5 is a real PITA with EF lenses for my use cases; but it is just so good in every other area that I stick with it. My favorite is still the XLR adapter and being able to switch lenses back and fourth between my C200, 5D4 and S5. Focusing is easier with the Canon 24-105mm F4 and the Canon EF 24mm  F2.8 but those are wider lenses and deeper DOF so more things are natually in focus anyway. It's those detail shots with the 50mm which I need at every event that is the problem. Also with the 50mm handheld I am always shooting at 60PFS so that may contribut to the problem.

1080p EVF?  It would give you another point of contact too, so steadier shots and camera movement.

If you didn't want the Canon Cripple Hammer or the Sony Tax then just give up - if you want something done right then do it yourself.

[herein2020]

27 minutes ago, kye said:

1080p EVF?  It would give you another point of contact too, so steadier shots and camera movement.

If you didn't want the Canon Cripple Hammer or the Sony Tax then just give up - if you want something done right then do it yourself.

I have literally only looked through the EVF twice since I have owned the camera, no way could I use it for the movements and angles that I need; not to mention I still don't like EVFs. I think the best fix would be an external monitor but then there's having something else to charge, connect, remove for gimbal work, etc. I do have one but only use it for things like conferences where the A cam sits on a tripod and I can connect it to a V Mount battery.

I make it work, not complaining, the camera is great; but yes the AF is pretty bad. Of course I am using EF lenses and an adapter so I believe it would be better with native lenses but to me that's not even an option with my setup. 

Like you said...the only other options are the Canon Cripple Hammer, Sony isn't even an option to me, and the Nikon is on the same list as the Sony which leads me back to where I started. Funny thing is, if BlackMagic made an S5 equivalent but with Canon's AF they would actually be a serious contender for me.

[kye]

3 hours ago, herein2020 said:

I have literally only looked through the EVF twice since I have owned the camera, no way could I use it for the movements and angles that I need; not to mention I still don't like EVFs. I think the best fix would be an external monitor but then there's having something else to charge, connect, remove for gimbal work, etc. I do have one but only use it for things like conferences where the A cam sits on a tripod and I can connect it to a V Mount battery.

I make it work, not complaining, the camera is great; but yes the AF is pretty bad. Of course I am using EF lenses and an adapter so I believe it would be better with native lenses but to me that's not even an option with my setup. 

Like you said...the only other options are the Canon Cripple Hammer, Sony isn't even an option to me, and the Nikon is on the same list as the Sony which leads me back to where I started. Funny thing is, if BlackMagic made an S5 equivalent but with Canon's AF they would actually be a serious contender for me.

Haha, I drop into the S5 thread on page 38 and find someone talking about Panasonic AF with adapted lenses...  it certainly sounded like complaining 🙂

We should have a swear jar for when people start sentences with "If X made a camera with ......  "

All I think when someone says that is why stop there?  If you're going to make statements completely disconnected with reality then you may as well say "If Apple made a camera that supported apps, but had a FF sensor and Alexa DR and Colour Science and Phantom frame rates and it was the size of a GoPro and have it pair with the iPhone for social media and streaming and cost $12, I'd definitely buy it".

😆😆😆

[herein2020]

13 hours ago, kye said:

Haha, I drop into the S5 thread on page 38 and find someone talking about Panasonic AF with adapted lenses...  it certainly sounded like complaining 🙂

We should have a swear jar for when people start sentences with "If X made a camera with ......  "

All I think when someone says that is why stop there?  If you're going to make statements completely disconnected with reality then you may as well say "If Apple made a camera that supported apps, but had a FF sensor and Alexa DR and Colour Science and Phantom frame rates and it was the size of a GoPro and have it pair with the iPhone for social media and streaming and cost $12, I'd definitely buy it".

😆😆😆

If you scroll up you will see that @Geoffrey stated he was struggling with AF and asked for tips on preventing the pulsing, all I did was state that I use MF for focusing and list the challenges I have with it and adapted lenses. The challenges with Panasonic's DFD focusing system are well known so I don't bother bringing it up but if someone asks for how others are working around it, I have no problems sharing.

The camera is not perfect but it's as close to it for me as anything currently on the market so I just work within its limitations. I have mine set up to shoot everything I need, and it does that so complaining would be pointless.

[sandro]

Has anyone tried creating HDR content for YouTube (for HDR TVs of course) with the S5 using Vlog or HLG?

[Geoffrey]

This is a strange one and I suspect no-one will have come across it but I was doing some recording the other day using a Zoom H6 and the S5. I used the line out of the Zoom to connect into the camera so I had a guide track for synching the zoom audio in post. The Zoom line out is specifically designed for such a scenario (stated in the manual). But here's the thing, after careful tests and some head scratching I came to the unavoidable conclusion that the phase on any input into the Zoom was inverted once it is laid down as the S5 audio track.

The cable is an unbalanced 3.5mm so it cannot be that so that leaves either a problem with the Zoom line out (unlikely) or the S5 line input (more likely). Either way this is clearly a factory fault. There is nothing that can fix this at source and it is easy enough to invert the phase in post, and in fact mixing both signals in any final project is very unlikely anyway, but still, it should not be happening.

One other fairly obvious observation is that the noise floor of the 55 is noticeably higher than the Zoom which is pretty pleasingly quiet. This is not helped by the fact the Zoom line out is fixed at -10dB so you have to have the S5 at 0dB input at least. Anyone who cares about sound quality and is recording in a quiet environment would do very well not to use the S5 for sound unless you have a high quality mixer that enables you to lower the S5 input level to -6dB at least..

[Mark Romero 2]

On 12/15/2021 at 11:47 AM, Geoffrey said:

This is a strange one and I suspect no-one will have come across it but I was doing some recording the other day using a Zoom H6 and the S5. I used the line out of the Zoom to connect into the camera so I had a guide track for synching the zoom audio in post. The Zoom line out is specifically designed for such a scenario (stated in the manual). But here's the thing, after careful tests and some head scratching I came to the unavoidable conclusion that the phase on any input into the Zoom was inverted once it is laid down as the S5 audio track.

The cable is an unbalanced 3.5mm so it cannot be that so that leaves either a problem with the Zoom line out (unlikely) or the S5 line input (more likely). Either way this is clearly a factory fault. There is nothing that can fix this at source and it is easy enough to invert the phase in post, and in fact mixing both signals in any final project is very unlikely anyway, but still, it should not be happening.

One other fairly obvious observation is that the noise floor of the 55 is noticeably higher than the Zoom which is pretty pleasingly quiet. This is not helped by the fact the Zoom line out is fixed at -10dB so you have to have the S5 at 0dB input at least. Anyone who cares about sound quality and is recording in a quiet environment would do very well not to use the S5 for sound unless you have a high quality mixer that enables you to lower the S5 input level to -6dB at least..

Thanks for the heads up.

You have mentioned "line out" a few times and I just want to make sure that on the Zoom h6 you are changing the output level from line level to mic level output, right? (Page 85 of the h6 manual)

[herein2020]

On 12/15/2021 at 2:47 PM, Geoffrey said:

This is a strange one and I suspect no-one will have come across it but I was doing some recording the other day using a Zoom H6 and the S5. I used the line out of the Zoom to connect into the camera so I had a guide track for synching the zoom audio in post. The Zoom line out is specifically designed for such a scenario (stated in the manual). But here's the thing, after careful tests and some head scratching I came to the unavoidable conclusion that the phase on any input into the Zoom was inverted once it is laid down as the S5 audio track.

The cable is an unbalanced 3.5mm so it cannot be that so that leaves either a problem with the Zoom line out (unlikely) or the S5 line input (more likely). Either way this is clearly a factory fault. There is nothing that can fix this at source and it is easy enough to invert the phase in post, and in fact mixing both signals in any final project is very unlikely anyway, but still, it should not be happening.

One other fairly obvious observation is that the noise floor of the 55 is noticeably higher than the Zoom which is pretty pleasingly quiet. This is not helped by the fact the Zoom line out is fixed at -10dB so you have to have the S5 at 0dB input at least. Anyone who cares about sound quality and is recording in a quiet environment would do very well not to use the S5 for sound unless you have a high quality mixer that enables you to lower the S5 input level to -6dB at least..

 

I think the problem is you are using the 3.5mm input jack on the S5 vs the XLR module. For high quality audio I use the XLR module and with that I get the usual XLR gain granularity. I typically keep the S5 at -12dB when I have the XLR adapter attached and don't have a problem.

I also have an Azden shotgun mic for quick run and gun audio and it has a 0 -20 +20 option so with it set to +20 I am able to keep the S5 at -6 for most situations and that combination is pretty clean as well. I also have a MixPre 6 but I have never tried connecting its stereo out to the 3.5mm jack on the S5.

[Geoffrey]

19 hours ago, herein2020 said:

 

I think the problem is you are using the 3.5mm input jack on the S5 vs the XLR module. For high quality audio I use the XLR module and with that I get the usual XLR gain granularity. I typically keep the S5 at -12dB when I have the XLR adapter attached and don't have a problem.

I also have an Azden shotgun mic for quick run and gun audio and it has a 0 -20 +20 option so with it set to +20 I am able to keep the S5 at -6 for most situations and that combination is pretty clean as well. I also have a MixPre 6 but I have never tried connecting its stereo out to the 3.5mm jack on the S5.

This is true but using an XLR adapter and the Zoom seems overkill (and I don't have an XLR adapter). And it then also depends on the quality of the preamps in the XLR module.

I have a Juiced link 4-channel mixer which is great and low noise and you will be thinking just use that then! But the problem is I use 3 mics and mic phase issues between mics (ambient stereo pair and a  lavalier) have been a problem so I need to record them as separate tracks to fix in post, hence the Zoom H6. What I cannot do is raise the line out level of the Zoom as it is fixed at 0dB (which in fact means -10dB as stated). This is exacerbated by the S5 line input which is also set at -10dB, so overall you are losing 20 dB of signal.

But the phase inversion should not be happening either way. I need to do some more tests - I mean it could be the Zoom line out.

[Geoffrey]

21 hours ago, Mark Romero 2 said:

Thanks for the heads up.

You have mentioned "line out" a few times and I just want to make sure that on the Zoom h6 you are changing the output level from line level to mic level output, right? (Page 85 of the h6 manual)

I am not sure what you mean here Mark. Page 85 is not that in my version. The mini jack socket on the bottom of the Zoom is line out not mic. Maybe you mean the one on the detachable mic at the top? What you can do is lower the level of the line out considerably if needed to connect to a mic only camera input. But the S5 can swap between either. I did wonder if using the mic input on the S5, and lowering the Zoom output might help as maybe the chip is a better quality in the S5 (assuming they are different chips)? But that is a bit counter-intuitive, so doubt it.

[herein2020]

9 hours ago, Geoffrey said:

This is true but using an XLR adapter and the Zoom seems overkill (and I don't have an XLR adapter). And it then also depends on the quality of the preamps in the XLR module.

I have a Juiced link 4-channel mixer which is great and low noise and you will be thinking just use that then! But the problem is I use 3 mics and mic phase issues between mics (ambient stereo pair and a  lavalier) have been a problem so I need to record them as separate tracks to fix in post, hence the Zoom H6. What I cannot do is raise the line out level of the Zoom as it is fixed at 0dB (which in fact means -10dB as stated). This is exacerbated by the S5 line input which is also set at -10dB, so overall you are losing 20 dB of signal.

But the phase inversion should not be happening either way. I need to do some more tests - I mean it could be the Zoom line out.

 

That makes sense, I thought you only needed two channels of audio so I was recommending considering using just the XLR module. For more than 2 channels obviously you need a different solution.  That's strange that the output is fixed at -10dB, the MixPre's stereo out mix is fully adjustable.